happythoughts 0 #1 November 8, 2010 Bill Moyers Worth reading the whole article. The political blame is spread to both sides. The statistics are the important part. QuoteBut then it stopped. Since 1980 the economy has also continued to grow handsomely, but only a fraction at the top have benefitted. The line flattens for the bottom 90% of Americans. Average income went from that $30,941 in 1980 to $31,244 in 2008. Think about that: the average income of Americans increased just $303 dollars in 28 years. That’s wage repression. Another story in the Times caught my eye a few weeks after the one about Connie Brasel and Natalie Ford. The headline read: “Industries Find Surging Profits in Deeper Cuts.” Nelson Schwartz reported that despite falling motorcycle sales, Harley-Davidson profits are soaring – with a second quarter profit of $71 million, more than triple what it earned the previous year. Yet Harley-Davidson has announced plans to cut fourteen hundred to sixteen hundred more jobs by the end of next year; this on top of the 2000 job cut last year. The story note: “This seeming contradiction – falling sales and rising profits – is one reason the mood on Wall Street is so much more buoyant than in households, where pessimism runs deep and unemployment shows few signs of easing.” There you see the two Americas. A buoyant Wall Street; a doleful Main Street. The Connie Brasels and Natalie Fords – left to sink or swim on their own. There were no bailouts for them. Quotend what about the country? Between 2001 and 2008, about 40,000 US manufacturing plants closed. Six million factory jobs have disappeared over the past dozen years, representing one in three manufacturing jobs. Natalie Ford said to the Times what many of us are wondering: “I don’t know how without any good-paying jobs here in the United States people are going to pay for their health care, put their children through school.” One in three. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 November 8, 2010 Quote “I don’t know how without any good-paying jobs here in the United States people are going to pay for their health care, put their children through school.” Actually, the most retarded thing (and yes that IS the right word in this situation) is how the businesses expect people to pay for their goods and services when so many people are out of work. Shipping jobs overseas is awesome for short term profits of individual companies, but it's absolutely ruinous to the country as a whole in the long term.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #3 November 8, 2010 American workers have priced themselves out of job competition? Step 1. I want more pay Step 2. Oh, great. Manufacturers will have to raise prices to cover that. Step 3. Hey! I'm having to pay more for American products! Step 4. Go to Step 1.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #4 November 8, 2010 QuoteAmerican workers have priced themselves out of job competition? Step 1. I want more pay Step 2. Oh, great. Manufacturers will have to raise prices to cover that. Step 3. Hey! I'm having to pay more for American products! Step 4. Go to Step 1. Steps 1 to 4 actually worked pretty fuckin' awesome for the vast majority of the country for the years between 1946 and say, 1989 when the term "outsourcing" first came into vogue. http://scm.ncsu.edu/public/facts/facs060531.htmlquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #5 November 8, 2010 Quote Quote American workers have priced themselves out of job competition? Step 1. I want more pay Step 2. Oh, great. Manufacturers will have to raise prices to cover that. Step 3. Hey! I'm having to pay more for American products! Step 4. Go to Step 1. Steps 1 to 4 actually worked pretty fuckin' awesome for the vast majority of the country for the years between 1946 and say, 1989 when the term "outsourcing" first came into vogue. http://scm.ncsu.edu/public/facts/facs060531.html Higher Terriffs maybe? Bring the jobs back home?Lets see.. Unions lead to high wages high wages lead to outsourcing Outsourcing lead to higher profits Outsourcing lead to unemployment Unemployment lead to buying cheaper ... where does it end? Higher terriffs on imports? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #6 November 8, 2010 Yep, it's time to re-think NAFTA. It may be free trade for the rest of the world, but the deal sucked for America."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #7 November 8, 2010 also with that deal, america is dumping tons and tons of beef, pork, poultry and grains to other countries.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #8 November 8, 2010 QuoteYep, it's time to re-think NAFTA. It may be free trade for the rest of the world, but the deal sucked for America. __________________________________________ Well, I;m Cdn, but my factory closed in 2001. Since then I've worked full-time for about 1 year, filling in for a maternity leave. Doesn;t make it easy. Supposed to be the best earning years of my life....If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #9 November 8, 2010 We are suffering the effects of economic globalization. The cure (if globalization is seen as a problem) is protection in the form of isloation and/or tarriffs. In removing import/export barriers for goods and services, the natural tendency is for countries with a higher standard of living to experience slower growth (or outright contraction) and those with a lower standard of living to experience faster growth (or growth for the first time). Amongst the countries with a high standard, we are far and away the largest economy, and hence we will experience the worst effects of global leveling of the economy. There is really no way around this other than putting up walls and prohibiting commerce with developing countries as they enter the global economy. It's like a payback for the richer countries raping the 3rd world of their natural resources for the last 4 centuries; which was a big part of how they got rich to begin with. They'd sail to some faraway place, plant their flag, declare the land a colony, enslave or slaughter any resistance, sail off with whatever resources they desired; then maybe pour a little salt in the wound by selling them finished goods. Underdevelopment is a process Europe, and later the USA, perfected. Payback is turning out to be a bitch, but the pain should only last a generation or 3." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #10 November 8, 2010 Gee you mean you have not gotten all the benefits promised from those who are enjoying trickling ON you?? Surprise Surprise Surprise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 196 #11 November 8, 2010 Quote Gee you mean you have not gotten all the benefits promised from those who are enjoying trickling ON you?? Surprise Surprise Surprise. I'll put forth that illegal immigration has had a dramatic effect on this area. Now who's doing the trickling?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #12 November 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteAmerican workers have priced themselves out of job competition? Step 1. I want more pay Step 2. Oh, great. Manufacturers will have to raise prices to cover that. Step 3. Hey! I'm having to pay more for American products! Step 4. Go to Step 1. Steps 1 to 4 actually worked pretty fuckin' awesome for the vast majority of the country for the years between 1946 and say, 1989 when the term "outsourcing" first came into vogue. http://scm.ncsu.edu/public/facts/facs060531.html Then I would say that 1989 was the point where it all exploded in our faces. "Global Leveling". Hmmmm...that seems to fit the situation nicely.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #13 November 8, 2010 Quote Quote Gee you mean you have not gotten all the benefits promised from those who are enjoying trickling ON you?? Surprise Surprise Surprise. I'll put forth that illegal immigration has had a dramatic effect on this area. Now who's doing the trickling? Although that probably over-states the proportional negative effect of illegal immigration on the US economy (some negative effects are offset by some positive effects), Mexico and much of the rest of Latin America are perfect examples of "third World" countries whose societies are suffering the long-term effects of centuries of exploitation of their resources and suppression of their economies (and political repression of their people) by European/American imperialism. The "trickling" on the US, in the form of out-of-control illegal immigration of people leaving their suppressed, under-developed economies for the highly developed (formerly imperialistic) economies, is the proverbial chickens coming home to roost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #14 November 8, 2010 Jeremiah Wright ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,354 #15 November 8, 2010 >Higher Terriffs maybe? Bring the jobs back home? That sort of protectionism and restraint on free trade traditionally does far more to harm an economy than to help it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,098 #16 November 8, 2010 QuoteI'll put forth that illegal immigration has had a dramatic effect on this area. No worries, it is an inverse relationship. The worse the US is doing, the less people will want to be there, the lower the illegal immigration numbers will be.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 196 #17 November 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteI'll put forth that illegal immigration has had a dramatic effect on this area. No worries, it is an inverse relationship. The worse the US is doing, the less people will want to be there, the lower the illegal immigration numbers will be.... Naah...our bottom looks like up to them.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #18 November 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'll put forth that illegal immigration has had a dramatic effect on this area. No worries, it is an inverse relationship. The worse the US is doing, the less people will want to be there, the lower the illegal immigration numbers will be.... Naah...our bottom looks like up to them. Is that a quote out of the Jeff Gannon handbook? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #19 November 8, 2010 Quote also with that deal, america is dumping tons and tons of beef, pork, poultry and grains to other countries. Yep, traded thousands of manufacturing jobs so we don't have to worry about subsidies for farmers any more, er, wait a minute....Ya, worked out great, didn't it?"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #20 November 9, 2010 Quotehow the businesses expect people to pay for their goods and services when so many people are out of work. I'm amazed at some local businesses that are still thriving. For instance a place here in NEO is always advertising on the radio (which tells me they have capital). Their product line is quasi-luxury household recreation like pooltables//games/ arcade. Thankfully some people are still buying this stuff and creating/sustaining local jobs. I agree with you that businesses should not expect out-of-work people to buy their products. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #21 November 9, 2010 A book called Capitalism Hits The Fan does a pretty good job of explaining how the US economy was in trouble in the 70's. A very brief explanation of the reasons given in one of his lectures from my notes: 1. Computers/automation reduced the need for people. Accounting software took accounting jobs and robots took manual labor jobs. 2. Outsorcing 3. Women entered the workplace. 4. Immigration both legal and illegal. 5. Population increase 1970 - 203,392,031. 2010 - 308,400,408 All of this meant that the number of workers increased and due to automation, the number of jobs decreased. Superpower status ended with Europe, Japan and China competing with the US. So we had more workers competing for less jobs and with the price being controlled by more competition. This led to lower growth wages and people using debt to try and maintain the same growth in lifestyle. In addition wage fixing by unions raised wages artificially, and to control costs US manufacturing cut costs in materials and design... this allowed the competitors to gain more market share. http://www.capitalismhitsthefan.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZU3wfjtIJY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #22 November 9, 2010 QuoteA book called Capitalism Hits The Fan does a pretty good job of explaining how the US economy was in trouble in the 70's. A very brief explanation of the reasons given in one of his lectures from my notes: 1. Computers/automation reduced the need for people. Accounting software took accounting jobs and robots took manual labor jobs. 2. Outsorcing 3. Women entered the workplace. 4. Immigration both legal and illegal. 5. Population increase 1970 - 203,392,031. 2010 - 308,400,408 All of this meant that the number of workers increased and due to automation, the number of jobs decreased. Superpower status ended with Europe, Japan and China competing with the US. So we had more workers competing for less jobs and with the price being controlled by more competition. This led to lower growth wages and people using debt to try and maintain the same growth in lifestyle. In addition wage fixing by unions raised wages artificially, and to control costs US manufacturing cut costs in materials and design... this allowed the competitors to gain more market share. http://www.capitalismhitsthefan.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZU3wfjtIJY Wholeheartedly agree. What we are experiencing has been a long time in the making. The media likes the quick blame stories because they are more sensational; the ends of the political spectrum likes them because blaming others is their stock in trade. But no one administration and no one event is causing the shrinking of the buying power of the average citizen of the USA. It's really quite simple; we can isolate ourselves and suffer those consequences; or we can allow globalization to play out and deal with that pain instead. You can either have cheap (and often shitty)products by participating in a global economy that allows us to take advantage of really cheap labor elsewhere, or . . . You can put up walls, buy everything from domestic sources and suffer the limitations of everything costing much more and/or being in limited supply. You can not have both. We have embraced capitalism for it's incentives to innovate and expand - can't hardly hold that against those that have learned it so well - or even better. BTW, I'd recommend another read on it - The Future Of Capitalism by Thurow. And The Closing Of The American Mind by Bloom is quite relevant in that it explains the roles of our crisis of intellect and culture of instant gratification." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites