About time the Wisconsin Senate went back to work

[DanG 1]

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If given the opportunity to incur the cuts as included in the Bill; I'd bet the thousands of GM workers of the Local UAW, would have taken them rather than having GM's 3rd longest running plant in Janesville, WI...shut their doors permanently 3 years ago !

In fairness to the protestors, who I only partly support, they agreed to all the cuts a long time ago. The only thing they were protesting was the loss of collective bargaining.

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At one time, Unions probably were an aid to the working man, but with the economic evolution as it is...they've found it their agenda to line their 'blue collars' !

I agree.

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During their summer months; while collecting their teacher's pay & unemployment, they both work 'under the table' at a DZ.

Teachers don't get paid unemployment during the summer.

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Both have gotten their riggers rating & he; his TI & pilots license, in the last 2 years !

Understanding another TI, pilot & riggers are an asset to any DZ, they are both now trying to utilize their newly acquired ratings on to DZ's; in attempt to get full time positions, some others have as their only source of income during jump season.

Good for them. We call that capitalism. Strange how so many people here don't like it.

- Dan G

[skygypsie 2]

Good for them. We call that capitalism. Strange how so many people here don't like it
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I don't have a problem with capitalism nor free enterprise, but in this economic situation & in efforts of humankind...it's a bit discouraging for some to want it all !

There is no longer enough to go around !

Families have a hard enough time staying off the system to provide for their families after one or both have lost their incomes, causing those still in the workforce to pay for it !

The wheels on that bus then continue to go round & round against state & federal deficits !

In the meantime, 2 working people in one household fortunate enough to hold their jobs, who dispute cuts, and pursue efforts to subsidize their 2 income postions...by efforts that would reduce employment & income altogether of another's family !

Nothing like spreading the love for your fellow man

[DanG 1]

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I don't have a problem with capitalism nor free enterprise, but in this economic situation & in efforts of humankind...it's a bit discouraging for some to want it all !

Clearly you do have a problem with capitalism and free enterprise. You're complaining about people who spend time and money to learn new skills so they can better their lives. That's the American dream in a nutshell.

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Families have a hard enough time staying off the system to provide for their families after one or both have lost their incomes, causing those still in the workforce to pay for it !

What does that have to do with people working to better themselves?

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In the meantime, 2 working people in one household fortunate enough to hold their jobs, who dispute cuts, and pursue efforts to subsidize their 2 income postions...by efforts that would reduce employment & income altogether of another's family !

I suspect you'd dispute cuts to your pay and benefits, too. You're acting like capitalism is a zero sum game. If Joe Blow shows up at a DZ with a tandem rating, it doesn't automatically mean another tandem instructor is losing his job. If Joe Blow is a better instructor, or will work for less pay, or works harder, or whatever, that is competition, and that's what our economy is based on.

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Nothing like spreading the love for your fellow man

Maybe you'd prefer the government take all our money and distribute it equally? They have a word for that, it's not capitalism.

- Dan G

[TimBSky 0]

I come from a family of teachers. My mom is a retired teacher, my sister is a special education teacher, and my wife taught for 11 years before becoming a school counselor – only to get laid off and return to teaching and then get rehired as a counselor. My mom paid into her pension fund for all of the years she taught but had to choose between collecting my deceased father’s social security or her pension. The social security actually paid more so she chose to collect social security, thereby losing all of the money she put into her pension fund. In California, teacher’s do not pay into social security and pay 8% of their pay into a pension fund. Neither my sister, my mom, nor my wife have become wealthy as teachers despite having Master’s degrees and at least 6 years of education. If you compare their salaries to that of an average worker with a Bachelor’s or Master’s degree, their pay is probably at the lower end. I’m not unhappy with my wife's pay because she likes her job and knows that she’s doing something worthwhile. During the last 2 years, her pay has been cut by approximately $8000. She’ll likely take another pay cut next year. The union has agreed to the cuts since they basically have no choice, even with collective bargaining rights. Plus, the teachers have to vote on the cuts, which they did in order to avoid more layoffs. The following is a typical day for my wife as a teacher: leave the house at 6:45 AM and return home around 4:30 PM, spend a couple of hours with the kids and eat dinner, then work from 7:30 until 11:00 PM grading papers. Then, on the weekends, do lesson planning for about 5 or 6 hours. About once per month, she would spend most of the weekend grading and planning. She gets 2 1/2 months off for summer which is nice but by that time she has worked the equivalent of more than fifty 40 hour weeks.

