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azdiver

low turn to make the lz

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last weekend at a dz i jump at a man, visitor from out of state unknown to anyone at the dz and no one knows how much experience he had as well, was coming in for a landing at the alternate lz when he changed his mind and decided to go for the main lz at about 40 ft he realized he would not make it he turned 180 to go back to the alt lz he finished the turn but did not have enough time to flare. instead of plf he raised his feet. like a tandem student on landing and really screwed up his tailbone and his back everyone at the dz explained to me its better to break a leg than do what he did. not sure of the mans condition but he was in bad shape according to witnesses attending to him.
light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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Just proves that we need to know where we will be landing at well before we reach 1500 feet. Last second changes can be this result. I am sure that he will not do that one again. If one is going to do stupid things one must be tough to deal with it.
Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

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Bummer. Remember, it's better to land crosswind, downwind, whatever, with your canopy in level flight and a good flare, than to ever land in a turn. If you are in a turn down low, you can bring the other toggle down to match for a flare, instead of letting up, then flaring.

Learn to fly in 1/2 brakes, learn to make flat turns, learn to fly a pattern and land accurately. All these things will save your ass if you jump long enough. There is no excuse for the accident you witnessed other than lack of training and/or ability. Sorry. [:/]

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one thing i forgot to add was he could have kept going straight and landed in the dirt. nothing in front of him but open desert for at least 100 yards
light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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screwed up his tailbone and his back everyone at the dz explained to me its better to break a leg than do what he did.



OK, if you have to choose between a broken back or a broken leg, yeah, go with the broken leg.

How about option 'C', no breaking anything? Your orientation to the wind only controls your horizontal speed component. Into the wind will give a lower horizontal speed, and with the wind will give a higher horizontal speed.

Your vertical speed (aka, the speed at which you hit the ground) is controlled by flaring the canopy. You can be landing downwind, in a 20 mph donwwind, and if you flare properly, your vertical speed upon touchdown will be the same as if you were landing into the wind. Any resultant injuries would be from your considerable forward speed, and how you handled it.

Your number one job when landing your canopy is to have your wing level. Your number two job os to flare the canopy. Everything else is optional.

If you're downwind, with a level wing a good flare, you will have little to no problems.

If you hit a tree, house, or cow, and your wing is level and you have a good flare, you stand a good chance of walking away.

If you are in the center of the flattest field you can find, and landing into a steady 8kt wind, and you are in a turn when you hit, or you fail to flare your canopy, you're gonna get messed up.

See? Wing level + good flare = good chance for a safe landing, even if you screw up everything else.

Wing not level and/or no flare = expect to bleed.

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Auch!! I do that. When I see the ground rushing towards me I get scared and I lift my legs and slide on my bottom, just like the tandems. The grassy landing is uneven and I am subconsciously afraid that I will twist an ankle.
Most times that I did try to run I ended on my face. My landings stink!! (and the rest is not that great either)

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you can make low turns with some practice this is just a braked turn right? my wing aint level. it did end up that way though.
we'll just call this an advanced manuver but when your feet need to touch down the canopy needs to be over head.
bsbd
keith
The skies are no longer safe

I'm back

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Understood, so assuming that you manage to kill all of the vertical speed, but are left with considerable horizontal speed, is a PLF the best way to go?. My understanding is that PLF was originally developed for the reverse situation, i.e. dealing with vertical speed.

As a keen skier/motorcyclist I've fallen over many many times with lots of horizontal speed (working on the theory that if you aren't falling occasionally, you are going fast enough:$) and have never PLFed nor ever suffered any major damage from horizontal speed (touch wood).

So in this situation, do you always PLF?
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

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Understood, so assuming that you manage to kill all of the vertical speed, but are left with considerable horizontal speed, is a PLF the best way to go?. My understanding is that PLF was originally developed for the reverse situation, i.e. dealing with vertical speed.

So in this situation, do you always PLF?

I agree with what you are saying, but many experienced jumpers don't. However, Franz Webber, the many time World record speed skiing champion, told me once that falling at 100+ MPH wasn't so bad . . . unless you try to stop. Then, he said, it's bad.

My take on it:

High vertical rate, PLF.

High horizontal rate, slide.

High vertical and horizontal rate, you're fucked, but PLF anyway.

I speak of all three from experience. :D:S

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one thing i forgot to add was he could have kept going straight and landed in the dirt. nothing in front of him but open desert for at least 100 yards

Proves the theory of natural selection still applies....

As for the guy who lifts his legs.....ask your instructor /DZO what those round loopy things you find on the end of your brake lines are for.....because you shouldn't do another jump till you learn how to use them.....

Otherwise, do not pass go, go straight to hospital, do not collect 200 bucks.....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Recently a friend and I did a jump into a field next to my house with all the neighbors and a few relatives watching of course. The winds had picked up considerably from the time we took off to the time I set up my landing pattern. As I turned into final I'm looking directly at the barbed wire fence and that is where I'm going. I was still at 3 to 4 hundred feet so turned downwind, a better alternative I thought because of the wide open field. As I get ready to flare I'm thinking that I can run this out. Don't want to fall down in front of everybody watching you know. Well it was sorta like jumping out of the back of a truck at 25 mph and trying to run it out. Pretty hard to keep your toes in front of your nose at that stage. After 5 or 6 steps I went down in sort of a PLF and rolled right back up to my feet like I ment to do it. I put some nice new scratches in my brand new Bonehead and had to spend 40 bucks at the chiropractor. Neck, back and hips. Lesson #1, dont get to far downwind. Lesson # 2, PLF. The little neighbor boy sure got a kick out of it tho, he comes up after and says to me " I sure like it when you land fast like that:S


I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

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I like your theory best... It sticks to a student's mind real quick, especially the third part of your take.

"High vertical and horizontal rate, you're fucked, but PLF anyway."

I like Babi have come in on my tushie when there is no wind to land against. But my JM's constantly watch the changing conditions here in TX wind/weather. They tell you in the packing area which way the wind is and to remember to spot the dz high enough to pattern yourself in , then again on the way to the plane, then again as you are going to your altitude.. "Repitition"

I guess after being witness myself to someone coming in High vertical and horizontal rate,
and tasting tarmac/grass the day after my first tandem years ago. Your theory is quick and to the point.....

Have always wanted to be a social butterfly but now I have the wind beneath my feet.

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...
My take on it:
High vertical rate, PLF.
High horizontal rate, slide.
High vertical and horizontal rate, you're fucked, but PLF anyway.

I speak of all three from experience. :D:S



Good stuff, John. I would like to add...

On high-horizontal rate sliding:
The original poster said the guy did slide. BUT, the way he did the slide was totally, totally wrong and he paid the price for using that method; "tandem but-sliding" is a no-no and many crushed vertebrae and spinal discs can attest to that. I've seen it way too many times (haven't we all?).

People, if you're going to slide, learn how to slide. Feet straight out landing on your ass is NOT the way to do it.

One good method is the "baseball" slide. Quarterbacks use it, too. You slide on your calf and thigh, not your butt. I'm not going into detail here on how to do it. Talk to a baseball player. Yeah, you get dirt on your new jumpsuit but you nearly always walk away from it.

Another good method is to tuck and roll it out. Football players and gymnasts are good at this. Find one and discuss technique. Yeah, you wind up tangled in a mess of lines but you nearly always walk away from it. This works well for the high-V AND high H situations, too.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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One good method is the "baseball" slide. Quarterbacks use it, too. You slide on your calf and thigh, not your butt. I'm not going into detail here on how to do it. Talk to a baseball player. Yeah, you get dirt on your new jumpsuit but you nearly always walk away from it.

Yes, I agree, use the cheek, not the tailbone. The Tandem slides are done with almost no sink, just too much speed to run it out (doing that 4 legged tandem shuffle:S). It's more of a sitdown than a slam. If it's going to be a hard one, I do roll to the side some, and even kick the passenger's legs wherever I want them.

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Who the hell are you to have an opinion on my landing, with 45 jumps your better off sticking to the basics, the only motherfucker out there was me. dont start this on just what some dumbass said he thinks happened. I am not from out of state I'm from phoenix and I am with the rebel skydivers, everybody knows who I am, talk to my friend John Wilsey. If your woundering why the hell my feet were up its because I have bad heals from 2 tours in Iraq. and it was not 40 feet I know for a fact I was committed at just over 100ft.(with a video to prove it) just a damn windshift no big deal it happens yea I broke my back (lucky for you) but already I am walking and doing just fine.You got a lot of nerve comparing me to a student young buck. but I will let it slide, get your facts straight. see you in the air. Blue skies

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Who the hell are you to have an opinion on my landing, with 45 jumps your better off sticking to the basics, the only motherfucker out there was me.



I don't have an opinion on your landing, but I have an opinion on your attitude. If your canopy skills are anything like your communication skills it's no suprise you were injured.

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dont start this on just what some dumbass said he thinks happened. I am not from out of state I'm from phoenix and I am with the rebel skydivers, everybody knows who I am, talk to my friend John Wilsey.



I don't know who you are, and don't really give a shit who you are. After this post I don't really care to meet you.

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no big deal it happens yea I broke my back



:S

That's posibly the most stupid statement I've ever heard.

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Yes I do understand what you are saying and I agree however at the time all I saw was some stupid log that was along side the road, I tried to lift my legs to clear that and in a split second there is the ground. I have befor landed on my ass and it was never bad. never would I imagine it would have been this bad. I'm fine my back is hardly broken at all, just slightly fractured.

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DUDE! Glad to here your up & about:) Either way get your ass healed in time for the Caravan. The Rebels & the Buckeye Destroyers have a bunch of formations to funnel this season:P
You said that you were trying to clear a log at the side of the road. I heard that was a paved road, if so there can be alot of turbulence when crossing from desert to pavement to grass, especially at a very low alt. in very high temps(above 105)
----------------------------------------------
"Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!"
AQR#3,CWR#49

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sorry about saying you were from out of state but everyone we talked to had no idea who you were or just wouldnt say,all they said was you were from out of state. hope your good soon looked hard saw just as hit didnt know you were badly hurt untill later when i was landing again. main reson i posted this was becuse they way i land is usally a slide just like that,and i know those stupid logs are a pain landed and tripped on one before hope your ok and good to dive soon.as for everything else in my comment it was what was explained to me what lead up to the accident
light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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Hey glad you didn't take offense to my message, I just didn't want people thinking I was a complete fool turning 180 at 40ft. (which was not the case, and good luck to anyone who tries that) I cought wind of this forum from a good friend and dropzone owner in California which would explain me being upset. I have no hard feelings and I hope niether do you. this was just a downwind landing and if I were to change anything it would have been to flare higher and you don't have alot of time for debate so stay calm and worry about the problem at hand, I had ten things running through my mind and all of them ended in OH SHIT! Lesson learned and maybe was the difference between limping to the car on my way home to ice my foot, or a 14,000 dollar flight to the E.R.
See you skyward,
Blue Skies

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