The Church Vs. Science

[stevebabin 0]

I was watching Nova tonight and it mentioned Galileo and the church...it reminded me of this essay that was posted here a long time ago. I thought it would be good SC Fodder for those who haven't seen it.

SO......Thoughts, anyone?

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[quade 3]

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SO......Thoughts, anyone?

More or less 5,000 words that don't really bring any new information to the table to anyone that's even vaguely up on history. I don't really like how it only seems to go after "Christians" because it's not really a war between science and "Christianity", but rather all religions with fundamental beliefs in ancient creation myths rather than science.

THE stopping block is essentially, if the fundamental creation myth is so wildly inaccurate, wrong right on page one, then how can the rest of the religious beliefs be taken seriously?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[stevebabin 0]

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More or less 5,000 words that don't really bring any new information to the table to anyone that's even vaguely up on history

Agreed...but there are plenty of people here that fit that very description and this information may be new to them.

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I don't really like how it only seems to go after "Christians" because it's not really a war between science and "Christianity", but rather all religions with fundamental beliefs in ancient creation myths rather than science.

Again I agree with you. The christians hold no monopoly on mythology, but the christian church has enjoyed a position of power in the world that other religions have not. Because of this, they have been able to suppress contradictory evidence more effectively than the other major religions.

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THE stopping block is essentially, if the fundamental creation myth is so wildly inaccurate, wrong right on page one, then how can the rest of the religious beliefs be taken seriously?

Good point, well put.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[Coreece 190]

Well as I suspected I couldn't open your document...

Perhaps you have a reliable link/source?

First I'll say that my guests have passed out...time to get down to business.

Most people will agree that Science and Religion are mutually exclusive.

I'll just say that the Bible is not a science book...I'm sure you'll agree.

But I'll have you know that the Bible is scientifically accurate in it's claims regarding the 1st and 2nd Law of Thermo Dynamics, hydrology, Astronomy, Isostasy, Meterology (wind circulation & air pressure), Physiology (The Circulatory System & Psychosomatic Illness) and geodesy (The Bible is the first to tell us that the earth spins on an axis.)

There is also oceanographic evidence of the exodus.

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Or have you only examined your own biases?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[tkhayes 126]

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But I'll have you know that the Bible is scientifically accurate in it's claims regarding the 1st and 2nd Law of Thermo Dynamics, hydrology, Astronomy, Isostasy, Meterology (wind circulation & air pressure), Physiology (The Circulatory System & Psychosomatic Illness) and geodesy (The Bible is the first to tell us that the earth spins on an axis.)

That's hilarious.

I am sure the Bible is accurate in claims regarding GRAVITY as well. Somewhere it says something about falling or dropping. Does not make it a valid source of information for that subject, nor was it written in any way to support said theory of gravity.

The Bible is a bunch of stories, written by people decades and centuries after the events happened. here-say at best. A nice novel (almost), not to be taken seriously, but sadly, taken seriously by so many.

[kallend 1,623]

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Well as I suspected I couldn't open your document...

Perhaps you have a reliable link/source?

First I'll say that my guests have passed out...time to get down to business.

Most people will agree that Science and Religion are mutually exclusive.

I'll just say that the Bible is not a science book...I'm sure you'll agree.

But I'll have you know that the Bible is scientifically accurate in it's claims regarding the 1st and 2nd Law of Thermo Dynamics, hydrology, Astronomy, Isostasy, Meterology (wind circulation & air pressure), Physiology (The Circulatory System & Psychosomatic Illness) and geodesy (The Bible is the first to tell us that the earth spins on an axis.)

There is also oceanographic evidence of the exodus.

?

Nonsense - that's just lax interpretive propaganda pushed by apologists.

Most of the OT biblical stories are based on earlier work by the Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians etc. The Israelites were still neolithic when the Greeks and Egyptians were inventing logic, geometry and observational methods.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Calvin19 0]

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Well as I suspected I couldn't open your document...

Perhaps you have a reliable link/source?

First I'll say that my guests have passed out...time to get down to business.

Most people will agree that Science and Religion are mutually exclusive.

I'll just say that the Bible is not a science book...I'm sure you'll agree.

But I'll have you know that the Bible is scientifically accurate in it's claims regarding the 1st and 2nd Law of Thermo Dynamics, hydrology, Astronomy, Isostasy, Meterology (wind circulation & air pressure), Physiology (The Circulatory System & Psychosomatic Illness) and geodesy (The Bible is the first to tell us that the earth spins on an axis.)

There is also oceanographic evidence of the exodus.

?

Nonsense - that's just lax interpretive propaganda pushed by apologists.

My thoughts exactly.

[Calvin19 0]

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More or less 5,000 words that don't really bring any new information to the table to anyone that's even vaguely up on history.

I like how this makes it seem that some new evidence will someday be brought to the table.

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I don't really like how it only seems to go after "Christians" because it's not really a war between science and "Christianity", but rather all religions with fundamental beliefs in ancient creation myths rather than science.

I am ok with using christianity as the punching bag. It makes up the largest portion of theists on earth and most other monotheistic beliefs are just a few degrees off.


Bottom line:
RELIGION (mostly christianity) is the main and arguably only reason the human race is THOUSANDS of years behind in technology and knowledge.

Anyone organizing beliefs into groups, even good ones, is nothing more than an enabler for the bad ones. Apologists being the worst.

[lawrocket 3]

I think that so much of this "Religion" versus "Science" stuff is stereotype that, while accurate with many also fails to take into account where religion or the religious brought about scientific progress.

Check out Thomas Aquinas and his efforts to reconcile religion with science.

Gregor Mendel - the priest who was the father of genetics.

Georges LeMaitre - the priest who first applied Einstein's ideas to state the universe is expanding and therefore must have been, at one point, a singularity - the idea that Einstein disagreed with and was ridiculed with the term "The Big Bang."

Isaac Newton - himself a religious man.

Einstein - spiritual, as well.

Those who would group in religion as being anti-science are being dogmatic. Not that there are not examples of their being correct but there are plenty of examples of the opposite - of deeply religious people who make great strives. Indeed, it seems often that these people advance science while attempting to advance religion.

I am not a religious man. But I also see plenty of anti-religion haters who are no less dogmatic than the dogmatists that they attack. Perhaps if they were less dogmatic then they wouldn't let other people's personal beliefs bother them - sound familiar?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Calvin19 0]

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where religion or the religious brought about scientific progress.

I think you are trying to point out that a few people or groups were able to make scientific advances despite their religious beliefs.

[shropshire 0]

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where religion or the religious brought about scientific progress.

I think you are trying to point out that a few people or groups were able to make scientific advances despite their religious beliefs.

and, in some cases, despite being held back by religious leaders ...

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SpeedRacer 1]

It is only Fundamentalists who try to swap Religion for Science. They do two different jobs.

And BTW, the Catholic church NEVER put any ban on Darwin's Origin of Species, and has no problem with scientific explanations of the universe.

The Church also invented the public school & promoted universal literacy during th middle ages. Also invented hospitals. And it was monasteries who preserved and copied classical literature when so much of the rest of the world had descended into barbarism and war.

Speed Racer
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[jakee 1,254]

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But I'll have you know that the Bible is scientifically accurate in it's claims regarding the 1st and 2nd Law of Thermo Dynamics, hydrology, Astronomy, Isostasy, Meterology (wind circulation & air pressure), Physiology (The Circulatory System & Psychosomatic Illness) and geodesy (The Bible is the first to tell us that the earth spins on an axis.)

I'll have you know thats all a bunch of total bullshit. In the same way that horoscopes make predictions so broad that anyone can see their own life or personality reflected in them the 'claims' you refer to are so vague that they can be seized upon by anyone with an agenda to make them say what they want them to say.

And on the flip side you have a whole other bunch of passages that explicitly contradict things as basic as the world being round that you would probably dismiss as being poetic licence.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[stevebabin 0]

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Well as I suspected I couldn't open your document...

Is anyone else having problems opening this Word Document?
Coreece, I don't mean keep you in the dark on this. Your Pastor tried to pay me to keep it from you, but I told him to get lost. ("lost"...get it?!)

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[Andy9o8 0]

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And BTW, the Catholic church NEVER put any ban on Darwin's Origin of Species, and has no problem with scientific explanations of the universe.

One rather well-known example of Church oppression of science, pre-dating Darwin, was the Church's hostility toward Copernicus and persecution of Galileo.

As for Darwin, I recently was riding in a car whose elderly Catholic driver was listening to a talk show hosted by a Catholic priest who was spinning evolution as a "cynical philosophy based on death" (because "survival of the fittest" is predicated on the less-adapted surviving less - i.e., dying sooner - than the better-adapted). To the anecdotal observation of my own 50+ years, the Church certainly does seem to have a problem with scientific explanations of the universe. As for "bans" of Darwin, it's probably fair to compare the treatment of evolution in Catholic schools (both historically and currently), and then compare the same to public schools - then we can diddle over the semantics of whether it's a "ban", or some lesser degree of BS treatment.

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The Church also invented the public school & promoted universal literacy during the middle ages.

True, but not exclusively so. Literacy was also fairly widespread during the middle ages in eastern Asia, Japan and the Islamic world.

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Also invented hospitals.

Hospitals existed in the Roman Empire and in India hundred of years before the birth of Christ. (No Christ = no Catholics. )

[Airman1270 0]

The very premise of this thread is mistaken. Science and the Church are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, there have been historic disagreements. These things happen. While much of basic Church teaching cannot be scientifically proven, much of it HAS been validated through the scientific process. Science & faith are two separate entities, with much common ground.

Cheers,
Jon S.

[stevebabin 0]

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The very premise of this thread is mistaken. Science and the Church are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, there have been historic disagreements. These things happen. While much of basic Church teaching cannot be scientifically proven, much of it HAS been validated through the scientific process. Science & faith are two separate entities, with much common ground.

Cheers,
Jon S.

Yes...like the "Intelligent Design" movement.
So what basic church teaching has been validated through the scientific process?

(did you read the attachment?)

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[futuredivot 0]

Too many people (primarily IN church) let religion get in the way of their beliefs.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[quade 3]

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The very premise of this thread is mistaken. Science and the Church are not mutually exclusive.

I disagree. Religion requires belief in "God" while science does not.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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I was watching Nova tonight and it mentioned Galileo and the church...it reminded me of this essay that was posted here a long time ago. I thought it would be good SC Fodder for those who haven't seen it.

SO......Thoughts, anyone?

Man, you don't just stir up shit...you put an outboard motor in the septic tank!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[stevebabin 0]

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I was watching Nova tonight and it mentioned Galileo and the church...it reminded me of this essay that was posted here a long time ago. I thought it would be good SC Fodder for those who haven't seen it.

SO......Thoughts, anyone?

Man, you don't just stir up shit...you put an outboard motor in the septic tank!

No point in being bored!

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[maadmax 0]

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I was watching Nova tonight and it mentioned Galileo and the church...it reminded me of this essay that was posted here a long time ago. I thought it would be good SC Fodder for those who haven't seen it.

SO......Thoughts, anyone?

Since science is blind to what it can't measure, those who claim to be "scientists" should refrain from commenting on things they know nothing about, namely God. Likewise those who use the Bible as a science text book are equally wrong. The Bible is a guide to spiritual reality, not physical reality. I don't see any conflict between the two.


...

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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I was watching Nova tonight and it mentioned Galileo and the church...it reminded me of this essay that was posted here a long time ago. I thought it would be good SC Fodder for those who haven't seen it.

SO......Thoughts, anyone?

Since science is blind to what it can't measure, those who claim to be "scientists" should refrain from commenting on things they know nothing about, namely God. Likewise those who use the Bible as a science text book are equally wrong. The Bible is a guide to spiritual reality, not physical reality. I don't see any conflict between the two.


...

If we are to refrain from commenting on things we know nothing about, then nobody can comment on God. People only think they know about God but, since He does not see fit to allow His existence to be proven, we have only blind faith to go on. Blind faith does not allow us to know anything. Those who claim to know are actually only going by what they were told by someone else who got their information the same way.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 3]

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The Bible is a guide to spiritual reality . . .

You can say that's what you believe, but to state it as fact is ridiculous.

To me it appears to be little more than a device used by kings, priests and tribal elders to maintain control over people. Not "God's Law" but man's law passed off as coming from a higher source exactly the same way hundreds of religions have been used their own mythologies throughout history.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jakee 1,254]

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The Bible is a guide to spiritual reality, not physical reality.

That could be a decent point, if the Bible didn't talk about physical reality. But it does, and gets it badly wrong.

Why on earth should anyone trust what it says about the unknowable when it's so wide of the mark on the knowable?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?