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dreamdancer

Why It's Not a 'Safe Bet' to Believe In God

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Why is it so many self proclaimed agnostics or atheists get so bent when Scriptures are cited ?

Though I think most organized religions have their own writings of faith, I can only comment on the Christian writings: The Bible.

Many individuals I have engaged in defy the belief based on the Bible, because of lack of their 1st hand confirmation, nor witness.

We have tendancies to believe most instruction manuals & educational writings based on specific fields of interest or studies.
( e.g. the SIMS, Avaition technology, our specific professional field of training & educational teachings)

So many of us can not, nor will not, grasp, but will absolutely disavow writings of the Bible, or the teachings of Christ.

Is it because we do not know somebody, who knew somebody...who experienced & witnessed any of the writings ?

Scripture's authors do claim 1st hand knowledge & confirmation, so why are these too incredulous to be validated ?

Is it because pride and arrogance in our human species is so much so, we don't have the capacity to take on an understanding there is ONE who is so powerful & almighty...or that our brains & intellect do not have the capability to comprehend the possibility ?

When it comes down to it, it really doesn't matter who, or what we do not believe in as a whole...the outcome is purely individual !

BTW:
For the Christian record...Pride is one of the 7 deadly sins

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yea, just what i'm saying, my jewels!

:D:D:D



Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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ron, as usual, you get personal. and if you were a real christian.. you wouldnt do that, you're just another looney.. and if someone calls you out on your psychosis, they'll get their one warning. bigotry all over the place, i can only feel sorry for you.

and skyrider/craterpond/skygipsie.. well, i'm not saying anything about that, too fed up with this shit.
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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ron, as usual, you get personal. and if you were a real christian.. you wouldnt do that, you're just another looney.. and if someone calls you out on your psychosis, they'll get their one warning. bigotry all over the place, i can only feel sorry for you.

and skyrider/craterpond/skygipsie.. well, i'm not saying anything about that, too fed up with this shit.



Proverbs 3:4-6 (King James Version)

4So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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I read the original post. I was looking forward to the logical argument that was promised. Four paragraphs later, it was just a rant. The link might have lead to logic, but I wasn't willing to invest the time to find out (having been duped into reading so far).

I can see the cited Argument as being consistent with Jefferson's theory that whether my neighbor believes in one god, or twenty, or none at all; it neither lightens my purse or breaks my leg. If so, the argument is 'why are you trying to make me an atheist?'

I find atheists that proselytize identical to religious people who proselytize. Both hope to change my viewpoint to their own, but not necessarily for my benefit.

Personally, I don't know. I choose to believe in a God, but not one defined by organized churches. If you convince me there is no god; beware. I am extremely intelligent, well trained, in excellent condition and just a bit lazy and vindictive. As soon as you convince me there is no ultimate consequence to my actions unless man can enforce them, I'm likely to kill you and take your wallet. Of course, I'll make it look like an accident. :)

I'm playing here, but think about it. Why wouldn't I turn to a life of profitable criminal enterprise? The social contract? Fear of the legal system? A warm, fuzzy feeling inside?

I scoff.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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Romans 10:9 (King James Version)

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 (King James Version)

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Before you can be saved, you must admit to yourself you are lost. Self must die first. Sorrow must be felt. Suggest William Wilson, MD, Former Director of Psychiatry, Duke University c.1983, as a reference.




Ron, the problem is that you don't know how to explain to people who are certain that they've seen the light that they're looking at an LED instead of the sun. You're good at dealing with people who are stumbling around in the dark banging their shins on the coffee table, but not so good at talking to those who've found a flashlight and are content with that. If you can show them that there's so much more than what they can see with just that little light, then they might realize just how much dark is still there.

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As soon as you convince me there is no ultimate consequence to my actions . . . Why wouldn't I turn to a life of profitable criminal enterprise?



Why don't you? Is it only because of your fear of the "ultimate" consequence? Or does it also have to do with aversion to more immediate consequences?

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As soon as you convince me there is no ultimate consequence to my actions . . . Why wouldn't I turn to a life of profitable criminal enterprise?



Why don't you? Is it only because of your fear of the "ultimate" consequence? Or does it also have to do with aversion to more immediate consequences?


I know how much my mom would nag me. :D
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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yup, you must definitely be his biggest failure.. :D:D:D



1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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Personally I couldnt care any less whether someone beleives in God or not. It cannot be proved one way or the other, so it's a fool's aregument to try and win it. I know what I believe and that is what matters to me.

The following arguments and statements always amuse me though when made about this subject:

"Open your eyes"
"Science says"
"No proof"
"People can't think for themselves"
"Blind Faith"

All of these statements/arguments plus many more were directed at people who believed in Heliocentrism before it was later widely accepted.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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Romans 10:9 (King James Version)

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 (King James Version)

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Before you can be saved, you must admit to yourself you are lost. Self must die first. Sorrow must be felt. Suggest William Wilson, MD, Former Director of Psychiatry, Duke University c.1983, as a reference.




Ron, the problem is that you don't know how to explain to people who are certain that they've seen the light that they're looking at an LED instead of the sun. You're good at dealing with people who are stumbling around in the dark banging their shins on the coffee table, but not so good at talking to those who've found a flashlight and are content with that. If you can show them that there's so much more than what they can see with just that little light, then they might realize just how much dark is still there.



Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Arguments with adolescents are useless. I have the victory in Jesus Christ. I only wish to share the path to that victory with others who seek or need salvation from their sorrow, mental anguish, double bind, bondage in sin, whatever. I will not invest more in their salvation than they are willing to invest.

I know, from my previous interactions with you, that you mean to provide wise counsel and I thank you for your efforts.

In this thread I'm going to see how far I can go with just Scripture, which is derived from the Holy Spirit inspired writings of 44 authors in 66 books covering a period of 1500 years.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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Ron is right in that quote though... If you're a Christian following the word of God and the bible, you WILL try your best to spread the word, it's what God asks of you as a Christian, it is your sole duty to try spread the gospel while living your life according to his teachings.

Sadly that's just the way it is, those Christians who choose not to preach it and try convert people, they're not living their lives the way God really asks.

It's why I don't really have a preference to Christians who preach and those who don't... They just better not moan when I take the oppositions side and try to get the other side of the story heard too.

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Ron is right in that quote though... If you're a Christian following the word of God and the bible, you WILL try your best to spread the word, it's what God asks of you as a Christian, it is your sole duty to try spread the gospel while living your life according to his teachings.

Sadly that's just the way it is, those Christians who choose not to preach it and try convert people, they're not living their lives the way God really asks.

It's why I don't really have a preference to Christians who preach and those who don't... They just better not moan when I take the oppositions side and try to get the other side of the story heard too.



------------------------------------------------------------
AMEN...seriously !

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Ron is right in that quote though... If you're a Christian following the word of God and the bible, you WILL try your best to spread the word, it's what God asks of you as a Christian, it is your sole duty to try spread the gospel while living your life according to his teachings.

Sadly that's just the way it is, those Christians who choose not to preach it and try convert people, they're not living their lives the way God really asks.

It's why I don't really have a preference to Christians who preach and those who don't... They just better not moan when I take the oppositions side and try to get the other side of the story heard too.



1. You presume this is the unfalible word of God. That means you throw out all of the facts regarding it's arrival in current form.

2. You apparently do not know what this meant in Hebrew. The ones who translated this did not understand the concept of witness stones and translated it to witness. To a Jew, the first has meaning. The second has a completely different meaning. It's important.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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that's a lot of old shit from a lot of douchebags..

and they didnt even get the scripture translated right. the "virgin mary" was just a "young woman". pretty much everything is obsolete from there.

again, you like calling people names, and you think you're somewhat better than others.. that doesnt make you a "christian", quite the opposite in fact.

i can live with that, obviously, you still have the urge to convert people. there's a saying that goes something like "sweep before your own door before you complain about your neighbours". i think that applies in your case..
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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As soon as you convince me there is no ultimate consequence to my actions . . . Why wouldn't I turn to a life of profitable criminal enterprise?



Why don't you? Is it only because of your fear of the "ultimate" consequence? Or does it also have to do with aversion to more immediate consequences?


I know how much my mom would nag me. :D


For those reasons and possibly many more.

