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kallend

Who do you believe on the economy?

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It's a rah-rah speech. It contains no specifics. it says he is confident in the American economy and the "American spirit." Whoop-dee-freakin-doo. If I could see what he was actually doing (and didn't think he was simply manipulating the market for his own benefit), I might put more stock in this.

He also put out that he's looking to acquire more assets. All that sauys to me is he thinks we've hit rock bottom and are on teh way up. (oddly enough, we've been on the way up since two years ago, so his crystal ball seems a bit behind the times)
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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I do not "believe" much of anything.

Going over the numbers, however, shows the U.S. economy to be analogous to Terri Schiavo or Karen Ann Quinlan.

The outcome for any society that has got themselves into the bind in which we find ourselves has been remarkably uniform, and our fate is thus inevitable.

Enjoy yourelf, it's later than you think.


BSBD,

Winsor

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The success of Wall Street is not related to most Americans.

Easy example ? The textile industry.
The companies did well when sending 96% of the jobs
to central America. Whole counties in the Carolina states
lost 90% of their employment.

Is Wall Street ok ? Sure.

Is the life of 90% of Americans improving ? No.

To Buffet, America is his rich friends. They'll be fine.

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I do not "believe" much of anything.



Did you get the "cynic" badge in the Boy Scouts?



Ironically enough, in preparation for my Eagle Scout board I was told that I had to claim some beliefs in order to meet the criterion of "reverent." To do so would have violated the admonition against lying, so that was that.

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I believe in my wallet.

When it's being robbed, the economy is down.
When it fattens up a little, the economy is up.

And it's been getting thinner and thinner for a long time now with no end in sight.

BillVon's "cyclic" is relative.
Yes, in this respect I'm a cynic, John.
That "cycle" spins in only one direction..down. The "cycle" is only about how fast it's spinning.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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The success of Wall Street is not related to most Americans.

Easy example ? The textile industry.
The companies did well when sending 96% of the jobs
to central America. Whole counties in the Carolina states
lost 90% of their employment.

Is Wall Street ok ? Sure.

Is the life of 90% of Americans improving ? No.

To Buffet, America is his rich friends. They'll be fine.



About time some of the Wall St. architects of the recession who benefitted greatly from it were in prison, IMO.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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prison , which i Agree IS a fair and reasonable end result of ANy sort of financial shenanigans,
is only a small part of the answer..

More important, would be Financial RESTITUTION
of all bonuses, options, and other "spoils of war"..
which some wall st. architects have managed to "transfer" from hundreds of thousands of hard working peoples' accounts,, (Ira's, 401ks etc ) into Their accounts...to the tune of Millions upon Millions

those charged with the "oversight" of the entire system.... were so derelict in that DUTY, that they Too....
should be taken to task..[:/]>:(
HOW to do it??? and then WHAt to do with the $$$$$, i do not know...
maybe put it ALL into the social security system..... i dunno...
jt

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not the "if" ore the "who" so much, but as you alluded, the "how" is the issue.

The system has more holes in it than swiss cheese and they've exploited it for their own gain. Which laws have been broken? If no laws have been broken, under what authority do we take their money?

indeed, the how is the problem.
--
Rob

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right.

but it seems that HOW is never a problem when it comes to some poor bastard who got overwhelmed by things, and winds up with a huge Tax Debt...
IF wages can be Garnished..
then why can't we tap the accounts of the High Flyers who benefited though shady and /or misleading deals.... and IF they KNEW they were involved in such matters,,,,,then add Punitive on top of the restitution...
Sadly.. it's likely that most of that money is 'offshore' or hidden elsewhere in the world... and thus, unreachable...
a real mess.....
i'm not any type of authority on Laws.... but there is such a thing as "common decency".. though many learn how to skirt such responsibility, simply by claiming. "fairness AND legal, are 2 different things.":S[:/]>:(
jmy

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>prison , which i Agree IS a fair and reasonable end result of ANy sort of
>financial shenanigans, is only a small part of the answer.

That's a tough one to enforce.

Let's say you were a pretty good banker. You gave people mortgages, and the rate of default on your mortgages was actually a little better than national average. How much time should you spend in prison?

Or let's say you were just an ordinary investor who sold some stock to pay expenses when the market started to tank. How long in jail then?

Or if you lost your job, and after your interest rate shot up could no longer pay your mortgage - how long then?

While there are certainly some Madoff-style villains, most of the people responsible for any recession are people who are just doing their jobs and making otherwise-normal financial decisions.

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I believe in my wallet.

When it's being robbed, the economy is down.
When it fattens up a little, the economy is up.

And it's been getting thinner and thinner for a long time now with no end in sight.

BillVon's "cyclic" is relative.
Yes, in this respect I'm a cynic, John.
That "cycle" spins in only one direction..down. The "cycle" is only about how fast it's spinning.



I believe that qualifies you as a realist.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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>That "cycle" spins in only one direction..down.

I'm better off than my parents. They were better off than their parents. Our standard of living has been going up for the past 200 years or so. Fewer people starve today than ever before. It looks to me like the direction, for the most part, is up.

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>prison , which i Agree IS a fair and reasonable end result of ANy sort of
>financial shenanigans, is only a small part of the answer.

That's a tough one to enforce.

** right and that's the frustrating part**

Let's say you were a pretty good banker. You gave people mortgages, and the rate of default on your mortgages was actually a little better than national average. How much time should you spend in prison?

**** no no no the banker who WAS following procedure and simply a part of the system should not necessarily be faulted... Unless he or she was fudging numbers, or adding 'points', or "working with realtors" in order to push through loans that were perilous.. :| Kickbacks can be in many forms, not always cash:|... if those sorts 'benefitted' above and beyond their paychecks... THEN , go after them>:(.*** [/mad]

Or let's say you were just an ordinary investor who sold some stock to pay expenses when the market started to tank. How long in jail then?



*** again.. Not the person that i would go after,,,I sure hope
we can't get jail time for being " between a rock and a hard place"..**

Or if you lost your job, and after your interest rate shot up could no longer pay your mortgage - how long then?...

***again no jail for THAT..but MAYBE some classes on How to NOT OVer-Extend,,, how to NOT Borrow the absolute MAX. that you may qualify for, ( on paper), and how to realize that deficit spending is NOT a sensible way of Life. That has caught up with many a sad soul..***:(:(

While there are certainly some Madoff-style villains, most of the people responsible for any recession are people who are just doing their jobs and making otherwise-normal financial decisions.



*** maybe,, how many of them were instinctively AWARE of potential "time Bomb Loans",,and ignored those feelings...
and those who had a gut feeling.... " Man these people are getting in waay over their heads," and simply justified things,,, because 'everyone is entitled to home ownership'..:S
There are many parts to the financial mess. and Mortgage loans are only 1.
The stock market is another... and maybe loss of jobs by the hundreds of thousands , is yet one more... All together, it's a simmering boil of a bad tasting soup...
My issues and grievances would be with the TOP level Corporate C E O.s who make in some cases, MORE than the sum TOTAl of the payrolls of their firms. WHO take bonuses on profits generated of the Backs of their workers.. Who weasel and finagle with the money they DO have, to grow it into Money that very FEW have, Huge brokerage houses whose Top players work on a % of the BILLIONS of dollars that go through their systems. ONE Per cent of a billion is TEN Million...:o

I'm pleased to see Anyone who is hard working and creative and who Produces something of good, and importance to everyone in our communities, prosper.. THAT is the American way... But wealthy fat Cats in the top end of the financial markets industries, really need to "stand Down" a bit, and somehow help to replenish and re-establish the integrity of many Many a pension fund, widows' savings account, or families' tuition savings,,,
before i would see them receive ANY type of compensation....Especially year after year!!! one bonus package on top of another...( and Oh Yes!!!let's be sure to give THEM a tax rate , Break!!! )

I don't know much about the S E C .. it's always been out of MY league.. But somebody was SLEEPING,,,, and it seems that very little ever changes...

