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freefalle

does your state allow the open carry of firearms?

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Complete strangers. Keep in mind that I am a former police officer, I was an attorney (dressed like one) at the time, and have been military in reserve component and active for a long time. I carry myself like a respectable individual.

I had people recognize me in other venues who would ask if I had my gun and let me know that they supported such conduct. Again, it was probably connected to my appearance. If I looked like a thug, they would probably have a different view.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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well, the law already reads that way.

intentional failure to conceal is an offense. intentional failure to conceal means intentional exposure. the point comes down to the classic "you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride". Face it, in the field, it's always officer's discretion.



That's the point I was making, yes.

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yeah, they might change it to read "unintentional failure to conceal is not an offense", but that's not how laws are written. They define offenses. Not every possible non-offense case. That's what case law is.



Not so - for example:

"It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(5) that the
actor possessed a firearm or club while traveling to or from the actor's
place of assignment or in the actual discharge of duties as:"

"It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(5) that the
actor checked all firearms as baggage in accordance with federal or
state law or regulations before entering a secured area."

So, putting in:

(a)(8)(a)"It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(8) if the display of the weapon or firearm was accidental or not made in a manner calculated to alarm"

would be consistent with other positive defense statements within the law.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Complete strangers. Keep in mind that I am a former police officer, I was an attorney (dressed like one) at the time, and have been military in reserve component and active for a long time. I carry myself like a respectable individual.

I had people recognize me in other venues who would ask if I had my gun and let me know that they supported such conduct. Again, it was probably connected to my appearance. If I looked like a thug, they would probably have a different view.



+1

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I am sure you mean loaded open carry. In California, you can open carry but it must be unloaded, and you better be prepared for some shit too hahaha.



But you're allowed to have full mags right next to the firearm. 2 seconds to chamber. I don't see what's the difference having it loaded or not. I will never open carry, it always seems when people do in CA its negative publicity. Who needs encouragement for more gun restrictions. Forget about conceal carry in California too, it will never happen.

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2 seconds to chamber.



While it's better than harsh words, 2 seconds can easily be the difference between life and death.

Tueller Drill:

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The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m). So he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"


Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Very true about the 2 seconds between life and death via a firearm. I always carry my Hinderer XM-18 (Im a custom knife junkie). Through martial arts training I was taught how to fight with a knife (karambit), and that a knife is more effective than a gun in a close combat situation (robbery, being jumped, ect.). You just have to keep the fight box to the size of fighting in a phone booth to beat the gun, the same with fighting with your fists, most people can't and don't fight like that. I would always prefer to carry my knives over my firearms anyday. I enjoy the confidence it gives me if I ever had to use it. Being deceiving in a situation will prove to be favorable to you in a fight. Having an exposed firearm you aren't deceiving at all. Sorry to get off topic.

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Very true about the 2 seconds between life and death via a firearm. I always carry my Hinderer XM-18 (Im a custom knife junkie). Through martial arts training I was taught how to fight with a knife (karambit), and that a knife is more effective than a gun in a close combat situation (robbery, being jumped, ect.). You just have to keep the fight box to the size of fighting in a phone booth to beat the gun, the same with fighting with your fists, most people can't and don't fight like that. I would always prefer to carry my knives over my firearms anyday. I enjoy the confidence it gives me if I ever had to use it. Being deceiving in a situation will prove to be favorable to you in a fight. Having an exposed firearm you aren't deceiving at all. Sorry to get off topic.



The point is not to get in the fight in the first place, if possible. You *have* to get close to use a contact/edged weapon - a knife has an advantage over a gun to a point to a point, but a gun doesn't become useless at contact range, either.

Thanks for the discussion!
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Very true about the 2 seconds between life and death via a firearm. I always carry my Hinderer XM-18 (Im a custom knife junkie). Through martial arts training I was taught how to fight with a knife (karambit), and that a knife is more effective than a gun in a close combat situation (robbery, being jumped, ect.). You just have to keep the fight box to the size of fighting in a phone booth to beat the gun, the same with fighting with your fists, most people can't and don't fight like that. I would always prefer to carry my knives over my firearms anyday. I enjoy the confidence it gives me if I ever had to use it. Being deceiving in a situation will prove to be favorable to you in a fight. Having an exposed firearm you aren't deceiving at all. Sorry to get off topic.



Law enforcement are very aware of what could happen if someone is allowed too close to them. Their weapon might even be taken away,( if a perp is allowed too close). That is why, if a bad guy keeps advancing)....they will often be fired upon. They are warned to stop, if they won't, they could get a bullet in the vitals....

I saw some footage once, of a guy who was shouting at a police officer. The policeman shouted back, at the top of his lungs, telling the guy to "STOP".

The other guy was unarmed, but he kept walking toward the police officer....He was shot and killed. The policeman was never prosecuted. He did as he was trained...

A knife may be good in close, but would be worthless further out. I'd rather have a gun...

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Carrying both is a good compromise. And who says I'm not open-minded? B|

(good training trumps both, but training with both and empty handed trumps all)
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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here in Az one can openly carry any weapon gun, knife and recently we did away with cwp's, so you can carry concealed or on your hip just about any place you want to.
light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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I am not a fan of open carry; just tells the bad guys who to aim at first....



Or who to avoid entirely. Not many cops get mugged.

While I would not open carry often, I am FOR any progun right.



There are bad guys out there who practice how to disarm a police officer. Carrying open is completely pointless, and only serves to put a target on your back. If you carry open, you are giving up your biggest advantage, which is the element of surprise. Plus, open carry really tends to freak the general public out.
BASE 1384

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I am not a fan of open carry; just tells the bad guys who to aim at first....



Or who to avoid entirely. Not many cops get mugged.

While I would not open carry often, I am FOR any progun right.



There are bad guys out there who practice how to disarm a police officer. Carrying open is completely pointless, and only serves to put a target on your back. If you carry open, you are giving up your biggest advantage, which is the element of surprise. Plus, open carry really tends to freak the general public out.



Odd - I know folks living in OC states, and the only people they report getting freaked out are the recent transplants from places like Cali.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Carrying open is completely pointless



Pure opinion. If that were true, then why don't all cops carry hidden? It is MUCH faster to draw from an open position than from cover... So there is one point right there.

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only serves to put a target on your back



Or tell the criminal to stay away. Not many cops get mugged. Criminals prey on the weak, not the armed... there is another point.

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Plus, open carry really tends to freak the general public out



Big deal. Skydiving scares people... Should we stop? People think base is dangerous... Should we ban it?

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Carrying open is completely pointless



Pure opinion. If that were true, then why don't all cops carry hidden? It is MUCH faster to draw from an open position than from cover... So there is one point right there.

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only serves to put a target on your back



Or tell the criminal to stay away. Not many cops get mugged. Criminals prey on the weak, not the armed... there is another point.

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Plus, open carry really tends to freak the general public out



Big deal. Skydiving scares people... Should we stop? People think base is dangerous... Should we ban it?



-Of course it is opinion, much like most of this website.:P

-Cops dont have the luxury of carrying concealed, so that is not a very good example of what citizens should do. Police HAVE to be seen as out and in force. They may not get mugged very often, but they are attacked a lot. A lot of bad guys really hate cops for some reason.

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It is MUCH faster to draw from an open position than from cover... So there is one point right there.


-Exactly. A bad guy can disarm you much easier from an open position than from cover. Cops train for this. Do you? Bad guys can't take your gun if they don't know you have one!

-Guess what.....most of BASE happens at night because if done in the day it would cause such a public stir that we would burn down our objects. The less the general public see about stuff that is "out of the ordinary" the better.

Also worth noting I am not saying you should NEVER open carry, nor suggesting anyone lose the right to if they choose. If you are out in the country it should be no problem. However if you feel the need to carry a gun on your hip while you go to taco bell, seems to me like your trying to be John Wayne.
BASE 1384

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I am not a fan of open carry; just tells the bad guys who to aim at first....



Or who to avoid entirely. Not many cops get mugged.

While I would not open carry often, I am FOR any progun right.



There are bad guys out there who practice how to disarm a police officer. Carrying open is completely pointless, and only serves to put a target on your back. If you carry open, you are giving up your biggest advantage, which is the element of surprise. Plus, open carry really tends to freak the general public out.



Odd - I know folks living in OC states, and the only people they report getting freaked out are the recent transplants from places like Cali.



The cops and instructors at my CCW class had a LOT of stories of people getting in a panic because of OC. The majority of the population is pretty ignorant about guns, therefore are going to be uneasy when someone is carrying one who isnt a cop. Just the way it is.
BASE 1384

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-Cops dont have the luxury of carrying concealed



Sure they do... when they are off duty.

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so that is not a very good example of what citizens should do



The ability to bring a weapon into play is ALWAYS a good example. You may not LIKE it, but that does not negate it.

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They may not get mugged very often, but they are attacked a lot.



Source? Data to back up that claim? Do you think more openly carrying cops, or apparently unarmed people get mugged?

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Exactly. A bad guy can disarm you much easier from an open position than from cover.



And you can draw on the BG faster than from cover.

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Cops train for this. Do you?



Yes, do you train fighting hand to hand while trying to get your gun out from cover?

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Guess what.....most of BASE happens at night because if done in the day it would cause such a public stir that we would burn down our objects. The less the general public see about stuff that is "out of the ordinary" the better



Guess what... BASE is illegal, carrying a gun openly (where allowed) is not. So there is no "burning" of objects when it is legal.

Bridge day is not at night. Hell, I have lots of videos of daytime base jumps where they are legal.

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However if you feel the need to carry a gun on your hip while you go to taco bell, seems to me like your trying to be John Wayne.



Or, it is hot and you don't want to wear a cover.
Or, you realize that a visual deterrent works (cops do not get mugged).
Or you realize that it is faster bring a weapon from open than from cover.

You trying to characterize anyone that does not agree with YOUR views only as a wannabe "John Wayne" is EXACTLY like the antis claiming anyone that wants to carry a gun at all is a wannabe "Dirty Harry"... Illogical and purely based on emotion.

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OPEN CARRY VS. CONCEALED CARRY
Revision 1.24
Written By: Garry E. Harvey
Contributing Editors: OpenCarry.org Members

The purpose of this essay is to examine the two competing points of view within the handgun carry community and consider each one for its merits, both good and bad, from a common sense and logical point of view.
INTRODUCTION
"AN ARMED SOCIETY IS A POLITE SOCIETY"
Weapons and firearms in particular have been personified by many in recent decades as being evil and able to impart that evil into anyone who chooses to wield the weapon. In the anti-gun community, the only ones who appear to be immune from the gun's evil are those acting under the authority of government. It has been engrained into the minds of millions that ordinary citizens cannot and should not be trusted with the ability to use firearms for protection much less carry them into the public. Anyone who advocates such action is labeled evil, dangerous, or a vigilante. This line of thinking appears to be slowing eroding away as evidenced by the fall of the once prominent and powerful anti-gun lobby. The number of people choosing to carry a weapon for self protection has been growing steadily since the first laws were enacted. The cry of anarchy and blood running in the streets by the anti-gun lobby has proven false. As this has become more and more apparent, no thinks to the main stream media, the average citizen is beginning to change their minds over the issue. Criminals in an armed society know that their actions may garner them instant peril of death should they choose the wrong victim. That old saying still proves to be as true as it ever was, "An armed society is a polite society."
Carrying a pistol has been a part of my daily routine for going on four years. During that time I've taken almost every opportunity to speak with people from each end of the spectrum regarding the issue. Before I ever received my permit I remember part of a conversation I had with a party advocate for the Al Gore campaign in early 2000. Among the issues I posed to her during our conversation was that of Mr. Gore's support of gun control measures. She scoffed at me and snobbishly remarked that we didn't live in the Wild West. At the time I was not as well versed in the issue as I am now and really had no response although with her status I would have had more luck convincing a fence post otherwise. Over the next seven years I made it a point to broach the topic every chance I had with whomever I thought might have an interesting opinion on the matter. I researched the writing of the founding fathers and their predecessors with fervor. I studied the history of gun-control in America from the civil war forward, the rise of anti-gun organizations and those pro-gun organizations who rose in opposition to defend the Constitution. Having made my decision as to which side I was on I was surprised at the sometimes hateful opposition to carrying a firearm openly by members of the pro-gun rights community. It is for this reason I have undertaken to write this for everyone within that community. Before I delve into specifics let me state firstly that how one chooses to carry their weapon is their own choice and should not be subjected to harassment from others who disagree with that choice. My purpose is not to hold one method above the other but rather detail the benefits of both and leave it to the reader to decide for his or herself which they prefer.

CONCEALED CARRY
THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE
The most prominent reason given by proponents of carrying concealed is the element of surprise. There are many hypothetical situations which have been posed to prove this point but they all boil down to the CRIMINAL not being aware of the ARMED CITIZEN as anymore of a threat than the UNARMED CITIZEN. The result is that the ARMED CITIZEN may reserve the option to use deadly force until the situation is favorable or not, should the threat cease.
What are the negatives associated with this logic and why is it not perfect in all situations? Well, one must first assume they will not be the sole primary target but rather a third party or in a group setting. The element of surprise is quickly rendered null once you are at knife or gunpoint with nothing to distract your attacker. Assuming the attacker becomes distracted sufficiently enough to attempt a weapon draw the victim must consider the risk and added time needed to draw from a concealed location. If all factors are not in the victim’s favor then the attacker is likely to win as his weapon was already in the ready position.
Another reason given for favoring concealed carry is the fear or perceived risk of the weapon being taken by the CRIMINAL. In one of two versions the CRIMINAL takes the weapon after it has been drawn from the holster and pointed at him. This is commonly shown in movies where the CRIMINAL takes the gun as the ARMED CITIZEN is too afraid to shoot. Unless the attacker is suicidal or the firearm is incapable of firing for some reason, expect to see this situation stay in the movies. The second of the two concerns the CRIMINAL successfully taking the weapon from the holster before the ARMED CITIZEN can react. This has happened to police officers and so it could happen to the ARMED CITIZEN as well but consider this following difference. In all but a minority of cases, the CRIMINAL took the officer's weapon once being confronted by the officer or while being placed under arrest. The act was one of desperation as the reward of escape outweighed the risk of taking the weapon from the officer. Assuming the weapon is properly holstered in a professional manner, the ARMED CITIZEN would only pose a threat to the CRIMINAL within a self-defense situation; the risk to the CRIMINAL would be overwhelming in attempting to steal the weapon as this act would trigger the self defense reaction from the ARMED CITIZEN.
Another less logical reason for not carrying openly is that one does not want to appear to be "looking for trouble." This line of thought seems to have evolved from the anti-gun accusation that everyone who carries a weapon is looking for a fight. The illogical hypothetical given for example tends to go as follows. The CRIMINAL sees the ARMED CITIZEN carrying a weapon and for no logical reason chooses to confront the ARMED CITIZEN and instigate a fight which inevitably ends with the CRIMINAL winning. Upon close scrutiny the reason and the hypothetical posed do not match up. First, why would the CRIMINAL want to fight an armed opponent for no reason? The CRIMINAL would have to lack any kind of judgment, have no fear of death and believe he is the fastest shooter on earth, not to mention invincible to bullets. Finally, how exactly is the ARMED CITIZEN the one "looking for trouble" when the CRIMINAL prompted the confrontation? Was it not the CRIMINAL "looking for trouble" by targeting the ARMED CITIZEN and pushing him into a self defense situation? This line of thinking is similar to accusing a rape victim of wanting to be raped because she was supposedly dressed provocatively.
Although there are other reasons I've been given for carrying concealed, the ones discussed have been some of the most prevalent; of the three only two hold some historical basis for concern but the last one falls apart upon a logical evaluation. The real reason for concealment has less to do with a tactical advantage, I think, and more to do with a social advantage. If the ARMED CITIZEN thinks he would be better served in a temporary social environment to have his weapon concealed then by all means do so. An example might be that you're shopping at a local mall owned and operated by big city politically correct hacks that are obviously anti-gun. If you know they'll ask you to leave their property should they become aware of you exercising your rights, it would be understandable to conceal it from their view; that is if you have to shop there. Maybe you're going to church and you don't want to draw attention from the preacher and his sermon. Bottom line, you should conceal when you think it is reasonable and serves a nobler purpose, not because someone pressured you.

THE CASE FOR OPEN CARRY
BEWARE OF DOG/GUN
A sign, be it text, picture, or symbol, is something visual which communicates a clear message to the observer. The observer can choose to disregard the sign but nonetheless they are forced to consider the message before proceeding. Examples of signs conveying an important message would be "BEWARE OF DOG", "NO SMOKING", "EMERGENCY EXIT", or the more ominous "DEADLY FORCE AUTHORIZED". Each sign aids the observer in any potential decision making. Of course, the observer may choose to ignore the warning but this choice will be made based on whether the potential reward outweighs the risk.
The case for open carry is simple. I would submit that in much the same way that a sign works, when the ARMED CITIZEN carries his weapon in the open it communicates a clear message to any observer. To an observer who has no intention of causing harm or using illegal force the sign should be meaningless. However, when the CRIMINAL observes this same sign he must reconsider whether the potential reward outweighs the risk. Where the risk was simply being caught or having to physically overpower the UNARMED CITIZEN it now suddenly rises to potentially enduring great pain and death when confronting the ARMED CITIZEN. Do insane or even desperate CRIMINALS exist who would disregard such an obvious sign and follow through with an attack? As with any possibility the answer is YES but even though they exist their actions do not support the opposing view that open carry should be avoided. They can still be potentially stopped by the ARMED CITIZEN once he becomes aware of the CRIMINALS intent to present a lethal threat.
With regard to the element of surprise discussed earlier, open carry actually supersedes the need for surprise. If carrying openly causes the CRIMINAL to avoid you and those around you as his victims then the need for surprise is negated. Your display of an ability to employ deadly force has avoided the confrontation before it even began, avoided the threat to your life and having to actually use your weapon. As the CRIMINAL moves on to easier prey you will likely never be aware it even happened.

CONCLUSION
THE REAL PROBLEM WITH OPEN CARRY
What is the real reason some shy from open carry? I believe it to be fear; the anxiety of having to confront someone hostile to their choice to carry a weapon for personal defense. As a pro-carry activist I welcome it but I can understand where a large section of armed citizens do not. Are there times when it is expedient to conceal your sidearm, definitely! Should you feel ashamed to carry it openly, NO! Hundreds of thousands of people have fought state after state to pass legislation to restore that right which was once only granted at the behest of local law enforcement.
Anti-gun hacks claim to have a right to "feel safe." This non-existent right has been twisted from the right to "be secure in one's person and effects" a right I exercise whenever I carry my weapon. The anti-gun crowd has the twisted perception that the weapon and not the criminal is the threat. They will and have called the police to harass the ARMED CITIZEN; I advise you show your permit and carry on. They may card you as many times as they wish as I long as you know you are legal nothing they do should stop you from carrying openly.
We, the pro-carry citizens, have to stop criticizing each other. We have to stop playing footsy with the politically correct crowd and stick together. Public opinion can be swayed in our favor if we as law abiding citizens can show through open carry that we are safe, caring individuals whose only want is to be able to defend our family and ourselves from needless victimization. Ben Franklin said it best when he explained that "the very fame of our strength and readiness would be a means of discouraging our enemies; for tis a wise and true saying that one sword often keeps the other in the scabbard. The way to secure peace is to be prepared for war. Those who are on the guard and appear ready to receive their adversaries are in much less danger of attack than the secure, the supine, and the negligent."

2007, Garry Harvey. This essay may be reproduced with the condition that it be kept in its entirety and cited accordingly.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2218&d=1201136553

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Interesting essay, for which I can agree with.

My previous post is my personal choice (concealed). I agree if you dress the part and look responsible, then you probably get less 'attention' than others. But there are some that open carry I am rightfully cautious about.

Being retired military, I'm pretty cautious about gun safety; I don't hand a gun to someone I don't clear first, and even if I see then clear it, I clear it again once it's in my possession. I know others that are not gun safe, and I don't assume anyone is.

We had a customer come into work one day to make a purchase; poorly dressed, unkempt and did not make me comfortable that he was carrying. I politely asked him if he was law enforcement, when he said no I asked him to take his gun back out into his truck, as he was on private property. He incredulously asked "but don't you feel safer that I've got a gun?" I said, "not really, since I don't know you or how you were trained, and the only person I want to see a gun on in this building is ME".
Keith Abner
D-17590

"Those who do, can't explain; those who don't, can't understand"

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