Maybe you're the kind of person that doesn't do things they know is wrong, regardless of what they think they can get away with.

Or maybe you use the "How would I feel if this was done to me?" rule,

None of this requires religion or belief in any diety...
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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-The part about you bashing those who believe in God.
-The part about you telling anyone that your way of thinking is right and theirs is wrong.
-The abject arrogance of it all.



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The last 2 are pretty natural traits.


It's natural to tell people you are right and they are wrong?
It's natural to be arrogant about it?

Sorry. I disagree.


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Everyone thinks they are right and those who disagree are wrong.


It's not about the believing or the thinking, it's about the arrogant telling.


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As for arrogance, arrogance is merely the outward portrayal of high confidence in what you believe and the willingness to express it.


I refer you to Coreece's posted definition of arrogance.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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As soon as you convince me there is no ultimate consequence to my actions . . . Why wouldn't I turn to a life of profitable criminal enterprise?



Why don't you? Is it only because of your fear of the "ultimate" consequence? Or does it also have to do with aversion to more immediate consequences?


I know how much my mom would nag me. :D


For those reasons and possibly many more.

Maybe you're the kind of person that doesn't do things they know is wrong, regardless of what they think they can get away with.

Or maybe you use the "How would I feel if this was done to me?" rule,

None of this requires religion or belief in any diety...


I've done a bit of studying on religion. There is a lot of Judaism that is just good common sense. One of those things is what Christians call The Golden Rule. However, like so much else, it was not translated correctly. The one you know is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Stupid rule.

I would have you all give me your money, but I'm clearly not going to give you mine.

Stupid rule.

Let's try the correct translation: Whatever is harmful to you, do not do to others. Wow! That rule makes good sense. I would not want you stealing from me, so I will not steal from you. And it's easy to follow. It takes no action on my part. It just requires that I 'Live and let live'. Wow! What a common sense philosophy. Learning this bit of information was part of me becoming a libertarian. And it is why I haven't killed you for your wallet. :D
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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There are some extremely educated Christian scholars.



There are indeed but nonsense, no matter how well articulated, or how well hidden beneath layers of psuedo-philosophical waffle, remains nonsense.

(And those whose only qualifications are in theology, that really doesn't count as education.)

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The problem is that they get drowned out by a lot of the idiots that manage to get themselves on television and wander around handing out tracts.



That is a problem, sure. The other one would be that no-one has ever managed to come up with an intellectually sound argument for faith (never mind any specific brand of faith) that would stand up even if it wasn't drowned out by the crazies.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Is it because we do not know somebody, who knew somebody...who experienced & witnessed any of the writings ?



Moreso that they're translations of translations of tranlations transcribed numerous time of stories told for generations before ever actually being written down.

Not to mention each revsion may have been done by one with a personal agenda.

Remember the telephone game kids play?
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You would whisper a short sentence into someone's ear, and they would then turn and whisper it to the person seated on their other side. By the time the message had passed through a dozen people it was so different from the original it had everyone giggling hysterically.



The Bible is sorta like that. :)
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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There are some extremely educated Christian scholars.



There are indeed but nonsense, no matter how well articulated, or how well hidden beneath layers of psuedo-philosophical waffle, remains nonsense.

(And those whose only qualifications are in theology, that really doesn't count as education.)

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The problem is that they get drowned out by a lot of the idiots that manage to get themselves on television and wander around handing out tracts.



That is a problem, sure. The other one would be that no-one has ever managed to come up with an intellectually sound argument for faith (never mind any specific brand of faith) that would stand up even if it wasn't drowned out by the crazies.



Have you read Summa Theologica?

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Romans 10:9 (King James Version)

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 (King James Version)

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Before you can be saved, you must admit to yourself you are lost. Self must die first. Sorrow must be felt. Suggest William Wilson, MD, Former Director of Psychiatry, Duke University c.1983, as a reference.




Ron, the problem is that you don't know how to explain to people who are certain that they've seen the light that they're looking at an LED instead of the sun. You're good at dealing with people who are stumbling around in the dark banging their shins on the coffee table, but not so good at talking to those who've found a flashlight and are content with that. If you can show them that there's so much more than what they can see with just that little light, then they might realize just how much dark is still there.



Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Arguments with adolescents are useless. I have the victory in Jesus Christ. I only wish to share the path to that victory with others who seek or need salvation from their sorrow, mental anguish, double bind, bondage in sin, whatever. I will not invest more in their salvation than they are willing to invest.

I know, from my previous interactions with you, that you mean to provide wise counsel and I thank you for your efforts.

In this thread I'm going to see how far I can go with just Scripture, which is derived from the Holy Spirit inspired writings of 44 authors in 66 books covering a period of 1500 years.




I don't think that passage means what you think it means. Some notes from Gill:

For Christ sent me not to baptize,.... Some think the apostle refers to his particular mission from Christ, Acts 26:16 in which no mention is made of his administering the ordinance of baptism; but no doubt he had the same mission the rest of the apostles had, which was to baptize as well as preach; and indeed, if he had not been sent at all to baptize, it would have been unlawful for him to have administered baptism to any person whatever; but his sense is, that baptism was not the chief and principal business he was sent about; this was to be done mostly by those preachers of the word who travelled with him, or followed after him: he was not sent so much about this work, but to preach the Gospel; for which he was most eminently qualified, had peculiar gifts for the discharge of it, and was greatly useful in it. This was what he was rather sent to do than the other, and this "not with wisdom of words". Scholastic divinity, or the art of disputation, is by the (f) Karaites, a sect among the Jews, called , "wisdom of words": this the apostle seems to refer to, and signifies he was not sent with, or to preach, with words of man's wisdom, with human eloquence and oratory, with great swelling words of vanity, but in a plain, humble, modest manner; on which account the false teachers despised him, and endeavoured to bring his ministry into contempt with others: but this way and manner of preaching he chose for this reason, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect; that is, either lest men's ears and fancies should be so tickled and pleased with the eloquence of speech, the elegancy of diction, and accuracy of expression, the cadency of words, and beauty of the oration, with the manner, and not with the matter of preaching, and so the true use, end, and design of the doctrine of a crucified Christ be defeated; or lest the success of the ministry should be attributed to the force of enticing words, and the strength and persuasion of oratory, and not to the energy of divine power attending the doctrine of the cross..."



What the passage is trying to say is not to get caught up in flowery words, not to fail to be able to answer the questions of those you are speaking to.

I've actually witnessed the following conversation, on the street of a crowded promenade.

Preacher: "Jesus loves you! He died for you!"
Passerby, with apparently genuine curiosity: "Why?"
Preacher: "um...because!"

The crowd the rather enthusiastic guy had gathered pretty much all drifted away at this point. One single, probably genuine question threw this guy for a loop, and because of that everyone stopped listening. Not because they doubted his message, but because they doubted HIM, questioned his credibility, and therefore doubted the authenticity of his message.

There are lots of seekers who have questions. Someone who preaches the Gospel should be prepared to have an open dialogue with someone, not merely to talk at them. Talking at someone leads to uncomfortable smiling, nodding, and backing away slowly, and if people are backing away from you, they're also backing away from your message.

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Is it because we do not know somebody, who knew somebody...who experienced & witnessed any of the writings ?



Moreso that they're translations of translations of tranlations transcribed numerous time of stories told for generations before ever actually being written down.

Not to mention each revsion may have been done by one with a personal agenda.

Remember the telephone game kids play?
Quote

You would whisper a short sentence into someone's ear, and they would then turn and whisper it to the person seated on their other side. By the time the message had passed through a dozen people it was so different from the original it had everyone giggling hysterically.



The Bible is sorta like that. :)


Yes...and then a resounding 'no'. Most modern translations go back to the sinaiticus. The Dead Sea Scrolls pre-date the Sinaiticus by about a thousand years (if I remember correctly. Feel free to research.) and the precision is in the 98% range. Most of that is just human error and no skullduggery.

The King James Version? Political correctness galore. But most modern translations fall short in that they are translated by non-Hebrew speakers who do not understand culture and literature of 2,000 years ago. The New Testament in context means something totally different from what almost all Christians believe it to mean. Even after all of my studying on the subject, I presume I have missed about half the meaning because of the 2,000 year gap.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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