I know that a lot of people have been hit hard by the recession and are upset about the benefits and outrageous pensions that some public employees have been able to get by manipulating the system. But the teachers didn’t cause the recession and they have been affected just like everyone else. It’s not like once they get laid off, they can just go out and find a position at another company. I don’t expect this to convince anyone, but I don’t think that most people have any idea about what it takes to be a teacher since the media only reports the more outrageous things because that’s what sells.

[skygypsie 2]

I've put in my time & paid my dues, & then some...so now it's ok to be "every man for himself" ?

I've worked & paid taxes for over 30 years.
I was also a Federal worker for over 20 years !

I totally understand cuts of pay & benefits !
Did I like it..of course not, but it was inevitable !

I was 48 went I went to college to become a nurse & then was trained as a DZ packer at 50.

Neither came with a free price tag !

I've chose to continue as a fulltime packer for 5 years, now !

I'm also fully aware of the operations of a dz -v- TI's, & the need for available fill ins, as my husband is also a full time DZ Staffer & TI, for nearly 11 years !

That being said, I find I'd rather go without, so my son's & their families, & my grandkids...or your grandkids, have something left for them !

However, a select few continue to have a sense of self entitlement, regardless of the affect on their colleagues...or what source their pay is generated from !

My point is in reflection of the thread, not 2 people working to benefit themselves.

They are just an example I was pointing out; we all have to go without some, whether we like it or not...so the quality of sustanence is maintained for those around & after us !

That is my definition of " The American Dream " !

[turtlespeed 212]

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Good for them. We call that capitalism.

Capitalism is working under the table for cash?

Thats a new definition I wasn't aware of.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DanG 1]

No, capitalism is earning additional ratings and skills so you can get a better job. If the DZ is paying them under the table, that's illegal. I don't recall seeing that in the post, but I may have missed it.

Either way, I think you understood my point the first time.

- Dan G

[dmcoco84 4]

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In fairness to the protestors, who I only partly support, they agreed to all the cuts a long time ago. The only thing they were protesting was the loss of collective bargaining.

According to the Gov... Untrue.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789//vp/42028092#42028092

[Channman 2]

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I don't believe anything in that article. It mentions the 41 rounds of .22 ammo found near the statehouse, and rushmc has already said that no media outlet would report that. It must be from the Onion.

Local news ( Fox 11 out of Green Bay & Fox 6 out of Milwaukee) did report 22 rounds were found by law enforcement on the grounds of the Capitol...

"peaceful "demonstrators" ( some acquaintences who were there) confirm they were found, but only 'planted' as an attention seeking message

This same individual also denies any damage to the tune of

The 700k or 7M (I have heard both) number is only a cost that is real if you use union workers, otherwise it would be about 1/7th that number.

We could get a couple of illegal Mexicans to do it for around $50K

Heh - maybe if it were in Texas

That's fine with me, as long as you have them back in a week, so I can get my lawn mowed.

[turtlespeed 212]

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No, capitalism is earning additional ratings and skills so you can get a better job. If the DZ is paying them under the table, that's illegal. I don't recall seeing that in the post, but I may have missed it.

Either way, I think you understood my point the first time.

Receiving is the same illegal as giving - except in your mind the company paying, is worse than the employee accepting.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DanG 1]

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Receiving is the same illegal as giving - except in your mind the company paying, is worse than the employee accepting.

Wow, talk about mind reading, Batman. I said I didn't notice that in the previous post. Both parties are breaking the law. When I jumped for money, I got a 1099 every year. If others are doing it illegally, shame on them.

Of course, all of this is beside the point, but you already know that.

- Dan G

[skygypsie 2]

The Govenor is speaking at this moment.

He points out this Budget Bill will save 1500 state jobs that otherwise would've been laid off effective April 1st.

Prior to the signing of the Bill, 1000's of lay off notices were set to go out.

It will save 10,000-12,000 state jobs over the next 2 years.

It will refrain the need of tax increases to the middle class incomes.

The benefits the state workers will have reduced; will still by far, be above the average middle class worker's benefits of the non public employee.

One purpose noted in eliminating issues of the collective bargaining abilities of the Unions, would give employees of higher merit & employment standards the opportunity of reduced likelihood of lay offs, or skipped over for promotions over those less qualified, but entitled due to seniority...giving the power to the local jurisdictions.

I think we've all seen that in our Union shops, in the past!

Ultimately the quality of production & outcome; as well as, the positive future of their workplace, as a whole, will stand a better chance of survival.

Case in point, a WI. teacher was awarded the "teacher of the year" award, but a week later was laid off due to her seniority.

The teachers have never conceded to any cuts.

