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jclalor

Arizona Congresswoman, shot in the head

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OK, re-reading all of kallend's posts in this thread gives me this sense of a 3-pronged approach to a "solution" to the problem (defining the problem as nutcases gaining access to guns):

(1) Gun owner's should willfully turn in all their guns so that they are not being selfish in asserting their rights to the detriment of victims of gun crimes.

(2) The sale of guns should be banned.

(3) All right wing political speech should be banned as inciteful and hateful unless it is self-condemning. The simple fact that right-wing politicians have opposing views from the left is in itself proof that the RW'ers are nuts. No further mental evaluation necessary.



STRAWMAN. No one has suggested any such thing.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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So one more person now recognizes that the current state of the laws on firearms is inadequate. Baby steps.



so what would you change? You've only been asked that a half a dozen times in this thread.

choosing not to answer or at least admit that you don't have the answer pretty much identifies you as a troll. I don't think you're a troll, just stubborn and close-minded.



I don't know how to cure halitosis but I sure know when someone has it. The cure I leave to experts.

I don't know how to fill a cavity, but I sure know if I have toothache.

I don't know how to transfer the title on a house, but I sure know that when I bought one the title had to be transferred. I left that to experts.

I don't know how to service the magnetos in my plane, but I sure know when it misfires. The repair I leave to experts.

I sure know there's a gun violence problem in the USA. I'd prefer gun enthusiasts to come up with a solution.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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OK, re-reading all of kallend's posts in this thread gives me this sense of a 3-pronged approach to a "solution" to the problem (defining the problem as nutcases gaining access to guns):

(1) Gun owner's should willfully turn in all their guns so that they are not being selfish in asserting their rights to the detriment of victims of gun crimes.

(2) The sale of guns should be banned.

(3) All right wing political speech should be banned as inciteful and hateful unless it is self-condemning. The simple fact that right-wing politicians have opposing views from the left is in itself proof that the RW'ers are nuts. No further mental evaluation necessary.



STRAWMAN. No one has suggested any such thing.



Post # which support my guesses with your response taken in context with the post you are responding to. Unfortunately, that's all we have to go on ...making inferences as to your thoughts on a solution to a problem when it would be very simple for you to just state the direction you would like to see taken. No specific solution ...just an ideological direction.

(1) 79 81 104 129 135 143 150 202

(2) 71 79 108 158

(3) 29 71 79 88 99 104 108 126 128 132 144 149 192 193 206

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Which mental institution did Cho escape from? Which mental institution did Loughner escape from?

You are in denial, just like Winsor, Marc, Mark and Kennedy



uh.... you're obtuse is showing again.

first you get a court to declare them insane.

!!



Why did you snip your question and self-provided answer, which was:

Well how do we deal with mentally unstable people now? Mental institution.

The obtuse one is you. The law as it stands is clearly unable to stop nutcases like Cho and Loughner from obtaining guns.



well, aside from this post, I typically only quote what I think is relevant to my reply. That and I figure we can all read here and know how to use the scroll bar. Sorry, I'll quote your posts in entirety from now on so you don't have to worry about that.

The law as it stands now does not allow adjudicated nut-cases from buying firearms from a licensed dealer.

What law would you propose that might have prevented these two cases from obtaining a firearm?


I fully don't expect you to answer that question. But if you have step one, perhaps you have a step two. It remains to be determined that you care enough about solving the problem to share step two rather than just complain.
--
Rob

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The violence is a product of the society we have created. We have TV and movies that glorify violence, esp. gun violence. Programs aired as entertainment show the hero cutting down countless bad guys in pursuit of his goal without repercussions. The bad guys, who are human beings similar to us, are treated as objects that didn't exist until just before their demise and leave no family or loved ones behind. We are conditioned to feel no remorse in killing those who stand in the way of our goals.
Video games. Where do we start? The most popular video games have the player killing other people using any number of weapons. We now have an entire generation who have been "trained" from childhood to kill in a virtual world. It is not a big jump from killing in a virtual world to killing in the real one. This is known as desensitization. Get somebody to become used to killing in a simulated world and they will be far less likely to hesitate to kill in the real world.
Then we have the rhetoric. Politicians and their supporters referring to their opposition as if they were sent by the evil empire to destroy our way of life. To oppose a politician is to be slandered without mercy with no hope of ever being able to address the same audience. It is no wonder that some become so frustrated with constantly being called a bad person without a means to respond to the masses the same way a politician can.
Combine this with the relative ease with which a gun can be purchased here in the States and we have managed to set ourselves up for just the situation that happened yesterday. We, as a society, share the blame. WE taught this young man to kill. WE gave him a reason, valid or not. WE enabled him to procurre the means. Yes, the young man, if guilty, deserves punishment. But what of us, those who created the culture and society in which he felt he had no choice?
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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The violence is a product of the society we have created. We have TV and movies that glorify violence, esp. gun violence. Programs aired as entertainment show the hero cutting down countless bad guys in pursuit of his goal without repercussions. The bad guys, who are human beings similar to us, are treated as objects that didn't exist until just before their demise and leave no family or loved ones behind. We are conditioned to feel no remorse in killing those who stand in the way of our goals.
Video games. Where do we start? The most popular video games have the player killing other people using any number of weapons. We now have an entire generation who have been "trained" from childhood to kill in a virtual world. It is not a big jump from killing in a virtual world to killing in the real one. This is known as desensitization. Get somebody to become used to killing in a simulated world and they will be far less likely to hesitate to kill in the real world.
Then we have the rhetoric. Politicians and their supporters referring to their opposition as if they were sent by the evil empire to destroy our way of life. To oppose a politician is to be slandered without mercy with no hope of ever being able to address the same audience. It is no wonder that some become so frustrated with constantly being called a bad person without a means to respond to the masses the same way a politician can.
Combine this with the relative ease with which a gun can be purchased here in the States and we have managed to set ourselves up for just the situation that happened yesterday. We, as a society, share the blame. WE taught this young man to kill. WE gave him a reason, valid or not. WE enabled him to procurre the means. Yes, the young man, if guilty, deserves punishment. But what of us, those who created the culture and society in which he felt he had no choice?



So, your solution is:

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Anyone who is not fit to possess a loaded firearm is unfit to populate a free society.



So how would you deal with mentally unstable people like Cho and Loughner? Concentration camp?



Did you really ask that? Don't be intentionally obtuse.

Well how do we deal with mentally unstable people now? Mental institution.

next!



I seem to remember that conservative politicians fiscally opposed to anything other than supporting DOD or those companies who make the tools of war AKA tje Military Industiral Complex, closed down most of the mental institutions in this country in the 80's.

This is why we have streets littered with the "homeless" which overwhelmingly need to be in mental institutions.

Face it.. you guys do not support those kinds of programs because we need several new super Aircraft Carriers and a new fleet of B-2 and F- 35's

All those social programs that would help remove the nutbags were gutted long long ago.

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Didn't say I had one.
But I can say this: Whatever the solution is, it will not be quick or easy and everyone will feel they are being screwed over.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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I sure know there's a gun violence problem in the USA. I'd prefer gun enthusiasts to come up with a solution.



I don't think that being a "gun enthusiast" or even a "gun expert" necessarily makes one have above-average understanding of the gun violence problem. I think that is more of a psychological/sociological/cultural problem. Similar to the alcohol-related violence (including drunk driving) problem; I don't think I'd look to "alcohol enthusiasts" alone for the cure. (And similar in that an outright ban would probably greatly reduce the incidence of violence, while also greatly infringing on the rights of others.)

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What is the solution to either? Personal responsibility.



And that works fine for sane people. It's the insane we're talking about in this thread. The people without personal responsibility.

People's denial or failure to recognize that is also part of the issue.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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What is the solution to either? Personal responsibility.



And that works fine for sane people. It's the insane we're talking about in this thread. The people without personal responsibility.

People's denial or failure to recognize that is also part of the issue.


So do the sane thing at make it harder for the sane to get guns right?:S

You and kallend the this "people dont see" bs is just that, BS.

You got a solution? Offer it up
Lets see if you got more guts than kallend does today (as he did once)
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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You got a solution? Offer it up.



Unfortunately, all of the solutions I have are, in fact, going to be immediately shot down as violations by the strict 2nd Amendment advocates. I believe that the strict position the NRA and others take on the issue is part of the over all issue since they allow for NO movement whatsoever.

If, as has been reported, that the gun used in this crime was purchased about a month ago at a local gun shop, then it stands to reason that this kid slipped through the cracks of the system that allows a crazy person to buy a gun. Obviously there is something broken with the system of background checks required.

There absolutely needs to be a system in place to identify these individuals and lessen their threat to overall society. We, as a country, seem to have no issues whatsoever in tracking down "terrorists" and neutralizing them as a threat by raiding their homes and taking away their weapons.

Considering the number of people killed in this case, I see it as being no different, yet I do recognize the problem of arresting and taking away the weapons of any and all person's that appear to have become unstable. It's simply too capricious and would probably affect some of the more vocal members right here. ;)

However, what we have today is demonstrably broken if all reports are true. It does need to be fixed.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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What is the solution to either? Personal responsibility.



And that works fine for sane people. It's the insane we're talking about in this thread. The people without personal responsibility.

People's denial or failure to recognize that is also part of the issue.


So do the sane thing at make it harder for the sane to get guns right?:S

You and kallend the this "people dont see" bs is just that, BS.

You got a solution? Offer it up
Lets see if you got more guts than kallend does today (as he did once)


As far as the gun issue is concerned there are really only 3 answers.

(1)Ban and confiscation, repeal of the 2nd. Anything short of that will leave a "loophole" for a gun to get loose. Never happen.

(2)Hold committers of gun crimes responsible. Never happen.

(3)Hold the law-abiding gun owners, politicians, and manufacturers and the advocacy groups responsible for the actions of the criminals. Bingo!....this is the real agenda since #1 is impossible and #2 is never cut and dried. The only way to calm the masses is to "target" wrong-thinking people. Good for a few extra bucks and a new layer of bureaucracy, too.

There are no other options ...unless mandatory annual nutter exams are performed on everyone, maybe starting with preschool. Re-education camps could be recommended for borderline cases. ....Nah, never happen. (These exams would neccessarily be very hard to pass since no examiner would want to be responsible for letting a future loonytune be eligible for gun ownership.)

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You got a solution? Offer it up.



Unfortunately, all of the solutions I have are, in fact, going to be immediately shot down as violations by the strict 2nd Amendment advocates. I believe that the strict position the NRA and others take on the issue is part of the over all issue since they allow for NO movement whatsoever.

If, as has been reported, that the gun used in this crime was purchased about a month ago at a local gun shop, then it stands to reason that this kid slipped through the cracks of the system that allows a crazy person to buy a gun. Obviously there is something broken with the system of background checks required.Fair enough. What exactly is broken and how do you fix it?

There absolutely needs to be a system in place to identify these individuals and lessen their threat to overall society. We, as a country, seem to have no issues whatsoever in tracking down "terrorists" and neutralizing them as a threat by raiding their homes and taking away their weapons.I am for that. How do you do it and still uphold the rights of the people?

Considering the number of people killed in this case, I see it as being no different, yet I do recognize the problem of arresting and taking away the weapons of any and all person's that appear to have become unstable. It's simply too capricious and would probably affect some of the more vocal members right here. ;)

However, what we have today is demonstrably broken if all reports are true. It does need to be fixed.


Again. What is broken and then how would you fix it. Stating these generalities do nothing but inflame the debate. Got specifics offer them up.
I dont have any. I dont want nuts to get guns. I dont want drunks and druggies driving either. We got that stopped now though dont we.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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First, this guy and his followers are probably crazy.
Second, anyone who thinks his rantings are about religion are deluded. He is about self-agrandizing self-promotion, even if some of his sheep are equally deluded. Unfortunately, he probably already has a gun.

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I find no humor in the fact that innocent people have died. I do however find it humorous that palin's official take back the 20 site, which featured cross mark targeting and statements about reloading has been taken down, while this site pointing out the absurdity of their previous position is now up.It's disgusting to me that people had to die for the right wing fanatics leadership to realize that they have been instigating violence for their own benefit.

Maybe, she could have used a dart...Then, at best, the congresswoman would have only lost an eye.

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So is the problem guns? Is it rhetoric?

Or is it untreated mental illness?

I think that in terms of looking for strawmen and political gain, there's a helluva lot of inciteful, angry, horrific shit being said - all of which takes away from the discussion of the issue of mental illness.

Well, let's face it - there's no political haymaker to throw when a mentally ill guy doesn't kill somebody. Let's not treat the mentally ill. No. Let's make sure that we keep guns, knives, and pipes away from them.

Then let's put limits on speech, because there are mentally ill people out there who we don't want to treat but may blow up.

Let me ask anybody out there with any knowledge whatsoever whether what Glenn Beck says is anything remotely near what voices tell these people to do?


It's that you just plain don't fucking care about mental illness. You all have a much better time accusing each other. You all have a wonderful time with your hate-filled blame games.


TREATING THE MENTALLY ILL, I would think, would save lives. Instead of waiting for them to blow so they can be in prison because they killed people.



This is the most insightful post in this thread.

And it appears that a lot of people are starting to agree with you, lawrocket:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/01/09/arizona.shooting.rhetoric/index.html?hpt=C1

Another thing i've noticed is that here in SC, no one seems to read posts anymore as much as they read the name of the poster and immediately start to form their arguments. I can barely stand to read through these types of threads anymore because of all the responses to the *person* and not the idea.

I propose that for a day, the moderators change everyone's username to something completely different. start with a clean slate. then instead of bashing "the professor" or "mike" we can actually read and respond to ideas. Some of which, when you get right down to it, are good on BOTH sides of the debate (any debate).

All this rhetoric and anger at each other is causing real ideas to get lost, people to hate each other over stupid shit, and NOTHING to get done. not just in here, but on the larger political scale. I can't change who Glenn Beck and Keith Olbermann are, but maybe if one day mnealtx and kallend became completely anonymous again, they might actually hold a civil discussion regarding guns. or whatever.
Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

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I can barely stand to read through these types of threads anymore because of all the responses to the *person* and not the idea.



Well maybe things would be different if all the other posters at dz.com weren't so afraid to voice thier opinion. It's always the same people...I think it's to the point now that most post for the entertainment value, not to change the world. I've recently been learning/understanding that you don't change the world by talking, but through the influence of living a credible consistent lifestyle.
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

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6 dead, just collateral damage so you can have your toys.

Thousands dead, every year, just for the convenience of not having to walk.



So you want to compare guns with cars on the public roads, OK.

Insurance required.

Test of competency required before you can use one.

Must have license in possession whenever using.

Registration required.

Must have visible ID affixed.

Strict safety criteria on design and construction.

High taxes on consumables.

Annual safety checks in many states.

etc.


I suspect you don't want to pursue that analogy.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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6 dead, just collateral damage so you can have your toys.

Thousands dead, every year, just for the convenience of not having to walk.



So you want to compare guns with cars on the public roads, OK.

Insurance required.

Test of competency required before you can use one.

Must have license in possession whenever using.

Registration required.

Must have visible ID affixed.

Strict safety criteria on design and construction.

High taxes on consumables.

Annual safety checks in many states.

etc.


I suspect you don't want to pursue that analogy.




No Constitutional Right to drive a car.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

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I dont want nuts to get guns. I dont want drunks and druggies driving either. We got that stopped now though dont we.



I suspect that is an analogy that you don't really want to pursue, if you actually bother to think about the restrictions on driving on public roads.

The first step in solving a problem is to admit that there is one.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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