Hiring Based on Race is Wrong...

[Kennedy 0]

Unless you are the DOJ.

Civil Service Board Announces Police Recruit Scores

Quote

DAYTON -- The Dayton Police Department is lowering its testing standards for recruits.

It's a move required by the U.S. Department of Justice after it says not enough African-Americans passed the exam.

Dayton is in desperate need of officers to replace dozens of retirees. The hiring process was postponed for months because the D.O.J. rejected the original scores provided by the Dayton Civil Service Board, which administers the test.
snip...

So much for living in a country where the best person for the job gets the job...

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[shermanator 3]

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So much for living in a country where the best person for the job gets the job...

That's been done with for quite some time

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[Kennedy 0]

I suppose you're right. This isn't even an instance of a lesser applicant getting the job over a more qualified applicant. This is a case of forced hiring of people who failed the basic "I'm not an idiot" test.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[captain1976 0]

Its just that African Americans historically test lower in IQ and other tests. Racist statement? Maybe, but I can deal with the truth and if its offensive to say it, I really don’t care.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[Belgian_Draft 0]

In the good ol' USA you cannot speak the truth if it insults a group of people. Jimmy the Greek can attest to that. For anyone unfamiliar with his case, Jimmy the Greek was a bookie and a sports announcer. He lost his job when he said blacks are better athletes because their ancestors here in the US were selectively bred, as slaves, to produce the strongest offspring.
He was right and he lost his job because he spoke the truth.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jgoose71 0]

Quote

Its just that African Americans historically test lower in IQ and other tests. Racist statement? Maybe, but I can deal with the truth and if its offensive to say it, I really don’t care.

Well, it's basically what the DOJ is saying. You are just being more blunt about it.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Nataly 38]

The problem with tests (including IQ tests) is that their validity/usefulness relies heavily on the people who designed them in the first place. This often means that certain sub-groups score poorly irrespective of whether they are clever or not because while they may lack the qualities being looked for, they may have other qualities that are simply not being measured/recognised. For example, you may test for numeracy skills when recruiting for an accountant, but this will not help you find someone with common-sense... Personally, I would rather hire an accountant who has a lot of common sense than a human-calculator.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

The problem with tests (including IQ tests) is that their validity/usefulness relies heavily on the people who designed them in the first place. This often means that certain sub-groups score poorly irrespective of whether they are clever or not because while they may lack the qualities being looked for, they may have other qualities that are simply not being measured/recognised. For example, you may test for numeracy skills when recruiting for an accountant, but this will not help you find someone with common-sense... Personally, I would rather hire an accountant who has a lot of common sense than a human-calculator.

Translation: These tests were designed by whites and that's why blacks do so poorly on them.

Truth: You have no idea who designed these tests. For all you know it was a Black Psycholgist in conjunction with Black Social workers and Black Chiefs of Police. Your white liberal guilt is showing.

[wmw999 2,120]

Let's just go ahead and say it. Blacks aren't as smart as whites, and it should be OK to say so.

Since they aren't as smart, we should take that into account when making hiring and firing decisions, just as we take other things into account, like college degrees.

No, no one actually said those particular words. But it's sure easy to infer. And it's easy to say "well, that's their problem, isn't it." It's also disingenuous.

Give me a fucking break.

If the test is broken, figure out why and fix it. If the test isn't broken, then maybe, just maybe, the local educational system is broken.

Maybe those 100 years of unequal schooling haven't quite been made up for yet. But that doesn't mean you lower the requirements for hte job -- it means you either figure out what the job really requires, or you fix the system so that people have equal access.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Nataly 38]

Quote

Quote

The problem with tests (including IQ tests) is that their validity/usefulness relies heavily on the people who designed them in the first place. This often means that certain sub-groups score poorly irrespective of whether they are clever or not because while they may lack the qualities being looked for, they may have other qualities that are simply not being measured/recognised. For example, you may test for numeracy skills when recruiting for an accountant, but this will not help you find someone with common-sense... Personally, I would rather hire an accountant who has a lot of common sense than a human-calculator.

Translation: These tests were designed by whites and that's why blacks do so poorly on them.

Truth: You have no idea who designed these tests. For all you know it was a Black Psycholgist in conjumction with Black Social workers and Black Chiefs of Police. You white liberal guilt is showing.

No. I was saying that it's possible that the people failing the tests are not the same people who created the tests. I was also saying that they may have other useful qualities that are not being measured as a result.

ETA - Thanks Wendy - totally agree with your post.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[turtlespeed 212]

Quote

Let's just go ahead and say it. Blacks aren't as smart as whites, and it should be OK to say so.

Since they aren't as smart, we should take that into account when making hiring and firing decisions, just as we take other things into account, like college degrees.

No, no one actually said those particular words. But it's sure easy to infer. And it's easy to say "well, that's their problem, isn't it." It's also disingenuous.

Give me a fucking break.

If the test is broken, figure out why and fix it. If the test isn't broken, then maybe, just maybe, the local educational system is broken.

Maybe those 100 years of unequal schooling haven't quite been made up for yet. But that doesn't mean you lower the requirements for hte job -- it means you either figure out what the job really requires, or you fix the system so that people have equal access.

Wendy P.

Since when did you become a conservative?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The problem with tests (including IQ tests) is that their validity/usefulness relies heavily on the people who designed them in the first place. This often means that certain sub-groups score poorly irrespective of whether they are clever or not because while they may lack the qualities being looked for, they may have other qualities that are simply not being measured/recognised. For example, you may test for numeracy skills when recruiting for an accountant, but this will not help you find someone with common-sense... Personally, I would rather hire an accountant who has a lot of common sense than a human-calculator.

Translation: These tests were designed by whites and that's why blacks do so poorly on them.

Truth: You have no idea who designed these tests. For all you know it was a Black Psycholgist in conjumction with Black Social workers and Black Chiefs of Police. You white liberal guilt is showing.

No. I was saying that it's possible that the people failing the tests are not the same people who created the tests. I was also saying that they may have other useful qualities that are not being measured as a result.

ETA - Thanks Wendy - totally agree with your post (the non-sarcastic stuff!)

Huh??? Why would anyone think the people failing the tests are the ones who designed them? The tests were ;ikely designed by psychologists familiar with what character traits make a good police officer. This isn't a test of math skills or history.

From the news article:

Quote

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

The D.O.J. and Civil Service Board declined Dayton’s News Source’s repeat requests for interviews. The lower standards mean 258 more people passed the test. The city won't say how many were minorities.

“If you lower the score for any group of people, you're not getting the best qualified people for the job,” Foward said.

So even the NAACP recognises the test as being valid to determine the qualifications to be a Police Officer. I for one would not want one of these officers who failed the test backing me up in a dangerous situation.

[Nataly 38]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

The problem with tests (including IQ tests) is that their validity/usefulness relies heavily on the people who designed them in the first place. This often means that certain sub-groups score poorly irrespective of whether they are clever or not because while they may lack the qualities being looked for, they may have other qualities that are simply not being measured/recognised. For example, you may test for numeracy skills when recruiting for an accountant, but this will not help you find someone with common-sense... Personally, I would rather hire an accountant who has a lot of common sense than a human-calculator.

Translation: These tests were designed by whites and that's why blacks do so poorly on them.

Truth: You have no idea who designed these tests. For all you know it was a Black Psycholgist in conjumction with Black Social workers and Black Chiefs of Police. You white liberal guilt is showing.

No. I was saying that it's possible that the people failing the tests are not the same people who created the tests. I was also saying that they may have other useful qualities that are not being measured as a result.

ETA - Thanks Wendy - totally agree with your post (the non-sarcastic stuff!)

Huh??? Why would anyone think the people failing the tests are the ones who designed them? The tests were ;ikely designed by psychologists familiar with what character traits make a good police officer. This isn't a test of math skills or history.

From the news article:

Quote

“The NAACP does not support individuals failing a test and then having the opportunity to be gainfully employed,” agreed Dayton NAACP President Derrick Foward.

The D.O.J. and Civil Service Board declined Dayton’s News Source’s repeat requests for interviews. The lower standards mean 258 more people passed the test. The city won't say how many were minorities.

“If you lower the score for any group of people, you're not getting the best qualified people for the job,” Foward said.

So even the NAACP recognises the test as being valid to determine the qualifications to be a Police Officer. I for one would not want one of these officers who failed the test backing me up in a dangerous situation.

Holy crap. Perhaps I should have written "it's possible that the *kind* of people failing the tests are not the same *kind* of people who created the tests".

You're not objecting to what I'm saying, but my grammar. And you're deliberately ignoring my point: perhaps the test isn't a good one. Even if the NAACP thinks it is. Which by the way is not what they are saying, but granted it is implied.

And finally, I'm not saying this is definitely the case; I'm merely suggesting it as a possibility.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Gravitymaster 0]

I'll take the NAACP at their word that these tests are a fair measure of ones ability to be a productive police officer. I'm very sure if there was any question regarding their validity they would be strenously objecting to them and Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would be on the scene, megaphone in hand.

[jgoose71 0]

OK, now here is the truth.

It's not that blacks are dumber or smarter that white people. It's Priorities.

Black kids growing up prioritize MTV, gangster rap, getting their bling on, slappin hoes, big ballin', grabbin their junk, and making sure their street cred is in order.

White kids are more likely to pay attention in school. Usually because they are more likely to have a father figure in their life to kick their ass if they slack off.

Some how it always makes it's way back to family values.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Gravitymaster 0]

Perhaps this will help you understand why the DOJ is supporting lowering the test scores so unqualified people can become Police Oficers.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/15/special-protection-for-black-panthers/

You can also Google "Pigford" for even greater insight.

[Nataly 38]

It would be interesting to follow the careers of the people whose results got bumped up...

