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jimbrown

What if Jesus didn't die on the cross

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OK now.., don't throw stones!!!

What if Jesus didn't ever actually die on the cross?

When Simon went to collect the body Pilate was all like(and this is documented in your bible) he's already dead?
Death by crucifiction takes several days. Especially for a man as fit as Jesus who walked from town to town eating fish and figs, olives and bread.

Crucifiction was a long, cruel ,tortuous death. It took days not hours.
And Pilate would have known that. He would have known the expected amount of time one would have to hang on the cross before they expired.
Breaking the legs of the crucified would speed up the death but from the Biblical accounts we know(?) that His legs were not broken.

The lance thrust into his side and immediate expulsion of blood and water tends to support the heart still pumping!

Did Jesus die on the cross???

The Muslims believe that he did not die on the cross.
My research supports their belief.

He was seen after the crucifiction so surely he was not dead!

Peace,
Jim B



Going by what we know of Roman executions, the chances of anyone surviving are virtually slim to none. Going by the accounts in the gospels, absolutely not. The beating received was often enough to kill someone. The Roman flagrum (scourge) had barbs and weights woven into each strand that literally tore skin apart, muscle from bones, etc. Though the gospel accounts obviously show he did not die from the beating, the narration afterwards reads like someone who is hypovolemic (low blood). On top of that, the crucifixion obviously places even more strain on a failing body, which was alone designed to kill. Lastly, just to be sure, we have a centurion come along and stab Jesus in the side of his chest with a spear. Why was this done? To ensure that the prisoner was dead. Failure to ensure that the prisoner was dead (especially if he escaped) before he was cut down could and often meant the soldier in question would be put to death as well. The Roman in question had a very, very big incentive to ensure Jesus was dead, dead. Romans might have not been the best at everything, and didn't know the world as well as we do now, but you better believe they knew how to kill someone, and what a corpse looks like. Also, the explosion of blood and water is completely indicative of a failed heart, not a working one.
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

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I could have worked in a lucrative scientific field like you and earned a comparable income.

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I have NEVER worked in a "lucrative scientific field" as you just claimed. Your statement is false, like most of what you claim. TRY to make some sense here, Ron.

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You are just going in circles. Either you can't grasp the conversation or you are just being an ass. Good day.


If you wanted to know my line of work, all you had to do was ask. Instead, you made something up based on your erroneous perception. This fits your modus operandi perfectly. Because being called on it doesn't help you divert the conversation in your intended direction, you throw a hissy fit like a little girl and stomp off. Typical.
Feel free to admit you were wrong and take back some of your credibility.
"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

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Dunno....But, according to all hype in the news, he is gonna be here Saturday May 21st.

You should ask him....I presume he will be on his way from Chicago bound for New Orleans.

You may not see him in person. But, he'll see you just the same.;)

People are crazy. Cuz there's more of 'em.

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Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection. If jesus did not die on the cross and if he was not raised from the dead, then the whole thing is a sham and we are not forgiven of our sins. That would be very bad news for everyone.



No it wouldn't. That is amongst the most idiotic comments that you have posted so far.
Your assumptions are just plain ridicules.
If it is a sham, and it is, then you would not have to worry about being "saved".
Learn to use comprehension when you write.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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If you wanted to know my line of work, all you had to do was ask. Instead, you made something up based on your erroneous perception. This fits your modus operandi perfectly. Because being called on it doesn't help you divert the conversation in your intended direction, you throw a hissy fit like a little girl and stomp off. Typical.
Feel free to admit you were wrong and take back some of your credibility.



I'm kind of new here and don't know what your line of work is, so I can't make any assumptions as to the lucre. Please edify.

Thanks,

lisa
lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

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If you wanted to know my line of work, all you had to do was ask. Instead, you made something up based on your erroneous perception. This fits your modus operandi perfectly. Because being called on it doesn't help you divert the conversation in your intended direction, you throw a hissy fit like a little girl and stomp off. Typical.
Feel free to admit you were wrong and take back some of your credibility.



I'm kind of new here and don't know what your line of work is, so I can't make any assumptions as to the lucre. Please edify.

