Why are zygote, embryo and fetus simply synonyms for human being?

[wmw999 2,121]

No, it's the emergence from the womb that matters to him. In countries with no tax break or SSN, I doubt that his answer would change with regards to timing.

Of course, we could ask him.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[maadmax 0]

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>The physiology of an embryo is totally separate from it's mother.

?? Uh, no, it's not. The embryo gets oxygen and nutrition from its mother. If the mother drinks alcohol, the embryo is exposed as well, because their physiologies are very intimately connected.

Except for oxygen, the same is true for breast milk, does that also mean the baby lacks an independent physiology? How does the process by which we acquire our oxidative sources of energy have anything to do with human life?

[billvon 2,396]

>How does the process by which we acquire our oxidative sources of energy
>have anything to do with human life?

?? It doesn't. But again, a tumor meets that definition as well. It's similar, but not identical, to your genome. It just gets its source of oxidative energy from your blood directly instead of through a placenta.

Which illustrates how stupid all these semantic arguments are. The only person whose opinion really matters to a fetus is the person carrying that fetus. (Which right now has to be a woman, but in 50 years - who knows?)

[rushmc 18]

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No, it's the emergence from the womb that matters to him. In countries with no tax break or SSN, I doubt that his answer would change with regards to timing.

Of course, we could ask him.

Wendy P.

go ahead and ask him

ya

Like he has given and honest answer on any damned thing here ever

I think he was very clear

Life has a dollar value to him

Me?

Not so much

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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>How does the process by which we acquire our oxidative sources of energy
>have anything to do with human life?

?? It doesn't. But again, a tumor meets that definition as well. It's similar, but not identical, to your genome. It just gets its source of oxidative energy from your blood directly instead of through a placenta.

Which illustrates how stupid all these semantic arguments are. The only person whose opinion really matters to a fetus is the person carrying that fetus. (Which right now has to be a woman, but in 50 years - who knows?)

Great

Baby = tumor

We get it

It is all about defintions

Life again minimized

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Lindsey 0]

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I'm trying to understand why folks think that the immediate results of an egg and a sperm uniting are a human being?

I don't. I really, really don't. I don't think abortion is a great idea, but emphatically think it should be legal, particularly in the first 4 months or so. Yes, 4.

But I'm interested in why people think it is a full-on human being. But reasons, not just assertions.

Wendy P.

There are many, many who don't get it like you. I think it's the bible belt...the preachers...who keep people from being rational. Maybe I'm wrong. It IS National Margarita Day, after all.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[wmw999 2,121]

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It IS National Margarita Day, after all.

Dagnabbit -- and here I didn't have one. I'll have to make up for it on the weekend
Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 18]

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I'm trying to understand why folks think that the immediate results of an egg and a sperm uniting are a human being?

I don't. I really, really don't. I don't think abortion is a great idea, but emphatically think it should be legal, particularly in the first 4 months or so. Yes, 4.

But I'm interested in why people think it is a full-on human being. But reasons, not just assertions.

Wendy P.

There are many, many who don't get it like you. I think it's the bible belt...the preachers...who keep people from being rational. Maybe I'm wrong. It IS National Margarita Day, after all.

wow

getting it means what you post?

How about getting it but just not agreeing with it?

That makes me a bible belter???


that is some jump

Life means alot to me

The debate is when it begins IMO here

If I feel it begins the first night I am some kind of bible thumper??

How about you and kallend getting together and maybe make bets on it

That makes it about money

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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>How does the process by which we acquire our oxidative sources of energy
>have anything to do with human life?

?? It doesn't. But again, a tumor meets that definition as well. It's similar, but not identical, to your genome. It just gets its source of oxidative energy from your blood directly instead of through a placenta.

Which illustrates how stupid all these semantic arguments are. The only person whose opinion really matters to a fetus is the person carrying that fetus. (Which right now has to be a woman, but in 50 years - who knows?)

I cant wait for guys like the reptile... to have the technology of an artificial Uterus so they can take on all the responsibility for reproducing their own spawn. Just think of all the women cheering with glee

[rushmc 18]

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Quote

>How does the process by which we acquire our oxidative sources of energy
>have anything to do with human life?

?? It doesn't. But again, a tumor meets that definition as well. It's similar, but not identical, to your genome. It just gets its source of oxidative energy from your blood directly instead of through a placenta.

Which illustrates how stupid all these semantic arguments are. The only person whose opinion really matters to a fetus is the person carrying that fetus. (Which right now has to be a woman, but in 50 years - who knows?)

I cant wait for guys like the reptile... to havethe technology an artificial Uterus so they can take on all the responsibility for reproducing their own spawn. Just think of all the women cheering with glee

I wish you and your reptile a happy life

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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Quote

Quote

>How does the process by which we acquire our oxidative sources of energy
>have anything to do with human life?

?? It doesn't. But again, a tumor meets that definition as well. It's similar, but not identical, to your genome. It just gets its source of oxidative energy from your blood directly instead of through a placenta.

Which illustrates how stupid all these semantic arguments are. The only person whose opinion really matters to a fetus is the person carrying that fetus. (Which right now has to be a woman, but in 50 years - who knows?)

I cant wait for guys like the reptile... to havethe technology an artificial Uterus so they can take on all the responsibility for reproducing their own spawn. Just think of all the women cheering with glee

I wish you and your reptile a happy life

WHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

[rushmc 18]

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Quote

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>How does the process by which we acquire our oxidative sources of energy
>have anything to do with human life?

?? It doesn't. But again, a tumor meets that definition as well. It's similar, but not identical, to your genome. It just gets its source of oxidative energy from your blood directly instead of through a placenta.

Which illustrates how stupid all these semantic arguments are. The only person whose opinion really matters to a fetus is the person carrying that fetus. (Which right now has to be a woman, but in 50 years - who knows?)

I cant wait for guys like the reptile... to havethe technology an artificial Uterus so they can take on all the responsibility for reproducing their own spawn. Just think of all the women cheering with glee

I wish you and your reptile a happy life

WHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

That is what it is like?

No wonder it makes you happy/satisfied

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[champu 1]

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I think he was very clear

Life has a dollar value to him

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Great

Baby = tumor

We get it

I can't decide if you're unwilling or unable to see how misrepresentative these statements are regarding the points they were trying to make.

[rushmc 18]

Wendy

I fully realize that framing the debate ( the perspective from which it is debated) can have a large impact on the direction of the debate

I feel you framed it honestly and therefore there have been some interesting exchanges in this thread

Except for a few it has seemed honest, open and real

You and I disagree when life begins and you know full well my conflicts with sex, babies, life and a women’s right to choose what happens to her body and the responsibilities that are attached to all the above.

In the end responsibility is, in the end, what this is all about. Each has to live with the choices made. But what is nearly always left out is the short term and long term effects of the choices made concerning this and the effect on society and how that society views life

A consideration not lost on me. I don’t think it is lost on you either

So it boils down to what is important

Ones right to choice, or views on life.

Where is the line to be drawn?

On this I remain conflicted

But I know what my heart tells me

So I will go with that

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

I think he was very clear

Life has a dollar value to him

Quote

Great

Baby = tumor

We get it

I can't decide if you're unwilling or unable to see how misrepresentative these statements are regarding the points they were trying to make.

I fully understand the points and definitions

I guess life is more than that to me

Unwilling? Unable?

You or me?

You imply I am unable to see a truth

Who's truth?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,121]

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the effect on society and how that society views life

I actually think that our society views life as far more sacred than nearly any previous one. We don't have slaves, we don't (generally) have indentured servants; we expect people to have at least emergency medical care; we preserve the lives of people whose ability to enjoy that life is long past (think permanent and irreversible coma, or spending millions to keep babies alive who are unlikely ever to have a meaningful thought).

Personally, I think that life is finite, and when it ends is important generally only to the individual, and to his or her immediate family and friends. It's a shame when it ends early, but it does happen.

That doesn't mean that we should seek to hasten it willy-nilly, but it's also really not the be-all and end-all, other than for us.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 18]

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the effect on society and how that society views life

I actually think that our society views life as far more sacred than nearly any previous one. We don't have slaves, we don't (generally) have indentured servants; we expect people to have at least emergency medical care; we preserve the lives of people whose ability to enjoy that life is long past (think permanent and irreversible coma, or spending millions to keep babies alive who are unlikely ever to have a meaningful thought).

Personally, I think that life is finite, and when it ends is important generally only to the individual, and to his or her immediate family and friends. It's a shame when it ends early, but it does happen.

That doesn't mean that we should seek to hasten it willy-nilly, but it's also really not the be-all and end-all, other than for us.

Wendy P.

I agree with the first part of your post

But we are headed in the oposite direction today IMO

I base that on how we see the responcibility related to this.

Life is finite

Does that mean we get the choice of when it should end?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[maadmax 0]

You imply I am unable to see a truth

Who's truth?

[rushmc 18]

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You imply I am unable to see a truth

Who's truth?

It the truth that hedonism underpins reality. Our society has been sold a bill of goods that if an unborn human inconveniences it mother, she has the right to terminate it, prior to birth. After that she is called a murderer

[Amazon 7]

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You imply I am unable to see a truth

Who's truth?

It's the truth that hedonism underpins reality. Our society has been sold a bill of goods that if an unborn human inconveniences it mother, she has the right to terminate it, prior to birth. After that she is called a murderer

[wmw999 2,121]

When do you think that the egg+sperm combination becomes a human being, with all of the rights and privileges of one? Why do you think that?

Do you think that the law is remiss in not letting an embryo have a SS number?

And no, women who have abortions, particularly early abortions, are not murderers in any sense. Even the Bible doesn't say that they are.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[maadmax 0]

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When do you think that the egg+sperm Do you think that the law is remiss in not letting an embryo have a SS number?

And no, women who have abortions, particularly early abortions, are not murderers in any sense. Even the Bible doesn't say that they are.

Wendy P.

When do any us become a human being? Are the hate crazed religious fanatics human beings? Are those consumed with themselves above other, human beings? Human life begins at the diploid stage of existence.


...

[wmw999 2,121]

So in other words, you believe that use of an IUD constitutes murder?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[champu 1]

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I think he was very clear

Life has a dollar value to him

Quote

Great

Baby = tumor

We get it

I can't decide if you're unwilling or unable to see how misrepresentative these statements are regarding the points they were trying to make.

I fully understand the points and definitions

I guess life is more than that to me

Unwilling? Unable?

You or me?

You imply I am unable to see a truth

Who's truth?

Kallend said nothing more than that his view is that human-being-ship starts at birth, and before that it's solely the mother's business. His brining up that this coincides with getting a SSN and becoming a dependent on a tax return was tongue-in-cheek.

Billvon brought up tumors to deconstruct maadmax's argument regarding separate physiology. If you introduce a premise to make your argument and someone can show that your premise leads to an absurd conclusion (in this case the absurd conclusion that baby = tumor) then you discard the premise from the argument and try to come up with a something else. It's simply a means of discourse and in no way implies that the person actually believes the absurd conclusion.

[maadmax 0]

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So in other words, you believe that use of an IUD constitutes murder?

Wendy P.

No. But it does terminate human life.