Dealing with the half-educated

[kallend 1,621]

www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=571523&p=1

Engineering and science students have to to take courses in humanities and social sciences. It always bugged me that the "soft" majors required almost nothing in the way of math, science and engineering.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[marks2065 0]

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www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=571523&p=1

Engineering and science students have to to take courses in humanities and social sciences. It always bugged me that the "soft" majors required almost nothing in the way of math, science and engineering.

You need to talk to the school boards, why are english math and sience being cut to make time for spanish, music, and humanities?

[billvon 2,384]

>You need to talk to the school boards, why are english math and sience
>being cut to make time for spanish, music, and humanities?

As the article (and John) points out, you need both. Maintaining a balance is important, as in everything else.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=571523&p=1

Engineering and science students have to to take courses in humanities and social sciences. It always bugged me that the "soft" majors required almost nothing in the way of math, science and engineering.

why, you'd ruin their GPAs if you did that
and then they'd be sad.......

whereas in the current status, if you send an engineer to take soft electables.......you still ruin the curve for the softies
and then they get sad.........

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shah269 0]

Why?
No really why?
Why study engineering, math or science?
I know I know
Per Mr. Duncan the Education Secretary
"We have over two million unfilled HIGH WAGE, high skilled jobs...."

Ah hu! Sir, what do you call HIGH WAGE?
Let's start from the top shall we?
Here is what you get if you decide to go into the file of science or engineering.
1) 100 dudes - 5 chicks
As a young man this is a serious issue! As a young lady...it's a serious issue!

2) LESS THAN 10% of your professors will speak English. As a first second or a third language.

3) Your classes will be taught by TA's who only speak the professors language and not yours.

4) You will pay very good money for books you will never read and lab fees for which you will never understand. Basically you will be paying well over $30k a year to have the Dell Help Desk out of India attempting to teach you thermo dynamics.

5) The classes are designed not to educate you or to inform you rather to haze the living shit out of you. Semester #1 50% of the class is failed. Semester #2 another 50% this will go on until the day of graduation.

6) You work your ass off studying trying not to fail...remember those 5 chicks....yeah you think you have a sex life? A love life? Hell any kind of life? HA FUCK NO!

7) You graduate! And let's say you are really ambitious and you got a MS in Engineering...you just invested well over $100k in your education...how much do you think you will get paid?
In the DOD in NY/NJ? $60k a year. And you will most likely only make 2% more per year if congress likes you. And as such why should any company pay you anymore? And if they do it will be just a tad bit more than what the base line is which is set by the largest employer of engineers and scientists.

So to recap, you basically join the toughest frat house on campus. Survive 4 years of brutal hazing and harsh living standards only to get out and find out that your frat matches up with the Omega Moos and that well the benefits are shit...


So why should any guy study science or math or engineering?


Any woman who doesn't wish to shave her legs or buy new clothes or ever watch what she eats...lots of reasons to study the sciences.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[DanG 1]

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1) 100 dudes - 5 chicks
As a young man this is a serious issue! As a young lady...it's a serious issue!

Pro-tip: You don't have to date/marry another engineer.

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2) LESS THAN 10% of your professors will speak English. As a first second or a third language.

Stereotypical, and not true.

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3) Your classes will be taught by TA's who only speak the professors language and not yours.

See above.

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4) You will pay very good money for books you will never read and lab fees for which you will never understand. Basically you will be paying well over $30k a year to have the Dell Help Desk out of India attempting to teach you thermo dynamics.

I still use my textbooks as references regularly. BTW, if you didn't actually read your books, you were probably not much of a student.

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5) The classes are designed not to educate you or to inform you rather to haze the living shit out of you. Semester #1 50% of the class is failed. Semester #2 another 50% this will go on until the day of graduation.

You school sounds like it sucked. Or maybe, once again, you weren't much of a student.

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6) You work your ass off studying trying not to fail...remember those 5 chicks....yeah you think you have a sex life? A love life? Hell any kind of life? HA FUCK NO!

Yeah, engineering school is time consuming. If you don't like it, go get an English degree.

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7) You graduate! And let's say you are really ambitious and you got a MS in Engineering...you just invested well over $100k in your education...how much do you think you will get paid?
In the DOD in NY/NJ? $60k a year. And you will most likely only make 2% more per year if congress likes you. And as such why should any company pay you anymore? And if they do it will be just a tad bit more than what the base line is which is set by the largest employer of engineers and scientists.

Hmm, I made over that right out of school with a BS. And I've gotten way more that 2% raises per year since. In the private sector, good work gets rewarded.

You sound like you hate engineering. Maybe you schould get into another line of work and leave the hard stuff to the rest of us.

- Dan G

[shah269 0]

Why should any company pay any engineer or scientist more than what the feds pay?
You pay your people the "going market rate".
In the sciences...that is set by the DOD the largest employer of scientists and engineers in the US?