The Governor had attempted to give the Democratic Senators the compromising ability to debate issues on behalf of the public workers via email, but each time they back pedaled.

What a way to support, back, & communicate for, & on behalf of, their constituents !

Unions are no less guilty of corruption, nor taking the working man's money for their own personal gain... then any government, nor political entity nor agenda !

[rushmc 18]

Your posts have been informative and factual

Thanks

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dmcoco84 4]

Along with her posts...

To reiterate: This is not a, "workers rights" issue.

Federal Employees... have no collective bargaining, at all. Why should state employees?


And nothing changes for private sector unions.

[rushmc 18]

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Along with her posts...

To reiterate: This is not a, "workers rights" issue.

Federal Employees... have no collective bargaining, at all. Why should state employees?


And nothing changes for private sector unions.

agreed

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[skygypsie 2]

Your posts have been informative and factual

Thanks

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your welcome

[LyraM45 0]

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Along with her posts...

To reiterate: This is not a, "workers rights" issue.

Federal Employees... have no collective bargaining, at all. Why should state employees?


And nothing changes for private sector unions.

Really? I am a federal workers and we have collective bargaining rights and agreements.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[dmcoco84 4]

Care to elaborate?

[Kennedy 0]

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Along with her posts...

To reiterate: This is not a, "workers rights" issue.

Federal Employees... have no collective bargaining, at all. Why should state employees?


And nothing changes for private sector unions.

Really? I am a federal workers and we have collective bargaining rights and agreements.

Are you a memeber of a union or other collective bargaining organization? If so, which one?

Politifact reports Obama made a campaign promise to "Restore collective bargaining rights to federal employees." That implies that most fed employees don't have collective bargaining rights.

From the same page, "Most federal employees do not have collective bargaining for benefits, nor for pay." is marked as a true statement.

So what makes it false as related to your position? (if you don't want to publish your specific position or agency, we will all understand)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[skygypsie 2]

I was a member of the APWU ( American Postal Worker's Union ) for 20 years, but retired a few years ago from the United States Postal Service.

Though, Postal is a Federal agency, they are a private entity !

Congress has had no intercession abilities with the agency...

Other then collecting dues, I found 'them' to do squat for the workers

I have had no clue what the status is of Unions -v- Postal Workers, since !

[Gravitymaster 0]

Collective Bargaining is not a "Right". It's a "Privilege" granted by an employer who happens to be, in this case, the tax paying citizens. The citizens (employers)are telling their employee's that they can no longer afford to give them all the privileges they were able to in the past due to budgetary constraints. If the employee wants to go on a vindictive childish rant, then the next step should be to fire them.

[chutem 0]

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Along with her posts...

To reiterate: This is not a, "workers rights" issue.

Federal Employees... have no collective bargaining, at all. Why should state employees?


And nothing changes for private sector unions.

Really? I am a federal workers and we have collective bargaining rights and agreements.

Are you a memeber of a union or other collective bargaining organization? If so, which one?

Politifact reports Obama made a campaign promise to "Restore collective bargaining rights to federal employees." That implies that most fed employees don't have collective bargaining rights.

From the same page, "Most federal employees do not have collective bargaining for benefits, nor for pay." is marked as a true statement.

So what makes it false as related to your position? (if you don't want to publish your specific position or agency, we will all understand)

http://ohmygov.com/blogs/general_news/archive/2009/02/02/a-look-at-federal-employee-unions.aspx

Here are some groups that appear to represent fed employees.

James

[skygypsie 2]

[kallend 1,623]

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Collective Bargaining is not a "Right". It's a "Privilege" granted by an employer who happens to be, in this case, the tax paying citizens. The citizens (employers)are telling their employee's that they can no longer afford to give them all the privileges they were able to in the past due to budgetary constraints. If the employee wants to go on a vindictive childish rant, then the next step should be to fire them.

I submit that in a free society, any group of citizens has a right to negotiate as a group if they wish.

Just as any group of stockholders is free to negotiate as a corporation, or not.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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Along with her posts...

To reiterate: This is not a, "workers rights" issue.

Federal Employees... have no collective bargaining, at all. Why should state employees?


And nothing changes for private sector unions.

Really? I am a federal workers and we have collective bargaining rights and agreements.

Are you a memeber of a union or other collective bargaining organization? If so, which one?

Politifact reports Obama made a campaign promise to "Restore collective bargaining rights to federal employees." That implies that most fed employees don't have collective bargaining rights.

No, it does not imply any such thing. It implies that there exist federal employees who don't have collective bargaining rights, but says nothing whatsoever about how many or few they may be..

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.