DEFINED: Small and Limited Government

[dmcoco84 4]

What philosophy produced... American Exceptionalism?

45 Simple Words:

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men.

That... is the core, of American Exceptionalism.


Philosophy of American Government:

Three Simple Principles:

1. There is a Divine Creator

We, from a government standpoint... not individuals, yes individuals too... but, the government says; we in the government believe there is a Creator. That is what our document says, we acknowledge the Creator.

2. The Divine Creator gives inalienable rights to man

We believe that that Creator gives certain guaranteed rights to man.

3. Government exists to secure those rights to man

We believe that government exists to secure the rights that God gives to every individual... it is not collectively... its individuals.

If you don’t get that philosophy down... you will never have, Limited Government.


Limited Government is not the size of government. It is the scope of influence of government... it is the intrusion; its what it gets into.

That is what our Founders understood. If our rights don’t come from God, they must come from man, they must come from government. If government gives you something, government has the right to take it away, to regulate, or abolish whatever it gives. Therefore, if rights come from man... government is allowed to get into anything.

This... is the American Experiment.

In 1831, Alexis de Tocqueville came here and saw what the Founders had done; he called it exceptional, and did not believe any other nation would do what they had done.

And to this day... no other nation or people have.


As I have said many times before, the difference between the French and American Revolution: Collectivism vs. Individualism. Collectivism... is Godless.



With an honest desire for the truth... it is easily seen, that our Founders had a very strong faith in God.

Yet... we are told, Secular Nation... Godless Constitution. The Founding Fathers were Atheists, Agnostics, Deists... and so on.

Fortunately for us... they wrote everything down. To name a few: George Washington has 100 volumes of published writings. John Adams has 33, and Franklin has 40. Both Madison and Hamilton have 60. And they wanted to make sure we had access, to everything.

Article 1 section 5 paragraph 3 of the US Constitution: requires that everything that happens on the floor of the house and senate be recorded into public record so it can be seen by the people.

And it can be seen from historical records, that on Day 1: Sept. 6th, 1774... our Founding Fathers opened with prayer... the prayer session lasted, for two hours.



The Articles of Confederation was drafted and signed by those same men... and it was a mess.

Our Founders were terrified of an oppressive central government. Congress under the Articles had very little power. One power in particular Congress did not have: the power to regulate Interstate Commerce.

That was changed, because of tariffs... The purpose of the Commerce Clause was to prevent states from imposing tariffs on out of state goods. The very reason the country came together under the Constitution to form a new government, was to get rid of the ruinous taxation that were occurring under the Articles.

Not only was this clause not written to authorize Congress to write any law it wants, it was a Negative! It was authorized to ensure there were no tariffs. Not to say to Congress: you can regulate commerce, you can regulate the wages of those that work in interstate commerce, or to say how many legs are on chairs, or the amount of wood used in tables.

At the time it was written, Regulate, meant: To maintain regularity/to keep regular - Under The Law.

Not to create new laws...



Under the Constitution... we have Federalism.

As I posted previously, in Illegal Drugs and Gun:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4041314;page=unread#unread

Quote

Its... Natural Rights.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men

The Government does not exist to tell you what to do or how to live, or to create new regulations... it exists, ONLY, to protect your rights, that come from God.

Justice - The Law... is fully based on, God's Law... Natural Law.

If your rights come from God... if your life comes from God.

Than who owns your body after God?

You.

That... is a Founding Principle.



So... under a Federalist system. Where the Federal government is created by the States.
Not a National Government. (We are nearly functioning as a National Government)

National Government - Top Down - Full Ability to Regulate Anything

Articles of Confederation - A mess - too weak - No central power.

Federal Government - Only 16 powers... weak central control.... INTENTIONAL WEAK CENTRAL CONTROL



There are only 16 powers enumerated to the Federal Government. All other powers, fall to the States: as long as they do not interfere with Federal Law under those 16 powers, nor violate, Gods Law.

That is why you can have universal healthcare in Massachusetts... Go For It!


State universal healthcare - Legal

Federal universal healthcare - Illegal.


Federal Drug Laws... Illegal!!!!!!!

State Drug Laws.... Legal.

68% of Alaska consists of "Dry Counties". Localities that have passed laws against alcohol (learned from Alaska State Troopers, not Sarah Palin. )

The idea is... that you can vote with your feet. If a local community (where the Founders wanted Power to reside, with the people, locally) wants to ban alcohol... they can.

If you want to drink. MOVE! Vote with your feet.

It is the idea that if one state is being run by Idiots, (California) you can leave.

If you are a business owner, and the state you are in increases taxes 70%, you can leave.


But if the Federal government raises business taxes 70%... YOU... ARE... SCREWED!

It is the fear of central power. Power corrupts... Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


NO... nowhere in the constitution, does it specifically say that you have the right to drink alcohol.

However, the Federal government can not ban it... without Amending the constitution, as they did.

However, if you own your body... than you can do anything with it or put anything in it you please.

And in the process of repealing an Amendment... it is crossed out, never erased, to remind us of the scars of the past.


The Founders knew the American people were good people at heart, and that they would make mistakes, but they would eventually get it right. With the amendment process things can be changed, legally, if they are needed to be changed as times change.

THEY DID NOT... want the constitution to be reinterpreted, nor develop precedents off those reinterpretations. Using the commerce clause for healthcare, is manipulation of the constitution.

The commerce clause exists so the Federal Government can protect states, under the law, in dealing with each other.

During the days of the Articles of Confederation... states WERE cheating other states. It was a mess!


To regulate commerce between states...means to uphold the law.

Regulate, to our Founders... meant, to maintain regularity... under the law... to maintain the law.


The government exists to protect God given rights.

Justice, under the law... is an unalienable right.


And if anyone disagrees with the definition of, Regulate... as I stated. Please, tell me what the second definition of Happiness is, as i spoke about previously.

Nancy Pelosi.... is a liar.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3980210;search_string=pursuit%20of%20happiness;#3980210

[Tink1717 2]

What kind of cheese do you want to go with that whine?

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[RonD1120 58]

Excellent work!

I appreciate your efforts and your explanatory contribution to SC.

You will only be opposed or denigrated by those who fear the truth of what you stated. I wonder who that will be?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[dmcoco84 4]

And for comparison: When I first asked the question.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3980107;search_string=Simple%20questions...%20;#3980107

Quote

>Bill, since you feel you know conservatives and the tea party, so well...

I know some conservatives well. I don't know any tea partyers.

>When a person says that they desire small government... sometimes
>said, small and limited government, what do they mean?

Depends on the person. Saying someone is conservative does not guarantee any views. But in _general_:

When liberals say that, they generally want fewer wars.
When conservatives say that, they generally want less welfare.
When libertarians say that, in general they want smaller government overall.

Bill, Quade... your thoughts?

[jgoose71 0]

I've stated in past posts that if you want to know what the founding fathers intentions were when they wrote the Constitution, just go back to some of there writings.

The typical liberal response has been, "So you want to run things the way they did? You want to bring back slavery too?"

Race card in two sentences.

You have a well thought out post that makes a lot of sense with good arguments. To bad even after Obama's plea for civil debate after the Arizona shooting fell on deaf ears. The left feels they have waivers granted for that also.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[freethefly 6]

Quote

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.

I interpret the use of the word "their" as ones personal belief, not the belief of the government. Had they used the word "the", I would interpret that to indicate that the government was pushing the agenda of the church.
The Founding Fathers wished to keep the church out of governing the people. Thomas Jefferson was not even a Christian, but a Deist. The same with Washington and others. One merely needs to read through the personal papers of the FF to get a grasp on their views on Christianity and the church. This country was not founded on Christian values, but on the concept that one is free to believe as one wishes to do so.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

I do, however agree with much of what you wrote.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Your post makes me sad. Once again I am excluded by the theists. Why should I vote Conservative when my atheism precludes me from even appreciating the concept of limited government? Can I be a Liberal or do I have to just admit reality and join the Marxist-Lennonists right away?

[jgoose71 0]

Quote

Your post makes me sad. Once again I am excluded by the theists. Why should I vote Conservative when my atheism precludes me from even appreciating the concept of limited government? Can I be a Liberal or do I have to just admit reality and join the Marxist-Lennonists right away?

This is what I am talking about right here.

To understand the Constitution you have to know the thought process and how it came to be.

In this statement you are trying to polarize the issue into black or white. With us or against us. Since I don't believe in god I the Constitution sucks.

At least you didn't play the race card.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[airdvr 197]

Excellent read. I believe the Civil War was the beginning fo the change to a Federal Government that was all powerful.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[winsor 185]

Quote

What kind of cheese do you want to go with that whine?

Do you dispute any specifics, or do you limit your response to abuse?

[dmcoco84 4]

Quote

The typical liberal response has been, "So you want to run things the way they did? You want to bring back slavery too?"

And when I define: The Pursuit of Happiness... that argument will be destroyed, as well.

Before he read the Constitution, he criticized it. After he sat down, and actually read the DOI and the Constitution... Frederick Douglas called it, an Anti-Slavery Document.

Y'all ain't seen nothin' yet!

[dmcoco84 4]

Quote

Excellent read. I believe the Civil War was the beginning fo the change to a Federal Government that was all powerful.

Yes and No.

It was more so Andrew Jackson and Manifest Destiny... it was when our Founders began to die off that the country began to go bad.

Manifest Destiny is a perversion of Divine Providence.

Back to the DOI:
"With a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor."

[quade 3]

Quote

What philosophy produced... American Exceptionalism?

45 Simple Words:

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men.

That... is the core, of American Exceptionalism.

No. You're just flat out wrong with your very first assumption.

What it's saying is not that America is "exceptional", but that the English colonies no longer wish to be ruled by King George.

How the hell do you get that a country is "special" from reading the words, "all men are created equal"?

The term "American Exceptionalism" was coined and first used in the 1920s by . . . Communists.
http://books.google.com/books?id=mLJbT3NMbN4C&pg=PA7#v=onepage&q&f=false

Nice try at rewriting history though.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 1,620]

Exceptionalism?

Why do Americans have such a hard time remembering that all this followed from the English Bill of Rights (1689) accompanied by the Magna Carta (1215), and the Habeas Corpus Act of 1679 - all in England.

Must be the brainwashing Americans receive in grade schools.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Your post makes me sad. Once again I am excluded by the theists. Why should I vote Conservative when my atheism precludes me from even appreciating the concept of limited government? Can I be a Liberal or do I have to just admit reality and join the Marxist-Lennonists right away?

You will now be known as "sensitive Andrew".

Instead of getting turned off by the linkage of god to "Individualism" (where Individualism is the foundation of limited federal government) just skip the God part and start with the Individualism point. It still all applies. You can't be surprised by people from the 1600 and 1700's being a bit god-centric.

I like the point that allowing states rights allows us the ability to move from state to state to decide what structure is right for us. When the feds get involved, we lose that ability to move freely within the nation. The US should be a buffet of concepts practiced by the states. And whichever states are most successful in idealology, they succeed and all the states evolve from their example. THe only thing the feds had to really forbid the states was a state could not close its borders (in essence, become a separate nation) so that free movement was allowed - everybody could today pick from 50 different political environments if they like.

Instead, the fed bullies every state to follow the same model - and thus choice/freedom is stifled and collectivism is forced.

If that's the case, then the US has already failed, though. Taking from one state to support another state crushes the evolution of the best models.

edit: and sensitive jgoose - the key point is individualism (actually states rights) vs collectivism and free ability to choose the model you like.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[dmcoco84 4]

Quote

I do, however agree with much of what you wrote.

Good... good.

It will be easy then, for you to accept that what you wrote is very, VERY... incorrect.

Quote

One merely needs to read through the personal papers of the FF to get a grasp on their views on Christianity and the church.

Which is clearly something you have not done... not insulting you, just stating the facts.

I read the first paragraph on your posted website... I stopped after that.

Quote

They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.

Do you know where the Declaration of Independence came from? That alone destroys that argument...

It wasn't... as Quade said:

"a rather hastily put together document with no legal basis other than saying "FU King George. We don't accept that God gave you the right to be in charge of us." Of course, I'm paraphrasing."

He too... is very, VERY... incorrect.

Original Sources are much better to reference.

[quade 3]

Quote

Exceptionalism?

Why do Americans have such a hard time remembering that all this followed from the English Bill of Rights (1689) accompanied by the Magna Carta (1215), and the Habeas Corpus Act of 1679 - all in England.

Must be the brainwashing Americans receive in grade schools.

No. It's the brainwashing they receive by those that would rewrite history to suit their own purposes.

For instance, Beck does this almost on a nightly basis.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[dmcoco84 4]

Seriously, Quade! SERIOUSLY!

Take down the Rattle Snake... NOW. It is flat out disgusting, and disrespectful to Benjamin Franklin.

[dmcoco84 4]

Quade... what two documents were used to write the DOI?

If you answer correctly... you destroy your own argument.

If you don't know... its OK... but it even further shows, how ignorant to the truth you are.

AND, further supports my point... that you need to take down the rattle snake.

[dmcoco84 4]

BTW... the Constitution doesn't NEED to have the word God, nor Creator in it.

Because the only reason we have the Constitution... the only reason we have government... is to protect God given rights.

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men.

Its a self evident truth... its Common Sense.

[kallend 1,620]

Quote

what two documents were used to write the DOI?

There was a "Rough Draft" text of the Declaration as Jefferson probably presented it to Benjamin Franklin and John Adams, for correction, prior to committee. The committee then prepared its own draft. That's two, right?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[dmcoco84 4]

Quote

Exceptionalism

Yup!

Quote

Why do Americans have such a hard time remembering that all this followed from the English Bill of Rights (1689) accompanied by the Magna Carta (1215), and the Habeas Corpus Act of 1679 - all in England.

Ah... but were do you think the English Bill of Rights came from? What was it influenced by?

Why do you have a hard time understanding that English rights can be taken away... because those rights come from men/government.

God given rights can't be taken away, they are inalienable... however, they CAN be violated. Especially when, We The People, don't know our rights or history. Nice to see the Patriot Act expire!

The Magna Carta is just a piece of paper the king was forced to sign...

[dmcoco84 4]

Sorry... Incorrect.

The same two documents that influenced the DOI... influenced the English Bill of Rights.

Except, the English left out the important part... GOD.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

Quote

Your post makes me sad. Once again I am excluded by the theists. Why should I vote Conservative when my atheism precludes me from even appreciating the concept of limited government? Can I be a Liberal or do I have to just admit reality and join the Marxist-Lennonists right away?

This is what I am talking about right here.

To understand the Constitution you have to know the thought process and how it came to be.

In this statement you are trying to polarize the issue into black or white. With us or against us. Since I don't believe in god I the Constitution sucks.

At least you didn't play the race card.

Wow. That's quite a distance to miss the point by, dude!

If you carefully re-read the post, you might just notice that Andrew was criticising not the constitution, but Dmcoco's black and white, with us or against us, God-centric reading of it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[quade 3]

Quote

Seriously, Quade! SERIOUSLY!

Take down the Rattle Snake... NOW. It is flat out disgusting, and disrespectful to Benjamin Franklin.

Attempting to limit a people's freedom of expression?

Typical.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver