dreamdancer 0 #201 December 29, 2010 QuoteThe "super rich" can't dump mortgages unless someone else buys them. that's what froze the money markets - nobody wanted to buy them anymore. they just wanted to sell them.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #202 December 29, 2010 QuoteQuoteDefaulting preceded economic slowdown. Check out the graphs. defaulting came after the banks froze. the banks froze because the super rich couldn't, in the end, dump all their toxic loans into the market. Please Show us your sources for this claim"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #203 December 29, 2010 >yes, that's the super rich . . Actually, the "super rich" wanted to make money off those mortgages. The "market participants" that the author was referring to were the mortgage holders who started to default when they realized they couldn't pay their mortgages. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #204 December 29, 2010 Quote>yes, that's the super rich . . Actually, the "super rich" wanted to make money off those mortgages. The "market participants" that the author was referring to were the mortgage holders who started to default when they realized they couldn't pay their mortgages. market participants sounds to me more like the banks that were caught out with the toxic loans on their books - they should have exercised more care when buying these packages.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #205 December 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote First, you hate on the rich, now women. and why do you hate the poor? Everyone has their station in life. There is no hate for it - just reality. then accept the reality that the super rich and their children will have to pay their fair share of taxes... Why steal from them? Are you that much of a theif? How would you like it if Someone less fortunate than you stole your money? Taxes are not stealing, they are permitted in the US Constitution. Why do you hate the US Constitution? I want to know why all the conservatives here feel that every dollar they can acquire they deserve to keep. Talk about wanting something for nothing.. who the hell do they expect to pay for their lifestyle of living in a first world country with pesky things like roads, schools, and all the other services they EXPECT. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #206 December 29, 2010 >defaulting came after the banks froze. Nope. Here's the timeline: 2002: Home market appreciating 10% a year in many places 2003: Interest rate set to 1% by Greenspan These set the stage for "irrational exuberance" in home buyers, leading to: 2003-2007: U.S. subprime mortgages increase by ~300% 2004: U.S. homeownership rate hits record peak of 70% 2004: Mortgage defaults at historic lows in California. 2005: Housing market collapses due to oversupply. Home prices drop 3% nationwide. This is the beginning of the crash. Now those people who were getting mortgages so they can "flip" their homes are stuck with mortgages they cannot pay. 2006: US home construction drops by 40%. 2006: CA defaults hit 7000/qtr Now that the defaults have begun, overleveraged banks can no longer maintain their returns on their mortgage products. 2007: CA defaults hit 35,000/qtr 2007: Mortgage Lenders Network, New Century and Countrywide file bankruptcy. 2007: Merrill Lynch loses 8.4 billion on subprimes. 2008: CA defaults hit 80,000/qtr 2008: Market really starts to tank Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #207 December 29, 2010 >market participants sounds to me more like the banks that were caught >out with the toxic loans on their books - they should have exercised more >care when buying these packages. Well, it is certainly true that EVERYONE, from homeowners to debt product purchasers, should have exercised more care. The packages were only valuable if everyone paid their mortgages; certainly a risky proposition in anything other than a stellar market. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #208 December 29, 2010 QuoteThe pols will never let an opportunity to increase the take go by. Which is exactly why I oppose it if it is in addition to the existing tax.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #209 December 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote First, you hate on the rich, now women. and why do you hate the poor? Everyone has their station in life. There is no hate for it - just reality. then accept the reality that the super rich and their children will have to pay their fair share of taxes... Why steal from them? Are you that much of a theif? How would you like it if Someone less fortunate than you stole your money? Taxes are not stealing, they are permitted in the US Constitution. Why do you hate the US Constitution? I want to know why all the conservatives here feel that every dollar they can acquire they deserve to keep. Talk about wanting something for nothing.. who the hell do they expect to pay for their lifestyle of living in a first world country with pesky things like roads, schools, and all the other services they EXPECT. What conservative here has posted that this is what they want?