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rhaig

Campus Concealed Carry likely to make a showing in TX this session

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If a maniac with a gun starts shootin' up a school, and students are allowed to carry, and feel the need to fight back, and everyone starts whipping their guns out, what happens when there's 30 people in a hallway shooting at who they think is the shooter, but is just another guy with a gun?



On what do you base your assumption that there would be so many concealed handgun license holders in one area? In the state of Texas, the rate of concealed handgun licensure among individuals age 21-24 (typical college age) is about 0.33%. That means you'd need to collect about 9,000 upperclassmen and grad students in order to find 30 who are licensed to carry a concealed handgun.

Beyond that, why do you assume that ANY concealed handgun license holders would be running around the hallways with their guns drawn? Concealed handgun license holders carry for personal protection, not so that they can act like amateur one-man SWAT teams and go looking for a bad guy at the first sound of gunfire. Applicants are specifically taught not to interject themselves into a situation that does not involve them.

To expect them to be running around, guns drawn, in the midst of a campus shooting is to expect them to defy not only their training but also basic survival instinct.

They'd also be violating state law. License holders must keep their firearms concealed unless and until they encounter an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm. Hearing gunshots in the distance does not constitute an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm.

Finally, concealed handgun license holders, just like police officers, are taught not to make assumptions or rash judgments about a situation they've just encountered. Just as police officers are trained to expect both armed bad guys AND armed good guys--from off-duty or undercover police officers to concealed handgun license holders to victims or bystanders who may have wrestled a gun away from an assailant--in a tactical situation, concealed handgun license holders realize that there may be other lawfully armed citizens taking defensive positions, just like them.

The concern that concealed handgun license holders might actually make a campus shooting worse is voiced in a lot of different ways, none of which stand up to scrutiny.

Sometimes people suggest that having more guns present would lead to more bullets flying and more people being killed in the crossfire. But contrary to what the movies might have us believe, real-world shootouts don’t involve 10 minutes of people diving through doorways and ducking behind desks to reload. A 1997 FBI study found that most shootouts last less than 10 seconds. How could 10 seconds of exchanged gunfire between an assailant and a CHL holder possibly lead to greater loss of life than a 10-minute, uncontested execution-style massacre, like the one that occurred at Virginia Tech?

Others suggest that police might see everyone shooting at each other and be unable to tell the good guys from the bad guys or that police would automatically shoot anyone seen holding a gun. But as I've already explained, neither of those concerns are valid.

The Houston Police Officers' Union, the largest police union in the state of Texas, recently dismissed concerns that concealed handgun license holders might add to the chaos or confusion of a campus shooting and endorsed the legalization of licensed concealed carry on Texas college campuses.

If you're genuinely interested in learning about my organization's side of this issue, I suggest you start by reviewing these three relatively short documents:

Considering Concealed Carry on Texas College Campuses” (a short essay)

Answers to the Most Common Arguments Against Concealed Carry on College Campuses” (an FAQ page)

Concealed Carry in Texas” (a fact sheet)

I don't have a lot of time to debate this issue in a forum not filled with either Texas legislators or Texas voters, but those three documents will provide you with expanded answers, additional information, and source citations.

--W. Scott "Douva" Lewis
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

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Thanks for feeding the troll...



Forgot which account you were logged in on?

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that post was way too long to provide an accurate response...



No it wasn't. Feel free to *try* to disprove any of it.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Thanks for feeding the troll...that post was way too long to provide an accurate response...



Like I said, if you're genuinely interested in learning about my organization's side of this issue, you'll find a nice overview in the documents to which I linked. If, on the other hand, your only interest in what I have to say is as fodder for your own childish responses, you've gotten all you're going to get out of me.

I'll check in again in another three years. In the meantime, anyone who's interested can follow this issue at CampusCarry.com.
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

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If a maniac with a gun starts shootin' up a school, and students are allowed to carry, and feel the need to fight back, and everyone starts whipping their guns out, what happens when there's 30 people in a hallway shooting at who they think is the shooter, but is just another guy with a gun?



David Kopel addresses this question and many others related to CCW at schools. His article was published in the Connecticut Law Review.
I found it easiest to download it first.

http://works.bepress.com/david_kopel/10/

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21 years of age is the minimum by Federal Regulations and all states comply.



Incorrect.

Gun Control Act of 1968 stated:
Minors defined as under the age of eighteen for long guns and handguns, with the exception of Vermont, eligible at age sixteen

You only have to be 21 to buy from a DEALER.

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If a maniac with a gun starts shootin' up a school, and students are allowed to carry, and feel the need to fight back, and everyone starts whipping their guns out, what happens when there's 30 people in a hallway shooting at who they think is the shooter, but is just another guy with a gun?



People would hopefully not just start spraying bullets. So far, in every State that has CHLs this has never happened.

1. The rate of people with a CHL is lower than you might think about 1.5% of the population over the age of 18. About 250k in TX have the license compared to the population over 18 in TX.

2. The rate that they actually CARRY is even lower. I do not have numbers on this, but most people I know with a CHL do not actually carry.

3. Wack jobs tend to go to places where they know people are unarmed. You do not see people go into gun stores, gun shows, ranges, and police stations to start a shooting spree.

4. Survival instinct has shown that even troops tend to hold fire till they feel threatened.

Add all of those up and I think that you will find that if a wackjob starts shooting there most likely will not be a bunch of folks armed and willing to fight. But it only takes one and in #3 maybe just the threat of one to alter the wackjobs course of action.

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2. The rate that they actually CARRY is even lower. I do not have numbers on this, but most people I know with a CHL do not actually carry.



In my unscientific personal experience, I would put the rate at about 2-3% of CHL holders who make a habit of actually carrying.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Gun Control Act of 1968 stated:
Minors defined as under the age of eighteen for long guns and handguns, with the exception of Vermont, eligible at age sixteen

You only have to be 21 to buy from a DEALER.



Yes, you are correct. Possession of handgun is also allowed at age 16 in Utah while at a range.

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2. The rate that they actually CARRY is even lower. I do not have numbers on this, but most people I know with a CHL do not actually carry.



In my unscientific personal experience, I would put the rate at about 2-3% of CHL holders who make a habit of actually carrying.



I was going to suggest the average was less than 5%. Probably less than 1% that carry ALL the time, some that don't ever carry, and some (like me) that carry 5-10% of the time.

I know people that have recently gotten a CHL solely so they can go through the express security line at the state capitol.
--
Rob

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Sheep, wolves and sheepdogs.



In detroit I carry 100% period....

I'm one dangerous fucking sheep...;)


I carry full time, but my situation is a little different than some.

What about security preventing bad people from doing bad things somewhere big? This year I went to the season opener for the Houston Texans. Good game, LOTS of security, which included off-duty HPD to take care of big problems the unarmed security couldn't handle. I was physically frisked by a security guard going into the game. The security guard literally bumped over my pistol and didn't notice. I was thinking I was going to have to show credentials to the HPD officer sitting about 15ft behind the security guard, but the guard didn't even catch my pistol.

What else on what other people did those security guards miss?

In October I went to the State Fair. There they have security guards with wands (metal detectors) searching all who enter. I flashed a badge and the guard didn't stop to check any credentials or anyone with me! Anyone can buy a badge. The guard didn't even check to see if the badge said something stupid or wasn't real! In cases like that, credentials matter more than a piece of metal.

If I'm a "good guy" and I was able to easily "sneak" weapons in to these places (where I can legally carry), what about the bad people who are determined to do harm?
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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If I'm a "good guy" and I was able to easily "sneak" weapons in to these places (where I can legally carry), what about the bad people who are determined to do harm?


I was carrying on the way to a concert once and got wanded at the front gate. They didn't have signs up and was expecting verbal notice and to have to go leave the gun in the car. But the wand never squawked. Really made me wonder about their security.
--
Rob

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If I'm a "good guy" and I was able to easily "sneak" weapons in to these places (where I can legally carry), what about the bad people who are determined to do harm?


I was carrying on the way to a concert once and got wanded at the front gate. They didn't have signs up and was expecting verbal notice and to have to go leave the gun in the car. But the wand never squawked. Really made me wonder about their security.



When it comes to security, people get what they pay for. If they pay $30-50 an hour for off duty officers, then you get a certain level of response. If you're paying $8-10 for none-tcleose security, well, you get $8 worth of security!
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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