Arizona Congresswoman, shot in the head

[quade 3]

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At least we have acknowledgement FINALLY that the issue is the person, not the tool.

Well, uhm, actually . . . in this case it turns out to be both and what's ironic is that the "tool" so many people have touted as being able to stop this sort of crime wasn't used to stop it and the specific gun part that goes on to this "tool" (a high capacity magazine) had been previously banned and it was ONLY because this particular crazy person had to reload that the event ended.

It would have ended earlier if he had to reload earlier.

Sorry guys, facts are facts and in this case it looks as if the previous ban on magazine size was, in fact, a good idea.

And here's the kicker, it wasn't ended by a CC holder, but instead a middle-aged woman that grabbed the fresh magazine he was swapping in.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[petejones45 0]

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Phoenix Times Online reporting that the classmates describe this guy as a left wing pothead. Guess your post looks even more brilliant than before huh

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/..._alleged_shooter.php

i'm sure there are right wingers that smoke pot as well

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[mnealtx 0]

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At least we have acknowledgement FINALLY that the issue is the person, not the tool.

Well, uhm, actually . . . in this case it turns out to be both and what's ironic is that the "tool" so many people have touted as being able to stop this sort of crime wasn't used to stop it and the specific gun part that goes on to this "tool" had been previously banned and it was ONLY because this particular crazy person had to reload that the event ended.

It would have ended earlier if he had to reload earlier.

Sorry guys, facts are facts and in this case it looks as if the previous ban on magazine size was, in fact, a good idea.

Still on the tool and not the user, Paul? Given that nobody reached him until after he emptied the larger mag, it's a pretty safe bet he would have gotten at least one reload in with 10 rounders.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[normiss 622]

Thankfully for the legal, sane, and responsible gun owner, that ban no longer exists.
It has VERY little to do with the reality of gun violence.
But it does sell new stories.

[popsjumper 2]

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Perhaps if we had a functioning system where teachers and psycologists were allowed to wave the red flags before they go into meltdown.
.
.
.
We rely on incomplete information when one of these undiagnosed whack-a doodle-doos can walk into a gun shop with a "clean" record, plop down their money, fill out all those nice yellow forms for the background check and get all the firepower they need to go out in a blaze of glory.

I hear what you are saying, but, like Mike...

I still have a problem with hosing somebody on the guess that they "might" do something. If you apply it to one, you gotta apply it to everybody and that is a very, very slippery slope.

Anybody "might" do anything...at any time, anywhere.
-Do we ALL lock ourselves up together?
-Who is the guy that has final say on who gets locked up and who doesn't.
-Is there anyone you trust to make the right decisions 100% of the time?

How about we just stick to the constitution instead of trying to re-write it?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[petejones45 0]

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I was responding to your own utter bullshit of liberals have absolutely been the worst offenders in the lead in this regard. Doesn't even merit a rebuttal; just a .

Facepalm indeed, that you even believe it to be false:

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link

link

link

link

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"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun" - Barack Obama
"punish our enemies" - Barack Obama
"I don't want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I'm angry!" - Barack Obama
"Punch back twice as hard" - Barack Obama
"I want to know who's ass to kick" - Barack Obama
"I'm itching for a fight" - Barack Obama
GOP are 'hostage-takers' - Barack Obama
Boehner a 'bomb-thrower' - Barack Obama

i hope you relize GWB said similar bullshit...

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[quade 3]

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At least we have acknowledgement FINALLY that the issue is the person, not the tool.

Well, uhm, actually . . . in this case it turns out to be both and what's ironic is that the "tool" so many people have touted as being able to stop this sort of crime wasn't used to stop it and the specific gun part that goes on to this "tool" had been previously banned and it was ONLY because this particular crazy person had to reload that the event ended.
It would have ended earlier if he had to reload earlier.
Sorry guys, facts are facts and in this case it looks as if the previous ban on magazine size was, in fact, a good idea.

Still on the tool and not the user, Paul? Given that nobody reached him until after he emptied the larger mag, it's a pretty safe bet he would have gotten at least one reload in with 10 rounders.

Emphasis mine. Please re-read.

Please note that once the magazine was emptied, the event ended because he had to reload and somebody simply stopped him from doing that. It wasn't a CC holder either, but an unarmed, middle-aged woman.

A lot of your favorite arguments in favor of high-capacity magazines are simply out the window with this one.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[CanuckInUSA 0]

It's true that the gunman would not have fired as many rounds if he had a smaller magazine. Who knows maybe a few of the victims wouldn't have been victims if he had a smaller magazine. But from what I understand about the sequence of events, a smaller magazine would not have saved Ms Giffords because wasn't she the first one shot?

