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RonD1120

President Bush: Warrior 100K Ride

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It was easy to say, and imo quite accurate, that the risk of WMDs was too great to leave to chance.



Should we invade all countries that may possibly have WMDs. I believe, we (the U.S.) has the largest stockpile of WMDs and an ongoing NC warfare programs (I find it hard to believe that the biological warfare program has been completely shut down.) Should we invade ourselves?
http://usiraq.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000678



why do you follow up an intelligent question with such a stupid one?

Sticking to the first one - we can no longer afford to do this (invade all suspect nations) and will soon have to start withdrawing our forces to a more protectionist role around North America. But with Iraq, if our objective was to remove any possible WMDs along with Hussein, we were done by early 2004. We could have saved well over a trillion dollars, and quite a few lives on both sides.

Most nations don't have a history of use, or make threats to use such weapons. Hussein did, along with financing suicide bombers in Israel, a close US ally.

Getting back on track, I think it's inappropriate to ignore the sacrifice by these troops, and this event supporting them, because one doesn't believe the war should have happened. It's as fair as spitting on Vietnam Vets as baby killers when so many of them were drafted to go.

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When a loser aggressor loses its sovereignty like that, how long does it take for it to regain its sovereignty?

E.g. Germany and Japan come to mind.

Wendy P.



Depends on how long it takes that country to join the civilized world. We gave Iraq that opportunity on a silver platter ...they punted. Too bad for those in Iraq who saw the coalition as friends and liberators but whose hopes for change were smashed by the barbarians in their society.

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why do you follow up an intelligent question with such a stupid one?



The last question was rhetorical.

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We could have saved well over a trillion dollars, and quite a few lives on both sides.



We could had done far better had we allowed the inspectors to complete the job they were given.

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Most nations don't have a history of use, or make threats to use such weapons. Hussein did, along with financing suicide bombers in Israel, a close US ally.



Israel has used phosphorous bombs.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/16/phosphorus-bombs-video-israel-gaza

The only right thing to do is for all countries to abandon weapons programs. Sadly, that will never happen.

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Getting back on track, I think it's inappropriate to ignore the sacrifice by these troops, and this event supporting them, because one doesn't believe the war should have happened. It's as fair as spitting on Vietnam Vets as baby killers when so many of them were drafted to go.



I've yet to see anyone ignoring the sacrifices of the troops.
As for people spitting on Vietnam vets, well as far as I know, it's mostly myth. My father is a Vietnam vet. Him and his buddies never got spit on. Many of my friends are also vets and were never spit on.
I'm not saying that no one was spit on. It may have happened. Most accounts come from people who know a guy who knows someone who has a brother who knows a guy who has a friend who saw someone spitting on someone.
http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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"they have prooven themselves to be dangerous and violent people easilly led into criminal activity."


OK, let me get this straight. As an active duty military member, I have proven myself to be a dangerous and violent person that is easily led into criminal activity? If that is your truthful opinion then I'd like to take this opportunity to say "You're Welcome"

I feel priviliged to defend your right to make that judgement of me and my brothers and sisters in uniform. Your right to free speech entitles you to make that judgement and voice your opinion. The Constitution is a wonderful document filled with beautiful ideas, but in and of itself it is powerless to enfore those ideas. Those that volunteer to put on the uniform give force to that document and power into your rights. So please, enjoy your rights.
Life is short, eat more bacon, have more sex and jump anytime you can!!

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I think that the people who liked the idea of war heard what they wanted to, and the people who didn't heard what they wanted to.

I also think that the people briefing the President and Congress were cherry-picking the data to prove a point, rather than looking for what the picture actually showed. So I, a part of the American people, did not in fact join in that consensus of support.

Wendy P.



+1

And I got called a terrorist sympathizer for voicing those same opinions right here on this forum by a a couple of the wrong wing nutjobs

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We could had done far better had we allowed the inspectors to complete the job they were given.



given the lack of discovery of WMDs in Iraq, it appears their efforts had been successful. But given the frequency in which armed soldiers prevented them from doing their inspections, and the number of times Clinton had to bomb them, it was hardly an expected result.

When a parolee repeated violates the terms, you throw him back in jail. You don't presume that he won't harm others again.
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I've yet to see anyone ignoring the sacrifices of the troops.



uh, we got someone advocating trying them as war criminals. If you missed reading that, you need some form of help. That was the only reason I let this thread detour into the legitimacy of the wars.

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given the lack of discovery of WMDs in Iraq, it appears their efforts had been successful. But given the frequency in which armed soldiers prevented them from doing their inspections, and the number of times Clinton had to bomb them, it was hardly an expected result.

When a parolee repeated violates the terms, you throw him back in jail. You don't presume that he won't harm others again.



I see, you're naive. This will help fill you in on the relations leading up to Desert Storm.
Saddam believed that had a solid relationship with the U.S.. And why wouldn't he? The U.S. has given him support throughout his time as dictator, so far. He was to by Amb. Glaspie that "we have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait." The U.S. had no problem when he attacked Iran. Why would we when he attacked Kuwait.
As you admit, the no-fly zones and inspection were successful. There was absolutely no cause for Bush to invade. It was expected that Saddam would, from time to time, encroach on the no-fly zone. It's what you would expect from any country that has had boundaries and embargoes imposed on them. The U.S. would be no different if these acts were put upon us after years of support. Not to say that Saddam wasn't a bad guy, but I can see where he felt betrayed.

http://military.discovery.com/randr/interactives/iraq/timelines/us_iraq/us_iraq.html

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uh, we got someone advocating trying them as war criminals. If you missed reading that, you need some form of help.



Well, thank you for your diagnosis:S.
Nut-bags calling for soldiers to be tried for war crimes is nothing new. It happens in every war. Poor attempt at painting me as non-supportive of the military.

As for the op? I fully support Bush's Warrior 100k Ride.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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"they have prooven themselves to be dangerous and violent people easilly led into criminal activity."


OK, let me get this straight. As an active duty military member, I have proven myself to be a dangerous and violent person that is easily led into criminal activity? If that is your truthful opinion then I'd like to take this opportunity to say "You're Welcome"

I feel priviliged to defend your right to make that judgement of me and my brothers and sisters in uniform. Your right to free speech entitles you to make that judgement and voice your opinion. The Constitution is a wonderful document filled with beautiful ideas, but in and of itself it is powerless to enfore those ideas. Those that volunteer to put on the uniform give force to that document and power into your rights. So please, enjoy your rights.



Listen young man,
I realize you have been brainwashed to believe that which you posted above.
Let me assure you that the only person in the world who can protect my Rights is me!
Please do not attempt to put on to me the responsibility of your transgressions!
Further please let me point out to you that the Rights ennumerated in the Constitution aren't reserved to just the American people but are inherent by birth to all the people of the world.

If you have in anyway been a party to the invasion or occupation of any sovereign nation, you are a war criminal.

Ya know, you could just put down your weapon and come home. You could leave today and come home and take care of your family.

If all soldiers just put down their weapons and went home to take care of their families we would have no wars and the entire world could celebrate their Rights.
It all starts with one ,shward,
The invasion and the exodus.

Peace,
Jim B.

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"they have prooven themselves to be dangerous and violent people easilly led into criminal activity."


OK, let me get this straight. As an active duty military member, I have proven myself to be a dangerous and violent person that is easily led into criminal activity? If that is your truthful opinion then I'd like to take this opportunity to say "You're Welcome"

I feel priviliged to defend your right to make that judgement of me and my brothers and sisters in uniform. Your right to free speech entitles you to make that judgement and voice your opinion. The Constitution is a wonderful document filled with beautiful ideas, but in and of itself it is powerless to enfore those ideas. Those that volunteer to put on the uniform give force to that document and power into your rights. So please, enjoy your rights.



Listen young man,
I realize you have been brainwashed to believe that which you posted above.
Let me assure you that the only person in the world who can protect my Rights is me!
Please do not attempt to put on to me the responsibility of your transgressions!
Further please let me point out to you that the Rights ennumerated in the Constitution aren't reserved to just the American people but are inherent by birth to all the people of the world.

If you have in anyway been a party to the invasion or occupation of any sovereign nation, you are a war criminal.

Ya know, you could just put down your weapon and come home. You could leave today and come home and take care of your family.

If all soldiers just put down their weapons and went home to take care of their families we would have no wars and the entire world could celebrate their Rights.
It all starts with one ,shward,
The invasion and the exodus.

Peace,
Jim B.



Kelpdiver, as I said...
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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you must be such a proud merkan!

dear lord, baby jesus would be so proud



Uhmerikan, thank you. And, yes, yes I am.

Furthermore, the Lord Jesus Christ is theocratic.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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Listen young man,
I realize you have been brainwashed to believe that which you posted above.
Let me assure you that the only person in the world who can protect my Rights is me!
Please do not attempt to put on to me the responsibility of your transgressions!
Further please let me point out to you that the Rights ennumerated in the Constitution aren't reserved to just the American people but are inherent by birth to all the people of the world.

If you have in anyway been a party to the invasion or occupation of any sovereign nation, you are a war criminal.

Ya know, you could just put down your weapon and come home. You could leave today and come home and take care of your family.

If all soldiers just put down their weapons and went home to take care of their families we would have no wars and the entire world could celebrate their Rights.
It all starts with one ,shward,
The invasion and the exodus.

Peace,
Jim B.



Wow! You take ignorant naivete to an art form. :P
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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"they have prooven themselves to be dangerous and violent people easilly led into criminal activity."


OK, let me get this straight. As an active duty military member, I have proven myself to be a dangerous and violent person that is easily led into criminal activity? If that is your truthful opinion then I'd like to take this opportunity to say "You're Welcome"

I feel priviliged to defend your right to make that judgement of me and my brothers and sisters in uniform. Your right to free speech entitles you to make that judgement and voice your opinion. The Constitution is a wonderful document filled with beautiful ideas, but in and of itself it is powerless to enfore those ideas. Those that volunteer to put on the uniform give force to that document and power into your rights. So please, enjoy your rights.



Listen young man,
I realize you have been brainwashed to believe that which you posted above.
Let me assure you that the only person in the world who can protect my Rights is me!
Please do not attempt to put on to me the responsibility of your transgressions!
Further please let me point out to you that the Rights ennumerated in the Constitution aren't reserved to just the American people but are inherent by birth to all the people of the world.

If you have in anyway been a party to the invasion or occupation of any sovereign nation, you are a war criminal.

Ya know, you could just put down your weapon and come home. You could leave today and come home and take care of your family.

If all soldiers just put down their weapons and went home to take care of their families we would have no wars and the entire world could celebrate their Rights.
It all starts with one ,shward,
The invasion and the exodus.

Peace,
Jim B.



Kelpdiver, as I said...



Kind of a backhanded PM but that's not bothering me.
I would like for you to attempt to justify invasion of a sovereign nation with its' expected death of innocent civilians and innocent military protecting their own borders.
I doubt you can do it for I know there can never be "justification" as that act is simply criminal.

If the act is criminal all those who take part in the act (conspiracy) are by definition criminals as well!
They areb't *heroes* to be reveered or victims of circumstance! No they are criminals who decided to take money for their participation in the one of the greatest crimes anyone could ever commit.

They accepted paynent to take the life of innocent people!!!
And ignorance is no excuse!

Peace,
Jim B

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Listen young man,
I realize you have been brainwashed to believe that which you posted above.
Let me assure you that the only person in the world who can protect my Rights is me!
Please do not attempt to put on to me the responsibility of your transgressions!
Further please let me point out to you that the Rights ennumerated in the Constitution aren't reserved to just the American people but are inherent by birth to all the people of the world.

If you have in anyway been a party to the invasion or occupation of any sovereign nation, you are a war criminal.

Ya know, you could just put down your weapon and come home. You could leave today and come home and take care of your family.

If all soldiers just put down their weapons and went home to take care of their families we would have no wars and the entire world could celebrate their Rights.
It all starts with one ,shward,
The invasion and the exodus.

Peace,
Jim B.



Wow! You take ignorant naivete to an art form. :P


Ron,
I'm just trying to preach what the Master ,Jesus the Christ taught.
That killing is always wrong.
He taught that we should love our fellow humans.
His teachings can never be reconciled with acts of killing,destruction ,torture and war.

Was He also ignorant?

What say you?

Peace,
Jim B

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Ron,
I'm just trying to preach what the Master ,Jesus the Christ taught.
That killing is always wrong.
He taught that we should love our fellow humans.
His teachings can never be reconciled with acts of killing,destruction ,torture and war.

Was He also ignorant?

What say you?

Peace,
Jim B



I say you have no understanding of the UCMJ and the consequences of laying down your rifle in a combat zone.

No crime in being a conscientious objector but, that decision must be made prior to volunteering to serve in the military.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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I would like for you to attempt to justify invasion of a sovereign nation



I have never supported the invasion of Iraq. I do support the men and women of all the branches of the military. I spent time over there on an LPH during the Iranian Crisis and the Iraq-Iran war. I understand their sacrifices as does many other veterans who oppose war. IMO, and the opinion of others, there was no solid justification for this invasion. I would not nor would I ever call those who serve with honor war criminals.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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Ron,
I'm just trying to preach what the Master ,Jesus the Christ taught.
That killing is always wrong.
He taught that we should love our fellow humans.
His teachings can never be reconciled with acts of killing,destruction ,torture and war.

Was He also ignorant?

What say you?

Peace,
Jim B



I say you have no understanding of the UCMJ and the consequences of laying down your rifle in a combat zone.

No crime in being a conscientious objector but, that decision must be made prior to volunteering to serve in the military.



Why don't you enlighten me as to the consequences , Ron?

All I see is that you no longer kill people.

And why don't you also explain why one can't make the decision to lead a more moral and "Christ" like life at anytime even after enlisting? Are you suggesting that soldiers aren't entitled to Free Will that the Creator bestowed upon them?

Peace,
Jim B

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[reply. I would not nor would I ever call those who serve with honor war criminals.



You don't have to call a rabbit a rabbit.

That doesn't change what he is.

Peace,
Jim B.



That is an insult to any anyone who has ever served for whatever type of government they believed in.
True, some do join armed forces solely to kill, but the mass majority join because they believe, over all, they are doing what is right. And that solely depends on what side of the fence you stand on.
When I joined, I honestly believed that Iran threatened our way of life. I was ready and willing to go to war. That would had not made me a criminal. Nor is my father a war criminal for serving several tours in Vietnam.
I wonder, have you yourself ever served?
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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Saddam believed that had a solid relationship with the U.S.. And why wouldn't he? The U.S. has given him support throughout his time as dictator, so far. He was to by Amb. Glaspie that "we have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait." The U.S. had no problem when he attacked Iran. Why would we when he attacked Kuwait.



He believed that in 1990. He certainly didn't after 1991. What he knew then was that the US did not have the motivation to invade Baghdad. This lead to the silly 100 hours ceasefire. This fear of Vietnam II lasted until 9/11. Hussein badly misunderstood how that changed things for troop engagement. He paid for it, as did his country.

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Well, thank you for your diagnosis:S.
Nut-bags calling for soldiers to be tried for war crimes is nothing new. It happens in every war. Poor attempt at painting me as non-supportive of the military.



I didn't. But you claimed that no one here said otherwise, when it was pretty clear that this was false. So I was painting you as either dishonest or illiterate for the claim.

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[reply. I would not nor would I ever call those who serve with honor war criminals.



You don't have to call a rabbit a rabbit.

That doesn't change what he is.

Peace,
Jim B.



That is an insult to any anyone who has ever served for whatever type of government they believed in.
True, some do join armed forces solely to kill, but the mass majority join because they believe, over all, they are doing what is right. And that solely depends on what side of the fence you stand on.
When I joined, I honestly that Iran threatened our way of life. I was ready and willing to go to war. That would had not made me a criminal. Nor is my father a war criminal for serving several tours in Vietnam.
I wonder, have you yourself ever served?



I'm not meaning to insult anyone. I'm simply calling a rabbit a rabbit.

You honestly believed but you were wrong . So what?

If a member of the Crypts "honestly believes" that the Bloods are out to get him(when they aren't) does that justify a drive by shooting or is the shooting still a criminal act?

Hare, Bunny, you can call it what you want.
It's still a rabbit.

Peace,
Jim B

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But you claimed that no one here said otherwise, when it was pretty clear that this was false.



If you are referring to this, "I've yet to see anyone ignoring the sacrifices of the troops."? I'll add, "...accept for a few."
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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If a member of the Crypts "honestly believes" that the Bloods are out to get him(when they aren't) does that justify a drive by shooting or is the shooting still a criminal act?



For one, street gangs are criminal organizations and do not follow the rules of society. They are dealt with accordingly.
Armed forces follow rules of war (The Geneva Convention.) When members act outside of those rules they then become war criminals. When they are caught, they are then dealt with accordingly.

The vast majority are there because they wholeheartedly believe in the over all cause of freedom. Very few care squat about the politics.
It's a cop out calling all of the troops criminals. But, you can call them what you please. You have that right. You should thank every American and Non-American who has ever given service to this country to protect it's borders so that you can maintain that right.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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If a member of the Crypts "honestly believes" that the Bloods are out to get him(when they aren't) does that justify a drive by shooting or is the shooting still a criminal act?



For one, street gangs are criminal organizations and do not follow the rules of society. They are dealt with accordingly.
Armed forces follow rules of war (The Geneva Convention.) When members act outside of those rules they then become war criminals. When they are caught, they are then dealt with accordingly.
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And if the invasion of Iraq was outside the rules of international society than every invader is a war criminal. They may escape prosecution but they are still war criminals.

Peace,
Jim B

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