Thanks,

lisa


For most of my adult life I worked in the airline services industry(for my 9 to 5) and as a skydiving instructor on weekends. In 2007, I was diagnosed with Multiple Myeloma. Since treatment, I've started building a photography business and devoted much of my time volunteering at a place that feeds the homeless and needy. None of these lines of work could reasonably be described as "scientific" or "lucrative". I have no clue where RonD came up with what he said.
"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

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There is no (zero) secular evidence for the existence of JC. Books written by different authors (who never actually met him), at different times, with different agendas do not count as evidence and should not be taken literally. I say I DO NOT KNOW.



I have no doubt there was "a man" who was the basis for the Jesus narrative. To me it's painfully clear the story has been wildly exaggerated, parts made up much later out of nothing in an attempt to reconcile various versions and other bits outright stolen from other god myths, but somewhere in there is a kernel of truth about a radical philosopher who pissed off some Romans and got crucified for it. Not that it means much, there were an awful lot of them at the time.



There are still sightings of Elvis, too.
In 1000 years, Elvis, Michael Jackson, or John Lennon will be another Jesus, Mohammed, or...
Imagine.

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OK, follow closely, you think I saved myself and delivered myself from addictions. If that were true, then I would be very intelligent. If I were that intelligent I could have worked in a lucrative scientific field like you and earned a comparable income.

There you go, make sense now?



I know that didn't make sense to me.

It's great that you overcame your addictions, and if you need to feel that God was responsible for that, I almost feel bad arguing against it, since clearly the concept of God has helped you.

But that said, there are people who overcome addictions all over the world and they do it often by finding something that inspires them to stop and that they draw their power from.

In your case it may have been the concept of God, in other cases it's the idea of doing it for one's child, or a friend. There are people of all religions too, who overcome their problems through the concept of their God. God isn't an entity in this case, God is anything - God could be your dog. It's any single thing that inspires one to change. To say that it has to be a supernatural being that causes it, well that's just untrue.

There is no correlation between overcoming addiction and one's career and income levels. It doesn't take a genius to be dedicated to something. As an addict you are dedicated to whatever it is you're addicted to, the problem is just that your passion and dedication is in something destructive - in your recovery, you're channelling that passion and dedication into something more healthy, in your case it was 'God'.

It seems you think you needed God to overcome what you did. Why is it that you feel as though you're not strong enough to do it yourself - it seems like you have an unfounded lack of self-esteem in this regard. It was all you who did it, just using the concept of God for help. I urge you to take some of that respect and appreciation you have for God, and place it on yourself instead.

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I know that didn't make sense to me.

It's great that you overcame your addictions, and if you need to feel that God was responsible for that, I almost feel bad arguing against it, since clearly the concept of God has helped you.

But that said, there are people who overcome addictions all over the world and they do it often by finding something that inspires them to stop and that they draw their power from.

In your case it may have been the concept of God, in other cases it's the idea of doing it for one's child, or a friend. There are people of all religions too, who overcome their problems through the concept of their God. God isn't an entity in this case, God is anything - God could be your dog. It's any single thing that inspires one to change. To say that it has to be a supernatural being that causes it, well that's just untrue.

There is no correlation between overcoming addiction and one's career and income levels. It doesn't take a genius to be dedicated to something. As an addict you are dedicated to whatever it is you're addicted to, the problem is just that your passion and dedication is in something destructive - in your recovery, you're channelling that passion and dedication into something more healthy, in your case it was 'God'.

It seems you think you needed God to overcome what you did. Why is it that you feel as though you're not strong enough to do it yourself - it seems like you have an unfounded lack of self-esteem in this regard. It was all you who did it, just using the concept of God for help. I urge you to take some of that respect and appreciation you have for God, and place it on yourself instead.



A very thoughtful and positive response. Your POV is very much inline with the AA/NA 12 Step Program.

However, in my case I was privately studying my Bible in an attitude of prayer. The Lord gave me the clear understanding of the body as the temple of the Lord. I was forever changed in my thinking processes and instantly delivered from the desire to use.

The 12 Step Program is essentially a method for dealing with the recurring cravings. They can last a lifetime for some folks.

I have never had a craving since my deliverance.

It appears you are successfully dealing with some of your anger. I am working through some issues at this time as well.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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There are still sightings of Elvis, too.
In 1000 years, Elvis, Michael Jackson, or John Lennon will be another Jesus, Mohammed, or...
Imagine.



I see what ya did there:D:D:D




Hey Ron, 21 years CnS and G>O>D> had fuck all to do with it.
I didn't pick up a drink or a drug One Day At A Time.
I would hazzard a guess and say YOU Dont pick up One Day A A Time either..


Nothing what so ever to do with Mythology mate.:)YOUR clean and sober time too mate,:)
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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Hey Ron, 21 years CnS and G>O>D> had fuck all to do with it.
I didn't pick up a drink or a drug One Day At A Time.
I would hazzard a guess and say YOU Dont pick up One Day A A Time either..


Nothing what so ever to do with Mythology mate.:)YOUR clean and sober time too mate,:)



;)Keep on, keepin' on. Good luck.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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There is no (zero) secular evidence for the existence of JC. Books written by different authors (who never actually met him), at different times, with different agendas do not count as evidence and should not be taken literally. I say I DO NOT KNOW.



I have no doubt there was "a man" who was the basis for the Jesus narrative. To me it's painfully clear the story has been wildly exaggerated, parts made up much later out of nothing in an attempt to reconcile various versions and other bits outright stolen from other god myths, but somewhere in there is a kernel of truth about a radical philosopher who pissed off some Romans and got crucified for it. Not that it means much, there were an awful lot of them at the time.



There are still sightings of Elvis, too.
In 1000 years, Elvis, Michael Jackson, or John Lennon will be another Jesus, Mohammed, or...
Imagine.



Elvis would be a good comparison. Pretend Elvis' body was seen by countless people, including his OD and burial. Also pretend that lots of people who have a vested interest in saying and keeping Elvis dead, confirm he's dead. They also put Elvis' grave site under guard to keep would-be thieves away, like those sneaky Elvistians who are now in fear for their lives and are in hiding. What if on Aug 18, 1977 Elvis' grave was found empty and people started seeing him? Claiming they touched him? Claiming that Elivs is indeed back from the dead? What if, this "madness" grew where hundreds and thousands of people see and say the same thing. Not only are they saying it, but they are losing their lives over it, refusing to say, "I made it up" or "Maybe I didn't really see Elvis alive." (The people who really liked the Beatles, for example, may want to see these Elvistians stoned, torn up by lions and dogs, lit on fire, etc). To top it off, some of these hardened Beatlites, ones who use to hate Elvis for all they were worth, suddenly start talking like these crazy Elvisitans saying that they too saw Elvis...

If we're going to really go all out with the analogy, these Elvistians would have to have nothing to gain at the time (no one was getting money or power claiming to be a Christian in the first century) and had everything to lose. At some point you have to say, these people really did think they saw Elvis, as no one dies for a lie they know is false when there isn't any gain involved. Before anyone jumps on other religions, other beliefs, etc. A key difference when thinking about our Elvistians (or the first generation Christians) is that our Elvistians aren't claiming that they believe Elvis was raised from the dead, they are saying, "Hey! On Aug 18, 1977 I saw Elvis with my own eyes! I touched him! I ate with him! We sat and talked for a long, long time, etc." at which point someone might say, "If you keep saying that, I'm going to cut your head off. You sure you don't want to just say you were wrong or maybe mistaken?" The liar recants. The transformed, the one who honestly believes what they saw, holds fast. You might be able to account for a stray incident here and there, but when its happening to countless (thousands) of people, all that were alive when Jesus died, when the nation is being transformed rapidly despite the gov'ts attempt to blast it out, *something* had to have happened to account for it all.

While people as a whole obviously don't reach the same conclusion as to what that something might be 2k years ago, current Elvis sightings 34 years later are only superficially similar at best.
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

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Yeah but, Elvis didn't die on the cross....He died on the toilet.



I saw multiple Elvises, parachuting even. Pick any three and you have a Trinity.



I even heard of a Monkey-Spankin' Elvis.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Our father who art in Graceland
Elvis be thy name
Thy singing come, thy dance be done
On earth as it is in Heaven
Give us this day, our blue suede shoes
And forgive us our cruelty
As we forgive those who are cruel towards us
And lead us not into a bathroom stall
But deliver us from obesity
For thou is the King, the power and the glory
Forever and ever – Uh huh.


Slow day...

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To say that it has to be a supernatural being that causes it, well that's just untrue.



This is the thing that gets me...non-believers are quick to say FALSE when they have no proof to support their claim.
The non-believers always point to the lack of "proof" that God exists and until they get it, the believers are "wrong".

How can anyone legitimately say either side is wrong?

Meh...for me, the debate isn't something to get all wadded up about. Non-believers can, and often are, even more fanatical about their life philosophy than believers are...go figure.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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This is the thing that gets me...non-believers are quick to say FALSE when they have no proof to support their claim.
The non-believers always point to the lack of "proof" that God exists and until they get it, the believers are "wrong".

How can anyone legitimately say either side is wrong?

Meh...for me, the debate isn't something to get all wadded up about. Non-believers can, and often are, even more fanatical about their life philosophy than believers are...go figure.



Notice the words "HAS TO BE" in your quote. There is no way anyone can honestly believe that say in this example, God is the only way for one to overcome addiction.

Because to say that something NEEDS God to occur is different than saying that God may have been responsible for it (that was the discussion, I wanted an example of something that is impossible to occur within the realms of understood science).

If I throw a basketball through a hoop, would you say that this is just the result of physics and luck or would you say that this is something that God made happen?

Because what you're saying is that such a claim is completely equal on both sides. That the person saying it was God who put the ball in the basket has just as much validity as the person saying it was just what is.

I'm not even asking for proof. I'm asking for a simple situation where a so-called miracle needs to be an action from God and not just a natural occurrence.

This is the problem, everybody wants to claim God helped them in everything. All this does is cheapen so-called miracles.

"I passed my exam, it's a miracle - God helped me!"

"I managed to slip and fall without dying! God was watching over me clearly!"

"I managed to puke this morning without getting any in my hair, OH GOD IS SO GOOD!"


People just love the idea that God is responsible for anything positive that happens. And if it's negative? Well then it was either his will and we can't see his intentions, or it was the devil.

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Our father who art in Graceland
Elvis be thy name
Thy singing come, thy dance be done
On earth as it is in Heaven
Give us this day, our blue suede shoes
And forgive us our cruelty
As we forgive those who are cruel towards us
And lead us not into a bathroom stall
But deliver us from obesity
For thou is the King, the power and the glory
Forever and ever – Uh huh.Thank you, Thank you very much.


Slow day...



FIFY :)
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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It's great that you overcame your addictions, and if you need to feel that God was responsible for that, I almost feel bad arguing against it, since clearly the concept of God has helped you.



I agree with the basis of your whole post actually. Positive reaction to the world is to create coping mechanisms that work for the individual. Faith might be one that's pretty effective.

If so, then why all the abuse on this website trying to belittle and destroy those supports from people that need it by those that have something else that works for them?

rockclimbing.com seems to obsess over it and it's pretty much destroyed a good speaker's corner - it's starting to happen here now - it's goofy and petty

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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...If so, then why all the abuse on this website trying to belittle and destroy those supports from people that need it by those that have something else that works for them?

rockclimbing.com seems to obsess over it and it's pretty much destroyed a good speaker's corner - it's starting to happen here now - it's goofy and petty



I don't try to belittle and destroy the faith of anyone on here. I simply question it. The logic and reasoning behind it.

I also really question those that ignore science because their faith says something different. Or their interpretation of their faith (or what they were told to believe by someone else, which is essentially the same thing). The ones who have found the "One True Faith" are a group that I like to ask "Why?" Why are they right and everyone else is wrong?

The "True Believers" hate the question "Why?" They usually only have the "Because I Said So" answer (or "Becuase I Was Told So And You Should Believe It Too"). I'm still waiting for an answer as to why the Bible is literally, factually true. I asked the question repeatedly in a now deleted thread and never got an answer.

And I question the hypocrites, especially those who proclaim their faith in Jesus, and how they have been "SAVED" by him, yet are willing to do some pretty ugly things to their fellow humans because of "war". (yes, I am referring to someone specifically).
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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