The same can't be said about those with an advanced education in business. The going market rate of pay is set by the open market.

I went to a state school and graduaed with a little over a 3.0

Best thing I did was take as many psych and humanities clases I could. Why? Prespective.
And unlike the crazy ass girls in engineering...these girls were nice, and well dressed and my god...they had friends who were interesting!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Remster 24]

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Why should any company pay any engineer or scientist more than what the feds pay?

Huh?

Typically, the private sectors pays more than public jobs. What the public sector has is great benefits, which typically suck in the private world.

Yes, there are exceptions...


And for god's sake... Give it a rest with the girls of engineering. We get it. That part of your life sucked.

Remster

[shah269 0]

What the public sector has is great benefits
YOU ARE FREAKING KIDDING ME RIGHT!
NO REALLY! YOU ARE KIDDING ME!
Have you read what I as a federal employee get as my "benefits"?
Pension....nope! 401k...and not a good one.
Health...only if you are broken but not if you just aren't feeling well.
Eyes? Dental? HA! Discount plan!

I know guys who's wives work for the larger lending institutions and who forgo the Govt healthcare for what their wife gets is leaps and bounds higher than what we get.

There is no reason why any one of their sound mind nor body, as in one who wishes to have the greatest return on their investment, enroll in a higher institution of learning for the sciences.
It just does not pay. When you account the time and capital invested...it just does not pay!

And in the end, right before HR, what part of a company do you think is killed off so as to improve the bottom line?
I'll give you a hint...it's not those with MBA's or those that practice financial engineering.

If you absolutely and truly love the field than great. If not...why?
Why go though the hazing just to end up with no prestige, finite pay ceiling and....and all that fun stuff?

What kid wants to hear, OK you are going to work your ass off, have angry teachers who do not speak your language and think that you are the scum of the earth, and dating with in your field....ha! Oh and most of your friends who enter won't stick around past week 5.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[DanG 1]

With all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I got a few job offers right out of E-school. The private sector job I took was $20k higher than the equivalent .gov job. Our company is currently going through a ton of cost cutting measures to improve efficiency. The jobs that are getting cut are HR, accounting, secretarial, you know, overhead. Engineering is not overhead to an engineering company, it is profit. You don't cut profit to save money.

Geez, I though you were getting an MBA. You should think about what you're saying before you say it.

- Dan G

[shah269 0]

OK, so the company paid an amazing %20 more than the market rate. OK that's cool.

Now I don't want to offend you but you do know that a company any company can just about move 100% of its engineering off shore to SEA and save all that R&D money?

#1 rule of doing business...reduce your operating expenses and the cost of your capital investments.

Sell off or mothball it's R&D open up shop in SEA pay the engineers and scientists who graduated from US universities 1/4th what the average going rate is and live the high life.

Financial engineering trumps actual engineering when it comes to squeezing blood from a stone. Nothing new has been invented in well over 50 years. Things have gotten faster smaller and more efficient.

You want to make a product improvement? Slap a screen on it have it go on line and sell it in different colors.

I'm sorry....the investment is just not worth the return.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[RonD1120 58]

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www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=571523&p=1

Engineering and science students have to to take courses in humanities and social sciences. It always bugged me that the "soft" majors required almost nothing in the way of math, science and engineering.

APTITUDE...

Not everyone has what it takes to be an engineer or scientist.

All the really wealthy people I've known in my life have little to no college at all. If they did go to college, academics was a low priority.

I had a short employment with Tampa Electric, following my graduation from USF, working with and for engineers. My alcoholism soared to the destructive level during that period. It was like working with a bunch of robots.

Previously, I had been an air traffic controller in the USAF. We enjoyed each other's company on the job. I thought I would find that same camaraderie with a BA. WRONG!

Edit to remove profane adjective

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[champu 1]

Your posts to this thread are completely at odds with my experience in and since school. The only thing I can agree with is that taking psych and humanities were a good source of perspective, but not just about the women in attendance.

The non-engineering courses I took (all in undergrad) were... chem, psychology, microecon, philosophy, world music, microbio, natural resources, and the history of western science. Everything else was physics, engineering, math, or computer science. I haven't taken a literature or foreign language course since high school.

[shah269 0]

Ron,
It's not their fault. The guys had their humanity stripped from them.
You can't do what it takes to be an engineer and come out the other side with your humanity in tacked.
You come out...damaged.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[randompoints 0]

not my experience at all. of course I did it a bit different, took the army to college route so no student loans (thank u GI bill, army college fund).
Great Pay, Great Benefits working for private sector. One of the large evil corporations everyone whines about. they sure do well by me.. maybe it’s not the engineering but the location? I wouldn't work North East everything has been so union it makes really hard for people right out school

hope you find something you like better

[shah269 0]

I'm going for my MBA and look forward to leaving the field of engineering.
But that's just me

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[jakee 1,254]

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I'm sorry....the investment is just not worth the return.

And yet there are still numerous private sector engineers employed within the USA. You appear to be arguing your economic theory as if it can trump reality.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Ron,
It's not their fault. The guys had their humanity stripped from them.
You can't do what it takes to be an engineer and come out the other side with your humanity in tacked.
You come out...damaged.

Really? My humanity is every bit as sound now as it was before University.
During one semester I was on the Dean's List (the good list), recieved a $2000 grant from the Technologies dept., placed 2nd in the English departments short story fiction contest, and was invited to display a series of B&W photos...all as a result of the classes I took that semester. All electives, none were required. Courses included a writing class, a photography class, two math classes and two engineering classes.
I never saw a liberal arts major in any of my math, science, or engineering classes during my entire college career.
Still think my humanity suffered?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Why?
No really why?
Why study engineering, math or science?

It suits some people's interests + aptitudes very well and still pays relatively well because it doesn't suit a lot of people's interests + aptitudes and willingness to clear the educational hurdles compared to the demand. I really like it (software), as did my father (chemical), grand father (electrical), and great grandfather (technically a geophysicist but he applied it to finding oil which is engineering).

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Here is what you get if you decide to go into the file of science or engineering.
1) 100 dudes - 5 chicks

I'm surprised your school had so many women for so few guys. There were three (four if you count the woman studying for a BFA in piano performance who decided it'd be fun to also study computer science) of them for a few hundred of us in the undergraduate computer science program in the college of engineering although it didn't matter because we could hang out with women from other colleges (notably Arts and Sciences which we referred to as Arts and Parties).

The University even had clubs (like ski/snowboard) which went on co-ed trips and didn't bar engineers from non-engineering courses (there were lots of women in my Contemporary International Film course in the film school and creative writing course in the English department of the school of arts and science) which would even provide elective credits towards a degree.

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2) LESS THAN 10% of your professors will speak English. As a first second or a third language.

Instead of slacking in highschool I got the introductory engineering curriculum generally taught in big lecture halls out of the way apart from third semester calculus with Professor Chakavarty who was so bad his TA quit and third semester physics where I had an American professor. I avoided the last of those messes by taking my final math class in the arts and sciences math department where we had 30 something people instead of 300 in the college of engineering; that professor was American too.

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3) Your classes will be taught by TA's who only speak the professors language and not yours.

All of them were taught by at least associate professors apart from multi-variable calculus where Dr. Chakavarty was technically the instructor but we learned more from our original and replacement TAs at the recitations.

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4) You will pay very good money for books you will never read and lab fees for which you will never understand. Basically you will be paying well over $30k a year to have the Dell Help Desk out of India attempting to teach you thermo dynamics.

That's paying too much since after your first job it doesn't matter where you went to school and you're not going to make an extra $75-$100K in the first few years because of it (unless you meet a co-founder at school, do something entrepeneurial, and manage to hit a home run in spite of limited experience but that's unlikely enough I wouldn't plan on it. You're better off getting out into industry, gaining some experience, and joining people who've built businesses before and aren't going to make rookie mistakes that lead to smoking craters).

My alma matter still charges state residents only $7700 a year and they're free to pickup the introductory courses at community colleges for thousands less than that.

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5) The classes are designed not to educate you or to inform you rather to haze the living shit out of you. Semester #1 50% of the class is failed. Semester #2 another 50% this will go on until the day of graduation.

I learned a lot that I use frequently.

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7) You graduate! And let's say you are really ambitious and you got a MS in Engineering...you just invested well over $100k in your education...how much do you think you will get paid?
In the DOD in NY/NJ? $60k a year. And you will most likely only make 2% more per year if congress likes you

Your problem comes from working for the government and is not universal.

Google had enough problems hiring new graduates that their starting salary is now $90,000 - $105,000 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/technology/26recruit.html?partner=rss&emc=rss.

The raises aren't bad either - I've worked for a couple of companies where the CEO called me into his office, said "You're doing a great job!" and gave me a 7-10% salary bump plus more stock.

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And as such why should any company pay you anymore?

Because I have a long history of doing things for them that engineers earning lower salaries don't.

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So to recap, you basically join the toughest frat house on campus. Survive 4 years of brutal hazing and harsh living standards only to get out and find out that your frat matches up with the Omega Moos and that well the benefits are shit...

I married a sexy wife who's also an engineer (a Bell Labs alumni no less). My engineering friends all did well too, although lots married non-technical people.

[Guest]

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Why?
No really why?
Why study engineering, math or science?
I know I know
Per Mr. Duncan the Education Secretary
"We have over two million unfilled HIGH WAGE, high skilled jobs...."

Ah hu! Sir, what do you call HIGH WAGE?
Let's start from the top shall we?
Here is what you get if you decide to go into the file of science or engineering.
1) 100 dudes - 5 chicks
As a young man this is a serious issue! As a young lady...it's a serious issue!

2) LESS THAN 10% of your professors will speak English. As a first second or a third language.

3) Your classes will be taught by TA's who only speak the professors language and not yours.

4) You will pay very good money for books you will never read and lab fees for which you will never understand. Basically you will be paying well over $30k a year to have the Dell Help Desk out of India attempting to teach you thermo dynamics.

5) The classes are designed not to educate you or to inform you rather to haze the living shit out of you. Semester #1 50% of the class is failed. Semester #2 another 50% this will go on until the day of graduation.

6) You work your ass off studying trying not to fail...remember those 5 chicks....yeah you think you have a sex life? A love life? Hell any kind of life? HA FUCK NO!

7) You graduate! And let's say you are really ambitious and you got a MS in Engineering...you just invested well over $100k in your education...how much do you think you will get paid?
In the DOD in NY/NJ? $60k a year. And you will most likely only make 2% more per year if congress likes you. And as such why should any company pay you anymore? And if they do it will be just a tad bit more than what the base line is which is set by the largest employer of engineers and scientists.

So to recap, you basically join the toughest frat house on campus. Survive 4 years of brutal hazing and harsh living standards only to get out and find out that your frat matches up with the Omega Moos and that well the benefits are shit...


So why should any guy study science or math or engineering?


Any woman who doesn't wish to shave her legs or buy new clothes or ever watch what she eats...lots of reasons to study the sciences.

A word of advice: get the f*** out of Civil Service while you're still young. Civil Service is for losers and f***-ups who can't hack it in the real world.

That's from someone who had 16 years invested, quit the whole f***ing program in 1997, and never looked back.

mh
.

edit to add more "f-bombs"

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[shropshire 0]

Don't like where you work or how much you are paid?

Then get your C.V up to date and compete for a REAL job.

People moaning about there jobs year after year after year is nothing more than an excuse to be lazy.

It's your life .... lead it.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

Not really a qualitative kind of guy eh?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kallend 1,621]

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Here is what you get if you decide to go into the file of science or engineering.
1) 100 dudes - 5 chicks

Not at my school.

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2) LESS THAN 10% of your professors will speak English. As a first second or a third language.

Not at my school

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3) Your classes will be taught by TA's who only speak the professors language and not yours.

Not at my school

Quote

4) You will pay very good money for books you will never read and lab fees for which you will never understand. Basically you will be paying well over $30k a year to have the Dell Help Desk out of India attempting to teach you thermo dynamics.

It seems the problem is you and not the discipline.

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5) The classes are designed not to educate you or to inform you rather to haze the living shit out of you. Semester #1 50% of the class is failed. Semester #2 another 50% this will go on until the day of graduation.

It seems the problem is you and not the discipline.

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6) You work your ass off studying trying not to fail...remember those 5 chicks....yeah you think you have a sex life? A love life? Hell any kind of life? HA FUCK NO!

Don't blame your personality problems on others.

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7) You graduate! And let's say you are really ambitious and you got a MS in Engineering...you just invested well over $100k in your education...how much do you think you will get paid?
In the DOD in NY/NJ? $60k a year. And you will most likely only make 2% more per year if congress likes you. And as such why should any company pay you anymore? And if they do it will be just a tad bit more than what the base line is which is set by the largest employer of engineers and scientists.

Right now 9 of the top 10 undergraduate majors for starting salaries are all in engineering or computer science (Source: NACE Spring 2011 Salary Survey). You'll pay the same for a degree in history and make $10/hr flipping burgers.

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Any woman who doesn't wish to shave her legs or buy new clothes or ever watch what she eats...lots of reasons to study the sciences.

Your attitude to women in particular and life in general (as we see daily in Bonfire) reflects more negatively on you than it does on women or life.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TriGirl 268]

Quote

www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=571523&p=1

Engineering and science students have to to take courses in humanities and social sciences. It always bugged me that the "soft" majors required almost nothing in the way of math, science and engineering.

So, getting back to the OP......
Yes, that did bug me, especially in HS. I was taking all the math & science classes (not required by the last 2 years), plus my required humanities, so my day was full. By best friend was only on half days our senior year because she had fulfilled all the other actual requirements.

In college, everyone had to take at least one class in 8 required subjects (all at the 100-level, although there was a list of the bare minimum classes). Essentially, everyone had to get out of their own department the same as everyone else. It was probably easier for me to read Shakespeare than for the literature majors having to take Biology for the first time since their early years of HS.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[feuergnom 22]

if anyone shouldn't know the meaning of the word misogynistic - just read five of shah's postsand you won't need a dictionary

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666