Tests are predictors of performance. Even good predictors are not perfect. Cut-off points are slightly arbitrary... What is the real difference between 1% point, for instance?? Let's say you need 50% to pass... Take someone who scored 49% on the test and one who got 50% - is the person who scored 49% totally incapable of doing the job compared to the person who scored 50%?? Give both of them the same job - are you 100% sure that the candidate who scored marginally higher will be the better worker?

Test scores are adjusted all the time... If there had been 300000 candidates, all with exceptionally high scores, they wouldn't have been able to hire all of them, so they would have *raised* their hiring standards. Of course, intuitively, it's difficult to object to this, but it seems unlikely that the hiring authorities would have selected grossly inappropriate candidates just to fill in a gap. It seems more likely that some people with only marginally low scores were given a chance.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[billvon 2,395]

>It's not that blacks are dumber or smarter that white people. It's Priorities.

So far we have "blacks have a lower IQ overall" "blacks are shiftless" and "blacks were bred for strength." Which people can think; people can think anything they like.

Unfortunately, often that thinking is manifested in things like hiring decisions and college acceptances. "Well, it's a proven fact that blacks have lower IQ's and are lazier than whites. So if I have two equally qualified applicants - one black, one white - I'm going to be intelligent about it and go with the guy who, statistically speaking, will tend to be smarter and harder working."

And THAT is why affirmative action is sometimes needed.

[captain1976 0]

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Its just that African Americans historically test lower in IQ and other tests. Racist statement? Maybe, but I can deal with the truth and if its offensive to say it, I really don’t care.

Well, it's basically what the DOJ is saying. You are just being more blunt about it.

Right, but being blunt and not caring what sounds racist, I do agree with others here that considerations should be made with respect to lowering those standards.

Personal character and integrity are more important than IQ scores.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Quote

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Its just that African Americans historically test lower in IQ and other tests. Racist statement? Maybe, but I can deal with the truth and if its offensive to say it, I really don’t care.

Well, it's basically what the DOJ is saying. You are just being more blunt about it.

Right, but being blunt and not caring what sounds racist, I do agree with others here that considerations should be made with respect to lowering those standards.

Personal character and integrity are more important than IQ scores.

Would you also support lowering the qualifications to be an airline pilot? Should the government force the airlines to hire pilots who failed the tests?

Should skydiving instructors pass students who fail to pass AFF course objectives?

Should teachers who can't pass tests be given jobs teaching your children?

Should College Professors pass medical students based on failing test scores just to reach racial parity?

How much more dumbing down in our society do you find acceptable?

[cloudseeker2001 0]

I had the unfortunate experience of attending a mostly black school in a ghetto for 8,9, 10 grades and most of you here simply would not believe some of my stories concerning teachers, admistrators and students…..

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Nataly 38]

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Quote

Quote

Quote

Its just that African Americans historically test lower in IQ and other tests. Racist statement? Maybe, but I can deal with the truth and if its offensive to say it, I really don’t care.

Well, it's basically what the DOJ is saying. You are just being more blunt about it.

Right, but being blunt and not caring what sounds racist, I do agree with others here that considerations should be made with respect to lowering those standards.

Personal character and integrity are more important than IQ scores.

Would you also support lowering the qualifications to be an airline pilot? Should the government force the airlines to hire pilots who failed the tests?

Should skydiving instructors pass students who fail to pass AFF course objectives?

Should teachers who can't pass tests be given jobs teaching your children?

Should College Professors pass medical students based on failing test scores just to reach racial parity?

How much more dumbing down in our society do you find acceptable?

Do you really think none of those trades adjust pass-rates??

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

>It's not that blacks are dumber or smarter that white people. It's Priorities.

So far we have "blacks have a lower IQ overall" "blacks are shiftless" and "blacks were bred for strength." Which people can think; people can think anything they like.

Unfortunately, often that thinking is manifested in things like hiring decisions and college acceptances. "Well, it's a proven fact that blacks have lower IQ's and are lazier than whites. So if I have two equally qualified applicants - one black, one white - I'm going to be intelligent about it and go with the guy who, statistically speaking, will tend to be smarter and harder working."

And THAT is why affirmative action is sometimes needed.

Except affirmative action, by definition, is racist.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Gravitymaster 0]

They are only required to get a 66% on part of the exam. How much lower do you want them to dumb it down? Heck, why bother to have an exam at all. Let's just base it on whether they are really nice people. If we like them they get hired to protect you, if we don't like them, they clean the sewers.

[turtlespeed 212]

Quote

>It's not that blacks are dumber or smarter that white people. It's Priorities.

So far we have "blacks have a lower IQ overall" "blacks are shiftless" and "blacks were bred for strength." Which people can think; people can think anything they like.

Unfortunately, often that thinking is manifested in things like hiring decisions and college acceptances. "Well, it's a proven fact that blacks have lower IQ's and are lazier than whites. So if I have two equally qualified applicants - one black, one white - I'm going to be intelligent about it and go with the guy who, statistically speaking, will tend to be smarter and harder working."

And THAT is why affirmative action is sometimes needed.

It sounds like you are saying that affirmative action is needed to force people and corporations and municipalities to go with the lesser qualified, less intelligent, less dependable option?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun