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jclalor

Arizona Congresswoman, shot in the head

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It's exactly what DFWAJG was saying.



Suck-up. ;) (It's OK; I've got the t-shirt)

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There's no way any mental health professional can predict who will blow and how they will blow. And people with no history can blow it.

What's the difference between evil and insane? And what's a practical example of the problems we have with any system of identification? Marvin Gaye's father. He had an undiagnosed brain tumor that made him blow and shoot his own son with a pistol that Marvin gave him.

Who knew? Who could have predicted it? Nobody. Not even MArvin Gaye's dad.



It's not like Loughner's disturbing and disruptive mental illness was unknown to authorities. There was in fact a known history on him.

Here's an article detailing how college campus police and local police apparently had multiple contacts with Loughner due to his repeated disturbing outbursts and conduct on campus and other people's fears for their safety in his presence. He was eventually suspended from college (the suspension notice was delivered to him by police) with the proviso that he could only return if cleared to do so in writing by a mental health professional certifying he was not a threat. Apparently police even went as far as obtaining a subpoena of YouTube records after Loughner subsequently posted a bizarre video about the college.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12185095

So his looniness and scariness was known, even by police. Yet apparently he was never red-flagged as a risk in the background-check database used to clear him for purchasing a gun. Certainly it's reasonable to ask: Why?

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So his looniness and scariness was known, even by police. Yet apparently he was never red-flagged as a risk in the background-check database used to clear him for purchasing a gun. Certainly it's reasonable to ask: Why?



Because mental health practicioners had not declared him a danger.

Because a judge had not adjudicated him mentally deficient or ordered his admission to a mental institution.

Because his other contacts with the law had not resulted in a felony arrest that would have barred him.

You know...that whole 'following the law' thing.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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So his looniness and scariness was known, even by police. Yet apparently he was never red-flagged as a risk in the background-check database used to clear him for purchasing a gun. Certainly it's reasonable to ask: Why?



Because mental health practicioners had not declared him a danger.

Because a judge had not adjudicated him mentally deficient or ordered his admission to a mental institution.

Because his other contacts with the law had not resulted in a felony arrest that would have barred him.

You know...that whole 'following the law' thing.



Should the law be amended to fill the crack he fell through, i.e., (a) so that the police he had contact with should have reported this to authorities, and (b) once that's done, shifting the burden over to Loughner to get a mental-health clearance to buy a gun?

There is some precedent to this general concept. For (imperfect) example, in many states, if a doctor feels a person is medically impaired from being a safe driver, the doc is required to report it to the DOT, after which the burden then shifts to the driver to prove his medical competency to drive or have his license suspended.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
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It's exactly what DFWAJG was saying.

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Suck-up.



Dern tootin! B|

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So his looniness and scariness was known, even by police. Yet apparently he was never red-flagged as a risk in the background-check database used to clear him for purchasing a gun. Certainly it's reasonable to ask: Why?



Several of the answers are apparently in the article. He was determined to have violated no law. He was found to be "creepy" but that's not against the law. TO deny him a gun would be arbitrary and capricious.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Should the law be amended to fill the crack he fell through, i.e., (a) so that the police he had contact with should have reported this to authorities, and (b) once that's done, shifting the burden over to Loughner to get a mental-health clearance to buy a gun?



A) The problem isn't the law, per se - the law already bans:
Convicted of a federal crime with 1+ year imprisonment
Convicted of a state crime with 2+ year imprisonment
Fugitive from justice
Those addicted to an illegal substance
Those adjudicated mentally defective or committed to a mental institution
Illegal/unlawful aliens, or those admitted under a non-immigrant visa
Those dishonorably discharged from the armed forces
Those who have renounced citizenship
Those under a restraining order for stalking, harassing or threatening another
Those who have been convicted of domestic violence

A-1) I believe the police have to have an actionable offense before they can take someone in who isn't an obvious danger, do they not?

LE folks - care to chime in on that point?

Your (B) certainly sounds like prior restraint, absent evaluation that can, to the best of my knowledge, only be ordered by a court.

The same people who HOWLED that SB1070 was racist and would result in police hassling people for 'driving while brown' are now the ones demanding that the police stop people who "act loony" (absent any legal definition) or are "scary".

Hypocrites.

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There is some precedent to this general concept. For (imperfect) example, in many states, if a doctor feels a person is medically impaired from being a safe driver, the doc is required to report it to the DOT, after which the burden then shifts to the driver to prove his medical competency to drive or have his license suspended.



That's within the doctor's experience and ability to make that determination; unless they're handing out psychiatry degrees when graduating from the police academy, the same doesn't automatically hold true for LE.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Prohibition of firearms to the mentally ill is state specific. In California, If you have been 5150'd for danger to self or danger to others, doctors are required to report your admission. There is more, here it is...
http://mabpro.com/community/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74&Itemid=84



Thanks for the link - those admissions (involuntary ones) can only be done by a judge , correct?

Looks like self-admission results in a ban only while you're under treatment, a 72 hour hold (your '5150') results in a 5 year State ban (I wonder if CA DOJ reports that to Fed.gov for NICS purposes?) and a 14 day hold gets you a Federal lifetime ban, which would, I think, override the state 5 year ban.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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No. Actually, the 5150 order is for a psychiatric evaluation. It can be filled out by a physician, any mental health professional, medics, police officers, and I'm not sure who else. If a physician deems the person DTO, DTS or gravely disabled, the person can be admitted for up to 72 hours. If after 72 hours, the physician determines that the patient is still one of those three, then a 5250 can be filed with the court, allowing a hospitalization of up to 14 days. A representative from the court will come, and an advocate will stand in for the patient. The doctor essentially has to plead the case as to why the patient meets one of those three. The court rep then determines whether or not the person can remain on a hold. If no, then the patient can either sign in voluntarily, or must be discharged. If yes, the patient has to stay, but can also ask to be seen by the judge for a writ of habeus corpus. There is another procedure that can keep the patient in longer than two weeks if necessary, but I just don't recall it any more. It's been almost 10 years since I've had to use it.

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Thanks for the info.

I noted this from the handbook regarding the 5150:

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As described in the Welfare and Institutions Code (WIC) 5151, a 72- hour hold is an application for involuntary admission, not a direct admission form. It gets the individual to the door, then “the professional person in charge of the facility or his or her designee shall assess the individual in person to determine the appropriateness of the involuntary detention” (face to face assessment).

If, in the professional’s judgment, the person can be properly served (WIC 5151) without being detained; then he or she shall be provided evaluation, crisis intervention, or other inpatient or outpatient services on a voluntary basis.

If the patient is being held on the basis of danger to others, the application should document the specific threats or attempts at bodily harm the person in question has made, along with the dates, if known. This information is not only needed for the 72-hour hold, but may be essential for the establishment of a subsequent 180-day detention.



This seem to say that, once the police determines an ACTUAL threat, they can 5150 the person, but the doctor could still say that they seem ok and not admit them, it seems.

It also appears that probable cause must be present:
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To constitute probable cause to detain a person pursuant to section 5150, a state of facts must be known (to the police officer, or authorized person) that would lead a person of ordinary care and prudence to believe or entertain a strong suspicion that the person detained is mentally disordered and is a danger to himself or to others or is gravely disabled.



and, that
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*Mental retardation, epilepsy, or other developmental disabilities, alcoholism, other drug abuse, or repeated antisocial behavior do not, by themselves, constitute a mental disorder (WIC 5585.25).


Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Read Heller and learn something.



Take your own advice - it says nothing about banning someone on the basis of weird Youtube videos.



Weird does not begin to describe him. Appears he was planning to be a poster boy for unlimited 2nd Amendment rights.

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Police say Jared Loughner, the suspect in the Arizona shooting rampage that left six dead and over a dozen wounded including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, posed in photos with a Glock 9mm while wearing a red g-string, according to a report.


Walgreens turned the photos over to police, according to a police source that spoke to CBS News.

Police say Loughner had dropped the photos off to be developed.

The New York Times reports that according to police, in some photos Loughner is holding the weapon by his crotch; in others, apparently taken in a mirror, he is holding it near his buttocks.

The gun is reportedly the same model Loughner is accused of using in the shooting.


...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Read Heller and learn something.



Take your own advice - it says nothing about banning someone on the basis of weird Youtube videos.



Weird does not begin to describe him. Appears he was planning to be a poster boy for unlimited 2nd Amendment rights.

Quote


Police say Jared Loughner, the suspect in the Arizona shooting rampage that left six dead and over a dozen wounded including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, posed in photos with a Glock 9mm while wearing a red g-string, according to a report.


Walgreens turned the photos over to police, according to a police source that spoke to CBS News.

Police say Loughner had dropped the photos off to be developed.

The New York Times reports that according to police, in some photos Loughner is holding the weapon by his crotch; in others, apparently taken in a mirror, he is holding it near his buttocks.

The gun is reportedly the same model Loughner is accused of using in the shooting.




DUDE.... that is some severely twisted stuff. Its too bad he went all maniacal and used that gun to kill people..otherwise he would have had a bright future working with Jeff Gannon.

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Read Heller and learn something.



Take your own advice - it says nothing about banning someone on the basis of weird Youtube videos.


Weird does not begin to describe him. Appears he was planning to be a poster boy for unlimited 2nd Amendment rights.

Quote


Police say Jared Loughner, the suspect in the Arizona shooting rampage that left six dead and over a dozen wounded including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, posed in photos with a Glock 9mm while wearing a red g-string, according to a report.


Walgreens turned the photos over to police, according to a police source that spoke to CBS News.

Police say Loughner had dropped the photos off to be developed.

The New York Times reports that according to police, in some photos Loughner is holding the weapon by his crotch; in others, apparently taken in a mirror, he is holding it near his buttocks.

The gun is reportedly the same model Loughner is accused of using in the shooting.



Well in that case we shouold definately relieve Bolas' second amendment rights.
He just cannot be safe.:|
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Read Heller and learn something.



Take your own advice - it says nothing about banning someone on the basis of weird Youtube videos.



Weird does not begin to describe him. Appears he was planning to be a poster boy for unlimited 2nd Amendment rights.

Quote


Police say Jared Loughner, the suspect in the Arizona shooting rampage that left six dead and over a dozen wounded including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, posed in photos with a Glock 9mm while wearing a red g-string, according to a report.


Walgreens turned the photos over to police, according to a police source that spoke to CBS News.

Police say Loughner had dropped the photos off to be developed.

The New York Times reports that according to police, in some photos Loughner is holding the weapon by his crotch; in others, apparently taken in a mirror, he is holding it near his buttocks.

The gun is reportedly the same model Loughner is accused of using in the shooting.



Am I the only bothered that Wallgreens turned those pictures over to police?

Last time I checked there's nothing illegal about posing in a G string with your guns. Weird, yes, but illegal, no.

Assuming they gave the police these pictures before the murders, that is.

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Am I the only bothered that Wallgreens turned those pictures over to police?

Last time I checked there's nothing illegal about posing in a G string with your guns. Weird, yes, but illegal, no.

Assuming they gave the police these pictures before the murders, that is.



I am under the impression that the photos were turned over after the murders, once the investigation began.

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Am I the only bothered that Wallgreens turned those pictures over to police?

Last time I checked there's nothing illegal about posing in a G string with your guns. Weird, yes, but illegal, no.

Assuming they gave the police these pictures before the murders, that is.



I am under the impression that the photos were turned over after the murders, once the investigation began.



Actually, I just re-read one of the articles about this, and it says that he dropped off the roll of film and then later picked it up. So, if the police got the photos from Walgreens, then that implies that Walgreens had kept a copy of them. (Which would be somewhat unethical, but not particularly surprising. However, it's unclear if that is what happened.???)

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Am I the only bothered that Wallgreens turned those pictures over to police?

Last time I checked there's nothing illegal about posing in a G string with your guns. Weird, yes, but illegal, no.

Assuming they gave the police these pictures before the murders, that is.



I am under the impression that the photos were turned over after the murders, once the investigation began.



Actually, I just re-read one of the articles about this, and it says that he dropped off the roll of film and then later picked it up. So, if the police got the photos from Walgreens, then that implies that Walgreens had kept a copy of them. (Which would be somewhat unethical, but not particularly surprising. However, it's unclear if that is what happened.???)



I knew a guy in college who worked at walgreens. He said the photo lab guys has a book with dupes of all the best shots. as you say... not particularly surprising.
--
Rob

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Am I the only bothered that Wallgreens turned those pictures over to police?

Last time I checked there's nothing illegal about posing in a G string with your guns. Weird, yes, but illegal, no.

Assuming they gave the police these pictures before the murders, that is.



I am under the impression that the photos were turned over after the murders, once the investigation began.



Actually, I just re-read one of the articles about this, and it says that he dropped off the roll of film and then later picked it up. So, if the police got the photos from Walgreens, then that implies that Walgreens had kept a copy of them. (Which would be somewhat unethical, but not particularly surprising. However, it's unclear if that is what happened.???)



I knew a guy in college who worked at walgreens. He said the photo lab guys has a book with dupes of all the best shots. as you say... not particularly surprising.



Well, it seems that Loughner is a really good fit to the profile of an assassin, according to the 1999 Secret Service Exception Case Study Project, by Fein and Vossekuil.

So maybe it really IS possible to make early identification of dangerous nutcases, IF the deniers decide to open their minds and concede that there ARE experts in this area.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Well, it seems that Loughner is a really good fit to the profile of an assassin, according to the 1999 Secret Service Exception Case Study Project, by Fein and Vossekuil.

So maybe it really IS possible to make early identification of dangerous nutcases, IF the deniers decide to open their minds and concede that there ARE experts in this area.



yes, there are profiling experts.

so are you proposing we profile every single american based on personal activities and then put them on the NICS list, and if they want to buy a gun they can fight the battle in court?

unfortunately, you'd be hard pressed to find a profiler that would feel they are accurate enough to remove someone's rights.

That is, unless they're you, but in that case, they won't share the answers.
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Rob

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unfortunately, you'd be hard pressed to find a profiler that would feel they are accurate enough to remove someone's rights.



I consider the assassin's victims right to live to outweigh your right to convenience. A very smart Supreme Court justice once observed that "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Well, it seems that Loughner is a really good fit to the profile of an assassin, according to the 1999 Secret Service Exception Case Study Project, by Fein and Vossekuil.

So maybe it really IS possible to make early identification of dangerous nutcases, IF the deniers decide to open their minds and concede that there ARE experts in this area.



Yes they are experts with 20/20 hindsight. I agree we should keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill people. We should never stop trying. Do you agree that no matter what is done, even an outright ban (I know you are not suggesting an outright ban) on guns would not keep someone else from using a gun in a violent crime in America?

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