As for "better today than in the past"...
perhaps.. but THAT is only for smart, educated, Hard working , common sense folks... Just like one might find HERE....;) at DZ dot com...B|

In reality, in our cities and rural areas alike.... LOTS of folks have it waaay worse than back in the last 3 or 4 decades of the 1,900s'... not sure if it'll get better first... or Worse.....


jt

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>no no no the banker who WAS following procedure and simply a part of
>the system should not necessarily be faulted.

Fair enough - but they were the majority of the problem. Not the few who actually lied/cheated/got kickbacks, but the vast majority who were doing what they saw as their jobs. Heck, some probably saw what they did as "working as hard as I can against the system to get this poor family the home they deserve."

>maybe,, how many of them were instinctively AWARE of potential "time
>Bomb Loans",,and ignored those feelings . . .

Probably relatively few. Most people really aren't actively stupid; they don't see a balloon payment warning and think "I think I will risk bankruptcy to get a bigger house!" They more likely think "this is like one of those waivers they always make me sign; yeah, it _might_ happen, but it almost never does - and if I don't sign I will miss out on a great deal."

>My issues and grievances would be with the TOP level Corporate C E O.s
>who make in some cases, MORE than the sum TOTAl of the payrolls of
>their firms. WHO take bonuses on profits generated of the Backs of their
>workers.. Who weasel and finagle with the money they DO have, to grow
>it into Money that very FEW have,

Well, that's almost the definition of what I do. I design systems that my company can sell and profit from (i.e. I demand money from the pocketbooks of ordinary consumers.) I get pretty good bonuses, and they come from a common pool (i.e. I take bonuses on profits generated of the backs of my workers.)

But again, that's not all that evil. If someone wants to pay a CEO a billion dollars a year, that's up to them. If someone wants to work for a CEO that makes a billion dollars a year, again, that's up to them. I suspect the vast majority of the Microsoft millionaires are pretty happy that Bill Gates made so much money.

And indeed during times of prosperity no one cares much about how much CEO's make. It's only during recessions that people think "wow, I just got laid off and he's making a billion dollars - get him!" But the morality of a given CEO's action doesn't change just because the economy is doing well or doing poorly.

Overall I think the primary tool the government has to wield are laws that require transparency and full disclosure in banking and stock market transactions. It won't keep people from doing stupid things, but will allow people to make better decisions. Given that the economy is driven by consumers, that's about all we can do. (Well, that and enforcing basic laws against theft, fraud etc.)

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I don't know much about the S E C .. it's always been out of MY league.. But somebody was SLEEPING,,,, and it seems that very little ever changes...



This isn't directly solely at you, but this quote certainly demonstrates the problem well.

If you have no idea what goes on with government regulators like the SEC (and there are many more), then what business do you have talking about this subject in the depth that you just did? Seems as criminal as whatever it is you think the bad people of Wall Street did.

It's very easy to make populist statements about how wall street is cheating Americans and the system is rigged and people need to be in jail for....something I don't understand one bit.

Meanwhile, the market has already surpassed its starting point before the 2008 meltdown and those of us who weren't looking for monsters under the bed came out better than we started. If you didn't get caught in the wrong place (home construction industry, or the wrong bank), the last two years were a great buying window. In 2001, I was not so lucky, and I had to sell equities rather than buy to make ends meet.

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I don't know much about the S E C ..


If you have no idea what goes on with government regulators like the SEC (and there are many more), then what business do you have talking about this subject in the depth that you just did? Seems as criminal as whatever it is you think the bad people of Wall Street did.