You can legislate new laws to enforce smaller magazines. Smaller 5 round magazines are enforced here in Canada. Law abiding people will follow the new rules to use smaller magazines and the risks will be reduced for possible incidents. But they will never be eliminated. Mechanical objects can be modified and anyone who is planning pre-meditated murder like Jared Loughner appears to have done (word is out he has had issues with Ms Giffords since 2007, one year before anyone ever heard of Sarah Palin, back when Glen Beck still worked for CNN).

Unless more real evidence surfaces to prove otherwise, Jared Loughner is the guilty monster who committed a murderous act and he is to blame. There is a lot of extra hate floating around North America since this event and the media is largely responsible for the extra rhetoric being thrown around these last few days. The media has acted incredibly irresponsible jumping to their conclusions of who they wanted to blame before any facts of this event were known.

People need to stop being so easily influenced by the media. This includes FOX, MSNBC, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, CBC, CTV and Global ... all of them.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[turtlespeed 212]

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At least we have acknowledgement FINALLY that the issue is the person, not the tool.

Agreed.

Confirmed.Can we make this a sticky now?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Amazon 7]

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Perhaps if we had a functioning system where teachers and psycologists were allowed to wave the red flags before they go into meltdown.
.
.
.
We rely on incomplete information when one of these undiagnosed whack-a doodle-doos can walk into a gun shop with a "clean" record, plop down their money, fill out all those nice yellow forms for the background check and get all the firepower they need to go out in a blaze of glory.

I hear what you are saying, but, like Mike...

I still have a problem with hosing somebody on the guess that they "might" do something. If you apply it to one, you gotta apply it to everybody and that is a very, very slippery slope.

Anybody "might" do anything...at any time, anywhere.
-Do we ALL lock ourselves up together?
-Who is the guy that has final say on who gets locked up and who doesn't.
-Is there anyone you trust to make the right decisions 100% of the time?

How about we just stick to the constitution instead of trying to re-write it?

How about treating those who desparately need it instead of sweeping them ... and their problems under the carpet till they decide to lose it.

If they do manage to "straighten up and fly right" and prove they are not a threat to themselves or the rest of us then revisit their right to purchase a weapon. Right now... the system is basically non existent ... the arguement that those who have been judged mentally incompetent will not be allowed to buy and own weapons is missing far too many sick individuals who have no business whatso ever with firearms.

[turtlespeed 212]

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I was responding to your own utter bullshit of liberals have absolutely been the worst offenders in the lead in this regard. Doesn't even merit a rebuttal; just a .

Facepalm indeed, that you even believe it to be false:

Link

link

link

link

link

link

link

link

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun" - Barack Obama
"punish our enemies" - Barack Obama
"I don't want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I'm angry!" - Barack Obama
"Punch back twice as hard" - Barack Obama
"I want to know who's ass to kick" - Barack Obama
"I'm itching for a fight" - Barack Obama
GOP are 'hostage-takers' - Barack Obama
Boehner a 'bomb-thrower' - Barack Obama

i hope you relize GWB said similar bullshit...

I hope you realize that GWB is not the prseident now.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[petejones45 0]

so we should forget everything he's done?

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[turtlespeed 212]

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It's true that the gunman would not have fired as many rounds if he had a smaller magazine. Who knows maybe a few of the victims wouldn't have been victims if he had a smaller magazine. .

Do you understand the amout of assumptions that are being made here?
1) If he had a 10 round mag, easier to handle and use and reload, the deathtoll may have been even higher?
2) His comfort level, and self assurance with keeping people at bay with the larger mag was likely the reason that he was stopped. He simply forgot to count, and was caught off guard.
3) The larger magazine may very well have allowed the person to gain ground as the shots were fired, perhaps slower, but for a longer time span.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 212]

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so we should forget everything he's done?

What bearing does something he said in a speech 8 - 10 years ago have in reality to do with what Obama is rallying his troops with now?

For that matter, why don't we call up speeches from Teddy Roosevelt and use them comperably, what about IKE? he siad some pretty interesting things with war analogies.

This is just an I HATE BUSH post - admit it - be honest

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 3]

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It's true that the gunman would not have fired as many rounds if he had a smaller magazine. Who knows maybe a few of the victims wouldn't have been victims if he had a smaller magazine. .

Do you understand the amout of assumptions that are being made here?
1) If he had a 10 round mag, easier to handle and use and reload, the deathtoll may have been even higher?

There's no indication he was one of those individuals that can very quickly swap magazines.

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2) His comfort level, and self assurance with keeping people at bay with the larger mag was likely the reason that he was stopped. He simply forgot to count, and was caught off guard.

He stopped because he ran out of bullets. He would have ran out faster if the magazine had fewer in them.

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3) The larger magazine may very well have allowed the person to gain ground as the shots were fired, perhaps slower, but for a longer time span.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Allowed who? The shooter? Yes, he was able to pretty much do as he pleased as long as he was able to fire more rounds. With fewer rounds in the magazine, he wouldn't have gotten as far.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I wasn't there Turtle, I do not know who was standing where, how close people were to each other. He could have carried more the one weapon (like Klebold and Harris used) and that is a way to counteract smaller magazines. There is just no way to tell. But as I said only law abiding people would use small capacity magazines if they are legislated and in some cases it will help reduce some risks, but it will never eliminate them. Anyone planning a premeditated murder with half a brain can modify mechanical objects.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[quade 3]

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Anyone planning a premeditated murder with half a brain can modify mechanical objects.

And yet there's no indication this individual had the capacity to do so simply because there was no need for him to do so. He purchased the gun and magazines at a local gun shop, the bullets at Walmart.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 212]

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It's true that the gunman would not have fired as many rounds if he had a smaller magazine. Who knows maybe a few of the victims wouldn't have been victims if he had a smaller magazine. .

Do you understand the amout of assumptions that are being made here?
1) If he had a 10 round mag, easier to handle and use and reload, the deathtoll may have been even higher?

>>>There's no indication he was one of those individuals that can very quickly swap magazines.

There is no indication he was not either
I know that in my experience - it is harder and more cumbersom to use some of the aftermarket large capacity magazines

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2) His comfort level, and self assurance with keeping people at bay with the larger mag was likely the reason that he was stopped. He simply forgot to count, and was caught off guard.

>>>>He stopped because he ran out of bullets. He would have ran out faster if the magazines had fewer in them.

And if he had smaller magazines he would have had more of them on him and likely would have been better prepared to use them in a live fire situation.

You are just assuming because you want this to be true - Just because you want it that way doeasn't mean that that is the way it was, or is, or is going to be.

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3) The larger magazine may very well have allowed the person to gain ground as the shots were fired, perhaps slower, but for a longer time span.

>>>>I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Allowed who? The shooter? Yes, he was able to pretty much do as he pleased as long as he was able to fire more rounds. With fewer rounds, he wouldn't have gotten as far.

The person that stopped him and allowed the leos their advantage back -

Assumptions.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 212]

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I wasn't there Turtle, I do not know who was standing where, how close people were to each other. He could have carried more the one weapon (like Klebold and Harris used) and that is a way to counteract smaller magazines. There is just no way to tell. But as I said only law abiding people would use small capacity magazines if they are legislated and in some cases it will help reduce some risks, but it will never eliminate them. Anyone planning a premeditated murder with half a brain can modify mechanical objects.

I agree - but the blanket statement that the larger magazine caused more death is simply untrue.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I agree - but the blanket statement that the larger magazine caused more death is simply untrue.

I am not the one who said that. All I said was having a larger magazine allowed him to fire more rounds.

Having more bullets does not equate to more kills. You can have 30 rounds and not hit anything. Or you can have 5 rounds and score 5 kills (maybe even more).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]Most of the guys who do this crap do not do it in a vacuum. Many of them have had teachers as they were growiong up that knew there was an issue with the individual. All of them have a history leading up to the incident that makes them infamous.

Perhaps if we had a functioning system where teachers and psycologists were allowed to wave the red flags before they go into meltdown.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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He purchased the gun and magazines at a local gun shop, the bullets at Walmart.

He could have purchased some fertilizer, some ball bearings and rented a truck. But he didn't.

His actions were premeditated. He could have chosen to commit his crime in a different location, at a different time with a different tool. The common denominator in all of this was himself (the murderer) and his primary victim (Ms Griffords). For whatever perverse reason, he has had issues with her for a number of years now and many innocent people (including Ms Griffords) now suffer because of this mad man.

Blame the murderer, not the inanimate object(s) he used to commit his crime with.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Amazon 7]

Great then lets do it your way..

I will just blow the mutherfuckers away if and when one of them comes for me..

That seems to be what you are whining for... hope you are real good with YOUR freedom and RIGHT to protect your family..

You got me convinced.

Do nothing... great solution.

[quade 3]

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He purchased the gun and magazines at a local gun shop, the bullets at Walmart.

He could have purchased some fertilizer, some ball bearings and rented a truck. But he didn't.

Right. He picked the easiest and most readily available weapon to accomplish him goal. People generally do.

Making bombs is at least an order of magnitude more difficult than pulling a trigger. Further, since the OKC bombing and 9/11, purchasing large quantities of fertilizer sets off a number of actions simply buying a gun does not.

But nice try. Seriously.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Take away their ability to use firearms and maybe they will start making bombs.

Hmmm ... where have we seen that before?

Once again you seem rather fixated on the inanimate object where really you should be asking yourself, what possessed Jared Loughner to commit his premeditated murderous crime? But if you do find yourself asking yourself that question, do yourself a favor and remove yourself from any media sources because they will want you to believe that Sarah Palin, Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh are the ones to blame, even though there is not a shred of evidence to back up their libel.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over