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #210 December 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote First, you hate on the rich, now women. and why do you hate the poor? Everyone has their station in life. There is no hate for it - just reality. then accept the reality that the super rich and their children will have to pay their fair share of taxes... Why steal from them? Are you that much of a theif? How would you like it if Someone less fortunate than you stole your money? Taxes are not stealing, they are permitted in the US Constitution. Why do you hate the US Constitution? I want to know why all the conservatives here feel that every dollar they can acquire they deserve to keep. Talk about wanting something for nothing.. who the hell do they expect to pay for their lifestyle of living in a first world country with pesky things like roads, schools, and all the other services they EXPECT. What conservative here has posted that this is what they want? Nearly every post from the usual suspects is dripping with conservative greed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #211 December 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote First, you hate on the rich, now women. and why do you hate the poor? Everyone has their station in life. There is no hate for it - just reality. then accept the reality that the super rich and their children will have to pay their fair share of taxes... Why steal from them? Are you that much of a theif? How would you like it if Someone less fortunate than you stole your money? Taxes are not stealing, they are permitted in the US Constitution. Why do you hate the US Constitution? I want to know why all the conservatives here feel that every dollar they can acquire they deserve to keep. Talk about wanting something for nothing.. who the hell do they expect to pay for their lifestyle of living in a first world country with pesky things like roads, schools, and all the other services they EXPECT. What conservative here has posted that this is what they want? Nearly every post from the usual suspects is dripping with conservative greed A generaltiy Who? where is the post? or admit you made it up"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #212 December 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote First, you hate on the rich, now women. and why do you hate the poor? Everyone has their station in life. There is no hate for it - just reality. then accept the reality that the super rich and their children will have to pay their fair share of taxes... Why steal from them? Are you that much of a theif? How would you like it if Someone less fortunate than you stole your money? Taxes are not stealing, they are permitted in the US Constitution. Why do you hate the US Constitution? I want to know why all the conservatives here feel that every dollar they can acquire they deserve to keep. Talk about wanting something for nothing.. who the hell do they expect to pay for their lifestyle of living in a first world country with pesky things like roads, schools, and all the other services they EXPECT. What conservative here has posted that this is what they want? Nearly every post from the usual suspects is dripping with conservative greed So in other words, you can't show any posts saying that.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #213 December 29, 2010 QuoteNow that the defaults have begun, overleveraged banks can no longer maintain their returns on their mortgage products. so defaults have 'begun' - not hit a peak just 'begun' (and remember that there is a certain level of defaults at all times). so why didn't individual banks just take their losses and carry on? that's right the super rich have already packaged up all these mortgages, sold them over a few times from bank to bank and then into the global money market which immediately freezes. then the economy is hit because rather than letting the super rich take their losses we have to find extra taxes to pay them off.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #214 December 29, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote"Fair share" is a meaningless concept. which implies that economics is a meaningless science. I don't believe economics is science at all. It's good to know your own limitations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #215 December 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote First, you hate on the rich, now women. and why do you hate the poor? Everyone has their station in life. There is no hate for it - just reality. then accept the reality that the super rich and their children will have to pay their fair share of taxes... Why steal from them? Are you that much of a theif? How would you like it if Someone less fortunate than you stole your money? Taxes are not stealing, they are permitted in the US Constitution. Why do you hate the US Constitution? I want to know why all the conservatives here feel that every dollar they can acquire they deserve to keep. Talk about wanting something for nothing.. who the hell do they expect to pay for their lifestyle of living in a first world country with pesky things like roads, schools, and all the other services they EXPECT. What conservative here has posted that this is what they want? Nearly every post from the usual suspects is dripping with conservative greed So in other words, you can't show any posts saying that. Both of ya.... Caint see yalls forest for dem silly trees Psst its drippin all over the place... seriously Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #216 December 29, 2010 QuoteQuoteNow an answer of my question please the answer to your question is that if the super rich had paid their fair share of taxes then the rest of us wouldn't have had to bail them out with our own money. Your own postings suggest that taxing 100% of their wealth would still only generate income to pay for 50% of one year's deficit. So this latest assertion of your's, like the rest, falls apart when faced with reality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #217 December 29, 2010 Quote>the banks froze first - nothing to do with people defaulting. ?? No, the banks like making money, which they were doing until people started defaulting. A good statement on this from the G20: The magnitude of the meltdown far exceeds the defaulted loans, due to ineptitude on the part of Wall Street Whiz Kids.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj123 0 #218 December 29, 2010 Quote>so suddenly a whole generation of mortgagers 'chose' to take on >loans that they couldn't afford? Well, no; it wasn't a "whole generation"; even during the worst of the crisis only 12% of homes with mortgages ended up under water. That was enough, however, to start the slide into a recession. It was a gradual process. Here's how it happened: Homeowners note that home sales are soaring and home values are climbing. Their house is now worth more! And mortgage rates are low! Years before that owner would never have considered that new $750,000 home, but if you combine a low rate adjustable rate mortgage and increased equity in their current home it becomes just _barely_ possible. And, they think, this is a great investment! With home values skyrocketing, that $750,000 house will be worth $1.5 million in 5 years. So if they can't pay their mortgage, they'll just sell and pocket a cool 3/4 of a million dollars. So they do it, using a mortgage they can just barely afford. But then mortgage rates go up. Their monthly bill goes up. Now they can't afford the mortgage payments. So they think about selling - but now their home is worth only $600,000 because few people can afford the higher mortgage rates, so no one's buying. They'd have to come up with $150,000 to even be able to afford to sell their home, and then they'd be left with nothing. So they stop paying their mortgage. Mortgage companies then raise the rates on the remaining mortgages to cover the difference. More homeowners stop paying mortgages. The loan market collapses, and the economy follows. If every single person that bought a house they couldn't afford had gotten a fixed rate mortgage that they _could_ afford, then the lending crisis would not have occurred. Sounds pretty simple Bill. Obviously you don't quite understand what really happened. Let's say it was just that simple. One defaulted mortge didn't cause all this mess. If it was 12% of all mortgages going into default I would be more apt to place responsibility on the bankers who made bad loans. They have the know how to check on credit reports ,income,etc. What was the motivation to make so many bad loans? Blue Skies, DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #219 December 29, 2010 QuoteQuoteThose who think Bush's tax cuts raised revenues need to check their facts AFTER correcting for inflation. Speaking of checking facts: Constant 1990 $, year-on-year 2003: +1.08% 2004: +6.92 2005: +4.77% 2006: +2.92% 2007: +1.97% Meaningless. Carefully omitting comparison with 1999, 2000, 2001.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #220 December 29, 2010 QuoteQuote>so suddenly a whole generation of mortgagers 'chose' to take on >loans that they couldn't afford? Well, no; it wasn't a "whole generation"; even during the worst of the crisis only 12% of homes with mortgages ended up under water. That was enough, however, to start the slide into a recession. It was a gradual process. Here's how it happened: Homeowners note that home sales are soaring and home values are climbing. Their house is now worth more! And mortgage rates are low! Years before that owner would never have considered that new $750,000 home, but if you combine a low rate adjustable rate mortgage and increased equity in their current home it becomes just _barely_ possible. And, they think, this is a great investment! With home values skyrocketing, that $750,000 house will be worth $1.5 million in 5 years. So if they can't pay their mortgage, they'll just sell and pocket a cool 3/4 of a million dollars. So they do it, using a mortgage they can just barely afford. But then mortgage rates go up. Their monthly bill goes up. Now they can't afford the mortgage payments. So they think about selling - but now their home is worth only $600,000 because few people can afford the higher mortgage rates, so no one's buying. They'd have to come up with $150,000 to even be able to afford to sell their home, and then they'd be left with nothing. So they stop paying their mortgage. Mortgage companies then raise the rates on the remaining mortgages to cover the difference. More homeowners stop paying mortgages. The loan market collapses, and the economy follows. If every single person that bought a house they couldn't afford had gotten a fixed rate mortgage that they _could_ afford, then the lending crisis would not have occurred. Sounds pretty simple Bill. Obviously you don't quite understand what really happened. Let's say it was just that simple. One defaulted mortge didn't cause all this mess. If it was 12% of all mortgages going into default I would be more apt to place responsibility on the bankers who made bad loans. They have the know how to check on credit reports ,income,etc. What was the motivation to make so many bad loans? Blue Skies, DJ COMMISSIONS And they made BILLIONS that went into their personal pockets Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #221 December 29, 2010 Quote They have the know how to check on credit reports ,income,etc. What was the motivation to make so many bad loans? uh, money? They make the loan, and then they sell it off within weeks or a few months. At that point, their involvement, their risk, their profit, is complete. Here is the regulatory failure in the process - the originators were no longer responsible for bad decisions. And those buying the loans were so leveraged that it didn't take too much to put them deep in the hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #222 December 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote First, you hate on the rich, now women. and why do you hate the poor? Everyone has their station in life. There is no hate for it - just reality. then accept the reality that the super rich and their children will have to pay their fair share of taxes... Why steal from them? Are you that much of a theif? How would you like it if Someone less fortunate than you stole your money? Taxes are not stealing, they are permitted in the US Constitution. Why do you hate the US Constitution? I want to know why all the conservatives here feel that every dollar they can acquire they deserve to keep. Talk about wanting something for nothing.. who the hell do they expect to pay for their lifestyle of living in a first world country with pesky things like roads, schools, and all the other services they EXPECT. What conservative here has posted that this is what they want? Nearly every post from the usual suspects is dripping with conservative greed So in other words, you can't show any posts saying that. Both of ya.... Caint see yalls forest for dem silly trees Psst its drippin all over the place... seriously Link the posts or admit you lied where did any conservative or anyone who posts here said they did not want to pay any taxes? Post it Or admit you made it up Your post below You said the following Quote Did you lie or has anyone stated they want to keep all their money from the gov IE: pay no taxes Well?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #223 December 29, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteThose who think Bush's tax cuts raised revenues need to check their facts AFTER correcting for inflation. Speaking of checking facts: Constant 1990 $, year-on-year 2003: +1.08% 2004: +6.92 2005: +4.77% 2006: +2.92% 2007: +1.97% Meaningless. Carefully omitting comparison with 1999, 2000, 2001. I was unaware that Bush was President in 1999 and 2000. Do you do this alternate universe thing often?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #224 December 29, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThose who think Bush's tax cuts raised revenues need to check their facts AFTER correcting for inflation. Speaking of checking facts: Constant 1990 $, year-on-year 2003: +1.08% 2004: +6.92 2005: +4.77% 2006: +2.92% 2007: +1.97% Meaningless. Carefully omitting comparison with 1999, 2000, 2001. I was unaware that Bush was President in 1999 and 2000. Do you do this alternate universe thing often? REAL government revenues (after adjusting for inflation and population growth) declined 4.7% since the end of the Clinton adminstration to 2007 (before the meltdown). The accumulated revenues under the Bush administration to 2007 were $14.09Trillion, whereas if the revenues during the last Clinton year had continued just at the same level (not even inflating or increasing due to population growth) the accumulated revenue would be $14.18Trillion. Then there was the meltdown under Bush's watch.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #225 December 29, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote First, you hate on the rich, now women. and why do you hate the poor? Everyone has their station in life. There is no hate for it - just reality. then accept the reality that the super rich and their children will have to pay their fair share of taxes... Why steal from them? Are you that much of a theif? How would you like it if Someone less fortunate than you stole your money? Taxes are not stealing, they are permitted in the US Constitution. Why do you hate the US Constitution? I want to know why all the conservatives here feel that every dollar they can acquire they deserve to keep. Talk about wanting something for nothing.. who the hell do they expect to pay for their lifestyle of living in a first world country with pesky things like roads, schools, and all the other services they EXPECT. What conservative here has posted that this is what they want? Nearly every post from the usual suspects is dripping with conservative greed So in other words, you can't show any posts saying that. Both of ya.... Caint see yalls forest for dem silly trees Psst its drippin all over the place... seriously Link the posts or admit you lied where did any conservative or anyone who posts here said they did not want to pay any taxes? Post it Or admit you made it up Your post below You said the following Quote Did you lie or has anyone stated they want to keep all their money from the gov IE: pay no taxes Well? Rub those brain cells ya got together.. come on now.. who is CONSTANTLY WHINING about taxes and anything but defense spending???? CONSERVETARDS The price for living in a first world country with all the services you expect is TAXES... if you can donothing but WHINE about having to pay and pay for all those pesky things YOU are the ones LYING about your motivation to keep every red cent you can get your mits on. Personally I do not mind paying to live in a first world country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
