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tkhayes

more guns less crime

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Yep. There are cases where having a weapon helps and cases where it doesn't. For every one you post, someone will have an example that is equal...like the little old lady in the wheelchair that the punk tried to rob. Either way, I want to have the right to own a weapon, if I choose, to protect myself and my family. So far, I've chosen not to because I don't know the first thing about guns.

linz
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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

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Can you say for certain that the fact that the police returned fire and killed the shooter did not lessen the severity? Depending on how much ammo the guy had adn how motivated the nut was-the presence of guns may have stopped several more crimes from being committed.
You are only as strong as the prey you devour

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http://www.whtc.com/news/articles/2011/jan/24/detroit-police-station-shooting/

One case where more guns did nothing to lessen the crime from happening.



Didn't stop the crime. Probably cut it short.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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http://www.whtc.com/news/articles/2011/jan/24/detroit-police-station-shooting/

One case where more guns did nothing to lessen the crime from happening.



One has to wonder what would have happened had this been a staition where officers checked their guns when they entered
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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One has to wonder what would have happened had this been a staition where officers checked their guns when they entered



OR, they exercised extreme restraint in a CQB situation in order to ensure they hit their target and did not inflict more casualties on their fellow police officers in a cross-fire.

TK: Ya know, one has to look past the target to see what they might hit on the other side.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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One case where more guns did nothing to lessen the crime from happening.



Quote: "Officers returned fire killing the suspect."

I'd call that reducing the seriousness of the impact. Compare that to a school shooting where no one is allowed to have a gun to shoot back. Or the recent Tuscon shooting at a supermarket. Compare the casualty lists.

And obviously, this guy was on a suicide mission and fully expected to die in his attack. Someone like that won't be deterred by the mere thought of return gunfire - in fact, he would have expected it, and welcomed it.

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http://www.whtc.com/news/articles/2011/jan/24/detroit-police-station-shooting/

One case where more guns did nothing to lessen the crime from happening.



Here is a case where, just like the above mentioned article, Guns DID make a difference. They kept the perp from shooting anyone else.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Forget where I found it. But not too long ago I saw a video of a woman testifying before congress about a shooting someplace that she was at. She normally carries a hand gun but left it home because where she was going it would not be permitted. A nut started shooting at the indoor crowd, she said of watching him kill several people including her father, she could have easily taken him out from her protected position. She was basically lambasting them for their gun control laws. Very emotional to watch. I'm sure if googled it could be found.
Found it. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7a3_1206074739

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that wasn't the right one, there must be a longer version, cause i remember her saying how if only she was armed.



They probably edited that out.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Forget where I found it. But not too long ago I saw a video of a woman testifying before congress about a shooting someplace that she was at. She normally carries a hand gun but left it home because where she was going it would not be permitted. A nut started shooting at the indoor crowd, she said of watching him kill several people including her father, she could have easily taken him out from her protected position. She was basically lambasting them for their gun control laws. Very emotional to watch. I'm sure if googled it could be found.
Found it. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7a3_1206074739



I think that was the mass shooting at Lubby's (Libby's? Not sure) Cafeteria in Texas many years ago. She was not the only one who lamented not having their usual compliment of defensive armament that day. There were a few in the restaurant who later admitted they had left weapons in their car.

Edit: Wikipedia says it was Kileen TX 1991 and "Responding to the massacre,[4] in 1995 the Texas Legislature passed a shall-issue gun law, which requires that all qualifying applicants be issued a Concealed Handgun License (the state's required permit to carry concealed weapons), removing the personal discretion of the issuing authority to deny such licenses. The law had been campaigned for by Suzanna Hupp, who was present at the Luby's massacre where both of her parents were shot and killed. Hupp later expressed regret for obeying the law by leaving her firearm in her car rather than keeping it on her person in an establishment that served alcohol.[5] Hupp testified across the country in support of concealed-handgun laws, and was elected to the Texas House of Representatives in 1996.[6] The law was signed by then-Governor George W. Bush.[7]"
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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Forget where I found it. But not too long ago I saw a video of a woman testifying before congress about a shooting someplace that she was at. She normally carries a hand gun but left it home because where she was going it would not be permitted. A nut started shooting at the indoor crowd, she said of watching him kill several people including her father, she could have easily taken him out from her protected position. She was basically lambasting them for their gun control laws. Very emotional to watch. I'm sure if googled it could be found.
Found it. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7a3_1206074739



I think that was the mass shooting at Lubby's (Libby's? Not sure) Cafeteria in Texas many years ago. She was not the only one who lamented not having their usual compliment of defensive armament that day. There were a few in the restaurant who later admitted they had left weapons in their car.

Edit: Wikipedia says it was Kileen TX 1991 and "Responding to the massacre,[4] in 1995 the Texas Legislature passed a shall-issue gun law, which requires that all qualifying applicants be issued a Concealed Handgun License (the state's required permit to carry concealed weapons), removing the personal discretion of the issuing authority to deny such licenses. The law had been campaigned for by Suzanna Hupp, who was present at the Luby's massacre where both of her parents were shot and killed. Hupp later expressed regret for obeying the law by leaving her firearm in her car rather than keeping it on her person in an establishment that served alcohol.[5] Hupp testified across the country in support of concealed-handgun laws, and was elected to the Texas House of Representatives in 1996.[6] The law was signed by then-Governor George W. Bush.[7]"



Yep - it was Luby's
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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actually, I disagree with you

more guns did nothing to stop the crime. The claim of just that situation has been made more than once by pretty much everyone who replied to my original post at one time or another.

NO guns would stop gun crime. More guns will only only mean more gun 'events' mostly bad ones, not too many good ones.

the argument that for every 'example I find' there is an opposite 'find' by someone else. rubbish.

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http://www.whtc.com/news/articles/2011/jan/24/detroit-police-station-shooting/

One case where more guns did nothing to lessen the crime from happening.



Yeah, & if that guy had walked into a free-fire zone school/hospital/church/whatever, & opened up. What do you think would have happened then???


this same argument was brought up the other day by some colleagues, i think they equate having guns in a situation akin to nothing being able to happen. all it takes is one look at a situation like this one and compare it to something like VT....where there was nothing to stop it.

it only takes a few seconds to fire a couple rounds from a shotgun, it probably takes the police a few seconds to react to the threat, take aim, and fire. So i think the outcome is totally normal. they reacted and killed the suspect....

good shoot :ph34r:

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actually, I disagree with you

more guns did nothing to stop the crime. The claim of just that situation has been made more than once by pretty much everyone who replied to my original post at one time or another.

NO guns would stop gun crime. More guns will only only mean more gun 'events' mostly bad ones, not too many good ones.



How did that work out for the airport in Moscow today?

Only a moron worries about "gun crimes." If you get knifed or blown up, you're still just as dead.

So sure, you're right. Cops having guns didn't prevent this guy from committing a gun crime - attempted murder. But if the cops didn't have guns, then the guy would have committed murder as well. So those guns stopped many more criminal acts from occurring.

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actually, I disagree with you

more guns did nothing to stop the crime. The claim of just that situation has been made more than once by pretty much everyone who replied to my original post at one time or another.

NO guns would stop gun crime. More guns will only only mean more gun 'events' mostly bad ones, not too many good ones.



Now you're playing word games by focusing on the idea that the presence of guns doesn't prevent madmen from shooting. It may be true that the guns in that police station didn't stop this someone from entering with a shotgun and opening fire, but nothing can do that. However, the armed cops inside DID prevent the shooting spree from being far worse than it otherwise would have been had they all been unarmed.

Furthermore, the fact that police stations are full of armed cops probably serves as quite a deterrent to criminals looking for revenge, and dissuades some of the more radical ones from even trying to shoot up a police station, because they know it would result in instant death. Only a suicidal gunman would attempt such a thing, and nothing will stop a suicidal criminal from starting an attack.

But armed good guys will stop such an attack once it's started. And that's far preferable to just allowing an armed madman to continue wreaking havoc unchecked.

But then, I suppose you prefer your home country of Canada, where a homeowner gets arrested for firing warning shots towards arsonists who are trying to burn down his home.

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actually, I disagree with you

more guns did nothing to stop the crime. The claim of just that situation has been made more than once by pretty much everyone who replied to my original post at one time or another.



Really? Looks like the cops' guns stopped that one to any rational observer.

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NO guns would stop gun crime. More guns will only only mean more gun 'events' mostly bad ones, not too many good ones.



Weapons are used in some 25% of violent crimes, if I recall the FBI/DOJ stats. Studies estimate defensive uses in the hundreds of thousands and up, yearly.

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the argument that for every 'example I find' there is an opposite 'find' by someone else. rubbish.



Rubbish, indeed.

How well are the laws doing at keeping drugs out of the country?Claiming that crime will stop, if you wave your magical wand and sprinkle the 'no guns' fairy dust everywhere is, as illustrated, a fantasy.

Contrary to idiotic liberal belief, the presence of a gun doesn't cause a crime - that still takes a (gasp) CRIMINAL.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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http://www.whtc.com/news/articles/2011/jan/24/detroit-police-station-shooting/

One case where more guns did nothing to lessen the crime from happening.



Aren't you a gun owner? I thought I read a post where you mentioned firing weapons at SDC after or in lieu of jumping.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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