_________________________

i don't Know every Law in the Penal Code either, but i count on cops and sheriffs and local, state, and federal appointees to do That for me..:|

i don't know about all the details and regulations of the Food & Drug Administration either... BUt i count on the fact that Someone IS charged with "looking out for our safety" and to (hopefully ) see to it that certain criteria are met....
And so yes... i don't know ALL the ins and outs of the security and exchange commision, cause that's Not my job... But if it's funded by the state local and federal taxes that i pay, isn't it fair, that i at least HOPE that whoever is tasked w ith "watching the henHouse",, DOES so...??/ :|

"what business do i have , talking about this subject"????

well This is a community forum, it's a free country, and i may do as i please to kill time, between job assignments.....

I make no demands. i pose more questions than answers... but Each of us, may post as we like..
You sir, can decide whether to read, or not read, and can assign any level of value, to what someone else has posted... as you choose...

But my comments, whether you like or don't like, agree or don't agree, certainly do not rise to any level of being criminal!!!:S

I apologize to the OP
for being distracting, and moving away from the original question...

I tend to believe my balance sheet,,, and the tipping of the scales, between what i deposit, for work that has been completed and what i withdraw to pay all expenses, wages, overheads, taxes and insurance premiums :(

What all the other "news agencies " "experts", "pundits" and "spokespersons" SAY...
matters very little to me... I tend to feel that they Each have one agenda or another, which cloud their judgement...
jmy

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>That "cycle" spins in only one direction..down.

I'm better off than my parents. They were better off than their parents. Our standard of living has been going up for the past 200 years or so. Fewer people starve today than ever before. It looks to me like the direction, for the most part, is up.



:D:D
I warned you I was a cynic.
In contrast, I hope my son will be better off than I was, too.

I did notice the qualifier "most part" and you are not wrong, IMO.
The realist comes in because MY cost of living has gone UP and the income is not keeping pace and I believe that is true for many Americans. I'm spending more on necessities than before. AND, with goobermint telling me I'll have to make a necessity out of what was a luxury, it just gets worse and worse and worse.

My money is worth less and less as time goes by.

I wonder...how much of that "better off than my parents" includes products and services that were not available to them?
For example, we're better off because we, as a nation, have better medical expertise available.

Well, IMO, the direct comparison doesn't appear to be valid if we're going to weight one side with options not available to the other. In that light, how can one say that we are really any better off?

But then on the other hand, maybe that's what it's all about...we enjoy options that they didn't have...with no consideration of increased costs.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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>I wonder...how much of that "better off than my parents" includes products
>and services that were not available to them?

A large amount. There are services and products that were simply not available to them that are available to us. We are used to being able to fly as a primary means of transportation. Foodborne illness is almost unheard of. We have cars that are cheaper (in adjusted dollars) safer and more efficient than cars of 20 years ago. The Internet has transformed society, and high quality digital TV is now the standard, not a luxury for the rich.

>My money is worth less and less as time goes by.

Agreed - but that's always been true. Inflation is a byproduct of economic growth and has been around for a long time.

>we enjoy options that they didn't have...with no consideration of increased costs.

Well, obviously we _do_ consider the increased costs; read any newspaper to hear about the crushing price of gas, the affordable housing shortage etc. But I think you're right that all the options we have today result in people spending more without a corresponding increase in income.

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About time some of the Wall St. architects of the recession who benefitted greatly from it were in prison, IMO.



I quoted this the other day, in another thread.
Quote

I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States. I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the Bank. ... You are a den of vipers and thieves.
—Andrew Jackson in 1834 on closing the Second Bank of the United States.[2]



Old news.
So, they make money, they pocket it.
They lose money, the taxpayers reimburse their losses
after they have received their exorbitant salaries and bonuses.

What happened to the day when they jumped from windows?
No need to. They won't be broke like the rest of us.

When people talk about a recession, it is a concept of the middle class, not the rich.
The rich live in the global world and do not care
which flavor of employees they have. America can drown
for all they care.

Right now, in my group, they are outsourcing the employees jobs.
The middle class will suffer. The stock market will rise.

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