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rhaig

Campus Concealed Carry likely to make a showing in TX this session

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my argument still stands



How do you rationalize disarming people that are willing to go through the requirements to get a CHL, but not doing anything about people who illegally carry?

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You hit the fucking nail on the head



So just because you alone don't like something it should be illegal? How about all of those that think skydiving should be illegal?

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my argument still stands



How do you rationalize disarming people that are willing to go through the requirements to get a CHL, but not doing anything about people who illegally carry?

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You hit the fucking nail on the head



So just because you alone don't like something it should be illegal? How about all of those that think skydiving should be illegal?



I've see discussion here referring to the age requirement for possession of a handgun. 21 years of age is the minimum by Federal Regulations and all states comply. As far as carrying a concealed handgun is concered it is up to state law to establish those requirements. Since the late 1980s I've see over 30 states have enacted laws to allow the carrying of concealed handgun. There is much debate over the issue but I have discovered a constant tendency. Those who oppose it have never been able to refute the evidence or logic that shows we are safer when we are armed.

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I've see discussion here referring to the age requirement for possession of a handgun. 21 years of age is the minimum by Federal Regulations and all states comply...



No, minimum age for possession is 18.

Minimum age to purchase from a dealer or to purchase ammunition from a dealer is 21.

A subtle difference, but it's there.

And most states have a minimum age of 21 for a carry permit.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I've see discussion here referring to the age requirement for possession of a handgun. 21 years of age is the minimum by Federal Regulations and all states comply...



No, minimum age for possession is 18.

Minimum age to purchase from a dealer or to purchase ammunition from a dealer is 21.

Sorry my bad, I ment purchase. Possession age and conditions varies from state to state. Utah allows possession at age 16 while at a range.

A subtle difference, but it's there.

And most states have a minimum age of 21 for a carry permit.

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my argument still stands



How do you rationalize disarming people that are willing to go through the requirements to get a CHL, but not doing anything about people who illegally carry?

Quote

You hit the fucking nail on the head



So just because you alone don't like something it should be illegal? How about all of those that think skydiving should be illegal?



Yes. Its called an opinion. I guess Im the only one that has them.....

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so in one post, you're calling it your "argument" in another your opinion.

An argument is usually backed up by fact or something at least a little influential and impartial.

Opinions? Well, everyone has them, and they all stink.

So which is it? Are you trying poorly to make an argument, or stating an opinion?
--
Rob

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It's been a while since anyone here has been able to get under my skin. Don't flatter yourself. It's been clear for a while (to anyone paying attention) that you're just stirring shit. At least you finally owned up to it.

call your opinion whatever you want. It doesn't mean we'll pay any more attention to you.
--
Rob

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Wow, I know I'm going to regret this.. :)

I used to work at a college. Not a big one, but we had about 1000 undergrads (about 750 in campus housing, about 250 in off-campus apartments, commuting, etc). Our campus safety department would have been outgunned by Barney Fife, and most of the time outnumbered by him, too. There was one campus "cop" on duty at any one time, usually, and a dispatcher. None were armed.

The local town PD was not in much better shape. Their department might have 3-4 officers on during the day, not counting the Chief & the office folks, and the only "backup" to them would have been the County's sheriff (20-30 minutes away once called) or the State Police (15-20 minutes away, once called). (admittedly, if the town PD were involved at any time of the day or night, they had a lot more tools, and by "tools" I mean "firepower," at their disposal, from sidearm to M-4 retrieved from the trunk of the cruiser.)

We practiced lock down drills occasionally, and the "active shooter" discussion usually got rolling after yet another campus shooting happened someplace (most notably VT and NIU) else. Those discussions petered out once the shooting news rolled out of the headlines and nothing was really done by our administration. (But let me tell you: the hue and cry and outright breast beating by the faculty when the subject of arming the campus safety department came up would have made you think that the administration was suggesting stationing the National Guard on campus to quell insurrection, too. One of the most adamant profs really made an about face on the subject following the NIU shooting, as he was an NIU alumnus. Funny how that works..)

Several of us in my department were ex-military and owned firearms. We often spoke of our frustration as legitimate firearm owners (and in one case, licensed to carry concealed) that in the event of "the shit hitting the fan" there would be little or nothing we could do except cower under our desks and hope like hell a locked door was a sufficient deterrent. Honestly, it was a little disquieting to know that even the campus safety people were being told "run".

Would concealed carry make much of a difference? Who knows, its hard to tell, and every situation is different. 1 armed individual out of, say, 100 might have made a difference in the Virginia Tech shooting, for example. Then again, maybe not.

A friend of mine lives in Salt Lake City. His girlfriend's daughter's classmate was killed in the Trolley Square mall shooting spree in 2007. A shooting spree that was partly blunted by an armed citizen (an off duty cop from a nearby town, but it could have been Joe Citizen, too). Kind of puts things in perspective when it directly affects people you know, too.

Honestly, I don't think every Tom, Dick or Mary should be armed on a college campus. Not every concealed carry person is necessarily capable of actually responding to an active shooter scenario in that kind of a place, and doing so in a beneficial way. Students, in particular, the majority of whom are under the age of 21, should probably NOT be armed in the dorms. I'm sure there are ways it could be done that would be safe for everybody, but at a certain point is a diminishing benefit versus the cost and complication, not to mention the limited number of students, age-wise, who would qualify to carry who would live in the dorms, would make that just a total non-starter.

Now, armed carry by qualified students during the day (ie. commuter or off campus students who might be sufficiently inclined) is a definite "maybe."

Staff & faculty? I'd say that with appropriate qualification (ie. an active shooter course once a year, maybe a drill 2-3 times a year with the local PD, some combination of the above), that could probably work. The "swamp Yankee" guy who did all our plumbing on campus, for example, was ex-military and if I recall correctly, he was an MP. Great candidate.

Last place I worked we had a very adamant no-firearms policy, and I was cool with that (I was behind two or three locked doors from the lobby, so anybody with ill intent would have to come find me..). Earlier this year, they moved our HR manager to an office literally right next to the front door, and whilst moaning and complaining about that, she said "Oh, yeah, great, put HR right next to the front door so when some disgruntled ex-employee comes in here shooting up the place, we're first.." (The receptionist, who had to sit in the lobby right there, every day, was totally horrified at this woman's statement. I pointed out to the HR manager that her new office was incentive to avoid pissing off the ex-employees...)

I think Utah has the right idea. Gun-free zones like college campuses are tantamount to throwing a big sign up that says "Large numbers of undefended people in one spot. Bring lots of ammo." (the argument that most shooters are associated with the individual campus is moot: of course they are, doesn't make the unarmed individuals contained therein any less unarmed and available for assault.)
NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

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Wow, I know I'm going to regret this.. :)

I used to work at a college. Not a big one, but we had about 1000 undergrads (about 750 in campus housing, about 250 in off-campus apartments, commuting, etc). Our campus safety department would have been outgunned by Barney Fife, and most of the time outnumbered by him, too. There was one campus "cop" on duty at any one time, usually, and a dispatcher. None were armed.


The local town PD was not in much better shape. Their department might have 3-4 officers on during the day, not counting the Chief & the office folks, and the only "backup" to them would have been the County's sheriff (20-30 minutes away once called) or the State Police (15-20 minutes away, once called). (admittedly, if the town PD were involved at any time of the day or night, they had a lot more tools, and by "tools" I mean "firepower," at their disposal, from sidearm to M-4 retrieved from the trunk of the cruiser.)

We practiced lock down drills occasionally, and the "active shooter" discussion usually got rolling after yet another campus shooting happened someplace (most notably VT and NIU) else. Those discussions petered out once the shooting news rolled out of the headlines and nothing was really done by our administration. (But let me tell you: the hue and cry and outright breast beating by the faculty when the subject of arming the campus safety department came up would have made you think that the administration was suggesting stationing the National Guard on campus to quell insurrection, too. One of the most adamant profs really made an about face on the subject following the NIU shooting, as he was an NIU alumnus. Funny how that works..)

Several of us in my department were ex-military and owned firearms. We often spoke of our frustration as legitimate firearm owners (and in one case, licensed to carry concealed) that in the event of "the shit hitting the fan" there would be little or nothing we could do except cower under our desks and hope like hell a locked door was a sufficient deterrent. Honestly, it was a little disquieting to know that even the campus safety people were being told "run".

Would concealed carry make much of a difference? Who knows, its hard to tell, and every situation is different. 1 armed individual out of, say, 100 might have made a difference in the Virginia Tech shooting, for example. Then again, maybe not.

A friend of mine lives in Salt Lake City. His girlfriend's daughter's classmate was killed in the Trolley Square mall shooting spree in 2007. A shooting spree that was partly blunted by an armed citizen (an off duty cop from a nearby town, but it could have been Joe Citizen, too). Kind of puts things in perspective when it directly affects people you know, too.

Honestly, I don't think every Tom, Dick or Mary should be armed on a college campus. Not every concealed carry person is necessarily capable of actually responding to an active shooter scenario in that kind of a place, and doing so in a beneficial way. Students, in particular, the majority of whom are under the age of 21, should probably NOT be armed in the dorms. I'm sure there are ways it could be done that would be safe for everybody, but at a certain point is a diminishing benefit versus the cost and complication, not to mention the limited number of students, age-wise, who would qualify to carry who would live in the dorms, would make that just a total non-starter.

Now, armed carry by qualified students during the day (ie. commuter or off campus students who might be sufficiently inclined) is a definite "maybe."

Staff & faculty? I'd say that with appropriate qualification (ie. an active shooter course once a year, maybe a drill 2-3 times a year with the local PD, some combination of the above), that could probably work. The "swamp Yankee" guy who did all our plumbing on campus, for example, was ex-military and if I recall correctly, he was an MP. Great candidate.

Last place I worked we had a very adamant no-firearms policy, and I was cool with that (I was behind two or three locked doors from the lobby, so anybody with ill intent would have to come find me..). Earlier this year, they moved our HR manager to an office literally right next to the front door, and whilst moaning and complaining about that, she said "Oh, yeah, great, put HR right next to the front door so when some disgruntled ex-employee comes in here shooting up the place, we're first.." (The receptionist, who had to sit in the lobby right there, every day, was totally horrified at this woman's statement. I pointed out to the HR manager that her new office was incentive to avoid pissing off the ex-employees...)

I think Utah has the right idea. Gun-free zones like college campuses are tantamount to throwing a big sign up that says "Large numbers of undefended people in one spot. Bring lots of ammo." (the argument that most shooters are associated with the individual campus is moot: of course they are, doesn't make the unarmed individuals contained therein any less unarmed and available for assault.)



I I think you've made some valid points. One, the response of law enforcement often is inadequate. Not that they are unwilling, just ill prepared or overwhelmed. Also, they respond to incidents which have already taken place or are ongoing. So, even with a very efficient response they aare not going to be able to prevent many of the deaths in a mass shooting incident on a campus. The vast majority of the time they respond to anything, it is usually after the fact. A couple points of disagree is trying to establish some sort of skill level, for campus carry, above and beyond that required to obtain the permit in the first place. Another point about responding to the incident. A citizen with a permit is not a sworn officer of the law and has no duty to act in that situation. If a civilian happens to be there when the assault takes place and acts in defense of themselves or others, I understand.

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I I think you've made some valid points. One, the response of law enforcement often is inadequate. Not that they are unwilling, just ill prepared or overwhelmed. Also, they respond to incidents which have already taken place or are ongoing. So, even with a very efficient response they aare not going to be able to prevent many of the deaths in a mass shooting incident on a campus. The vast majority of the time they respond to anything, it is usually after the fact. A couple points of disagree is trying to establish some sort of skill level, for campus carry, above and beyond that required to obtain the permit in the first place. Another point about responding to the incident. A citizen with a permit is not a sworn officer of the law and has no duty to act in that situation. If a civilian happens to be there when the assault takes place and acts in defense of themselves or others, I understand.



Good point. I was throwing the qualification thing out there as a potential "force multiplier," but its surely not a necessity or even a realistic requirement.

And you're right: its not like you can say "yeah, you can carry on this campus, but only if you meet these 4 requirements.." sorta defeats the purpose right out of the box. Part of the deterrence aspect involves not knowing who or how many might be armed.

Remember kids, "An armed society is a polite society."
NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

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Good point. I was throwing the qualification thing out there as a potential "force multiplier," but its surely not a necessity or even a realistic requirement.

And you're right: its not like you can say "yeah, you can carry on this campus, but only if you meet these 4 requirements.." sorta defeats the purpose right out of the box. Part of the deterrence aspect involves not knowing who or how many might be armed.

Remember kids, "An armed society is a polite society."



I agree totally with you. Don't get me wrong on the training issue. I believe everyone should be able to handle a firearm to get the permit, I'm just against making things more restrictive than they are.

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It's nice to know that, despite not having posted in almost three years, I can still inspire an eight-page thread on DZ.com.

W. Scott "Douva" Lewis
Texas Legislative Director, Students for Concealed Carry on Campus
Editor, CampusCarry.com
http://www.TexasStudentsCarry.com
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

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If a maniac with a gun starts shootin' up a school, and students are allowed to carry, and feel the need to fight back, and everyone starts whipping their guns out, what happens when there's 30 people in a hallway shooting at who they think is the shooter, but is just another guy with a gun?

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If a maniac with a gun starts shootin' up a school, and students are allowed to carry, and feel the need to fight back, and everyone starts whipping their guns out, what happens when there's 30 people in a hallway shooting at who they think is the shooter, but is just another guy with a gun?



that's the same argument the anti-concealed carry people had 15 years ago. "the streets will be like the OK-corral. They will run with blood!!" didn't happen.

I don't know what concealed carry class you've taken, but in mine, we talked about identifying threats. Also discussed what to do when the cops show up to avoid getting shot.

I don't know your level of experience with firearms, but you sound like a knee-jerk gun-grabber. (at least your comment is typical of that type)
--
Rob

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If a maniac with a gun starts shootin' up a school, and students are allowed to carry, and feel the need to fight back, and everyone starts whipping their guns out, what happens when there's 30 people in a hallway shooting at who they think is the shooter, but is just another guy with a gun?



and would if sharks with fricken lasers mounted to their heads attack in the library?

Let's stick to reality. A considerable portion of school shootings are stopped by non cops with guns, and CCW permits exist in the millions. How many mistaken identity shootings are you aware of?

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