Kanzlerin Merkel: Multiculturalism A Failure in Germany

[christelsabine 1]

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Sorry your panties are in a knot. I stand by my post.

No, Andy9o8, "they" are not as I don't really care about your post.

I know what to expect when posting here.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Multiculturalism works fine on paper but is proving to be failing on many fronts in the real world. I see it's failures where I live and I have a friend in Spain who tells me about the failings in that country (and we know many other European nations are battling with the same issues). This is NOT a German issue. It is NOT racism, but instead it is a clash of cultures where new comers to the various countries make little attempt to adapt to life in their host countries and instead demand special interest favors from the host countries.

I support what Angela Merkel says. It's not politically correct, but it is reality.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[jakee 1,254]

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I support what Angela Merkel says. It's not politically correct, but it is reality.

What do you think should be done?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[happythoughts 0]

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I support what Angela Merkel says. It's not politically correct, but it is reality.

What do you think should be done?

In the US, studies have shown a direct relation between
the inability to speak English and the difficulty of
success in higher education. Also, most employment
will require command of the English language.

In recognition of that, since the 60's, there has been
a variety of programs to help English Language Learners (ELL).

One integral part is to gain a functional knowledge of
the core language of the host country.
Given the broad range of immigrant languages, it is
impossible to guarantee employment when commerce
is predominantly done in the core host country language.

[billvon 2,384]

>I didn't realize we were talking cuisine..

And language, and family structure, and morality, and music, and popular art. Culture, in other words.

[billvon 2,384]

>Multiculturalism works fine on paper but is proving to be failing on
>many fronts in the real world.

Agreed. Like any social structure, it works in some cases, fails in others. Here in the US we have a mix of multiculturalism and social integration; both excel in some things, don't work in others. The Chinatowns, Little Italys, barrios etc in most large cities are examples of multiculturalism working well; they serve as a place for people of one culture to be in familiar surroundings, and for people of other cultures to learn a little more (even if it's only a style of food, or a place to practice a language.) Racially segregated gangs are an example where it fails; in those cases, cultures provide artificial separations that keep Hispanic gangs separate from black gangs (for example.)

[turtlespeed 212]

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>Have we?

Good question. Perhaps you could stop by a local pub and contemplate it over a good Belgian beer, a margarita, or a Guinness. Have a frankfurter, fried dumplings or some nachos while you think about it.

Why would I? I buy things made in the US.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,384]

> I buy things made in the US.

?? Dude, all those things ARE made in the US (with the exception of Guinness.) That's what being multicultural is all about. Heck, the "prototypical" US meal seems to be a hamburger (named after Hamburg, Germany) with french fries.

[happythoughts 0]

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So the preferable alternatives are isolationism or social engineering?

Neither. I think her point was that immigrants should make more of an effort to learn the language of their host country so they can better help themselves.

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She said too little had been required of immigrants in the past and repeated her usual line that they should learn German in order to get by in school and have opportunities on the labour market.

That is what I got from actually reading what she said.
I don't know what others are rambling on about.

She wasn't talking about the failure of everyone to
appreciate the others music, food, or clothing.
She was discussing their ability to function on
a basic level. Two things - get an education, get a job.

Interesting how people are criticizing her for things she didn't say.
She seems to make sense and have minimal expectations.

[turtlespeed 212]

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> I buy things made in the US.

?? Dude, all those things ARE made in the US (with the exception of Guinness.) That's what being multicultural is all about. Heck, the "prototypical" US meal seems to be a hamburger (named after Hamburg, Germany) with french fries.

if it says made in USA and it is someting like Blood Pudding - I don't buy it.

If it says Made in USA and it is Called Belgian Beer - I don't buy it.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,384]

>If it says Made in USA and it is Called Belgian Beer - I don't buy it.

Do you eat hamburgers or french fries?

[turtlespeed 212]

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>If it says Made in USA and it is Called Belgian Beer - I don't buy it.

Do you eat hamburgers or french fries?

I eat Double Doubles animal style, Quarter Pounders, Whataburgers, Jumbo Jacks and Fat Burgers.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,384]

>I eat Double Doubles animal style, Quarter Pounders, Whataburgers,
>Jumbo Jacks and Fat Burgers.

So you do eat hamburgers, as I suspected. And I have zero doubt that you eat and drink a host of things with origins in other countries, as most Americans do.

Good thing they were there to share their cultures with us, eh?

[turtlespeed 212]

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>I eat Double Doubles animal style, Quarter Pounders, Whataburgers,
>Jumbo Jacks and Fat Burgers.

So you do eat hamburgers, as I suspected. And I have zero doubt that you eat and drink a host of things with origins in other countries, as most Americans do.

Good thing they were there to share their cultures with us, eh?

No I don't eat hamburgers.

I listed the things that I ate that resemble what you are trying to equate to. None of whice have the word Hamburger or Hamburg in them.

If you order Coke Classic, would you expect to be served a Mountain Dew, or a Coffee.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,384]

>No I don't eat hamburgers.

It would be fun to watch you order french fries:

"I'll have an order of fries."
"That's one order of french fries and . . ."
"No, I said an order of fries. I don't eat french fries."
"Uh, OK. All we have are french fries."
"Then take them off my order! I only eat fries."
"Well - suppose I just put you down for an order of fries and we'll hold the french."
"Now you're talking!"

[rushmc 18]

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I support what Angela Merkel says. It's not politically correct, but it is reality.

What do you think should be done?

People want to move into any country they adapt and conform to that culture.

They can keep their traditions alive themselves if they wish and that should be respected

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 212]

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>No I don't eat hamburgers.

It would be fun to watch you order french fries:

"I'll have an order of fries."
"That's one order of french fries and . . ."
"No, I said an order of fries. I don't eat french fries."
"Uh, OK. All we have are french fries."
"Then take them off my order! I only eat fries."
"Well - suppose I just put you down for an order of fries and we'll hold the french."
"Now you're talking!"

Freedom Fries.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[masterblaster72 0]

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The "other countries did it, too" excuse is highly lame.

Any comparison between Nazi Germany and modern-day Germany is lamer.

Germany admits its faults from the past and has enacted legislation against forming any hate-based political groups.

The Turkish population in Germany is the main subject of Merkel's speech. The Turkish government (which wants to become part of the EU), and the great majority of Turkish people, still deny their own genocide, and continue to antagonize Armenians to this day. That's far more intolerant than the Germany, which has allowed the Turkish community to grow in the last 50 years.

If you stand by your post and have such a valid point, then please share your parallels between Nazi Germany and today's Germany. All I see from you and quade is "They're Germans, they have a Nazi past, and therefore don't have a right to say anything of the sort" while completely ignoring what Merkel is getting at.

This is Germany's country and they have the right to speak their minds. Good on Merkel for not giving a toss what you or I think.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Liemberg 0]

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Glad we succeeded where Germany failed.

Then again, the USA were not 'paralysed' when taking realistic measures. Germany OTOH, as a nation is to some extent; over there lot's of realistic measurements were not taken because of their 'guilt for the Holocaust'... (Someone already mentioned Godwin? OK, lets move on)
AFAIK, when becoming a US citizen you are supposed to take a US citizenship test and applicants must also satisfy other specific requirements of naturalization to successfully obtain U.S. citizenship. In Germany (and for the most part also in the rest of Europe) it is sufficient to stay there legally long enough.
Also, a lot of newcomers in the EU were entitled to benefit from all sorts of affirmative action policies, full social services for anybody that managed to get in with a legal status, etcetera, etcetera.
One tends to forget, but in many aspects living in a country like Germany on the bottom side of social stratification might be preferable over living a middle class life in rural Anatolia in terms of income security, health services, educational opportunities etcetera.
Furthermore, while the US has been taking up immigrants from all over the world almost since the Pilgrim Fathers landed, Europe hasn't.
Last but not least, the vast immigration into Europe in the second part of the 20th century started with people that were suppose to stay for a limited period, working, making money and then return to their place of origin.
That didn't happen and the combination of hosts-on-a-guilt-trip and guests-'misbehaving' / overstaying their welcome was IMO rather toxic. (i.e. historically the newcomers had no concept of the government chosen by the people and therefore 'their government' but much more they came from a culture where political freedom and human rights were non-exist)
Having the prime minister of their original country say things like 'our minarets are our bayonets, our women's headscarfs are our flags' (as in 'planted on conquered foreign soil') and reminding the immigrants that in his opinion they are first and foremost Turkish Muslims that just happen to live in Germany doesn't really help either...
Both Turkey and Morocco 'claim' their subjects that emigrated to Europe; Turkey for instance regards male German nationals born from Turkish descent as eligible for being drafted into the Turkish army (or pay a sum of $ 6000 to get out of it), both countries state that it is impossible to give up the original Turkish or Moroccan citizenship even for descendants born on foreign soil, Morocco did provide Dutch municipalities with a list of acceptable names for Moroccans, etcetera.
The rationale behind all this may well be that a substantial part of both nations national income is in fact made in Europe and then imported - but it really doesn't help integration.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[metalslug 31]

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Germany's attempt to create a multicultural society has "utterly failed"

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That's too bad. Glad we succeeded where Germany failed.

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Have we?

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Good question. Perhaps you could stop by a local pub and contemplate it over a good Belgian beer, a margarita, or a Guinness. Have a frankfurter, fried dumplings or some nachos while you think about it.

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I didn't realize we were talking cuisine..

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And language, and family structure, and morality, and music, and popular art. Culture, in other words.

....and yet in several posts you continue to provide food examples as evidence of multiculturalism ?

Even in the darkest years of South African bigotry and isolation I still grew up with nearly all the foods you have mentioned, including nachos, but I had to travel to Mexico 20 years later to meet Mexicans for the first time.
Would you suggest that Germans should eat more Turkish cuisine to show support for multiculturalism ?

With regard to "...language, and family structure, and morality, and music, and popular art. Culture, in other words.";
If the language is simplistic and lacks adequate expression, if the art is not aesthetically pleasing, if the music is unpleasant, if the morality and family structure is abhorrently 3rd world in nature;
Would a reasonable person be expected to compromise on some of those areas in order to be "multicultural", despite their inner preferences ?
How much would you compromise on ? ...or should I just pass you some more nachos ?

[SkyDekker 1,121]

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Not looking to win, just sharing my viewpoint...Nazi Germany and today's Germany are two completely different historical contexts with not much to compare.

Is it? I am not so sure that is true.

Weak economy.....check
Desire to blame and demonize others......check

And this isn't just germany either. This sentiment is large, and growing, in many parts of Western Europe.

[flusspirat 0]

"Weak economy.....check"

oh really?

you better recheck...

[billvon 2,384]

>Even in the darkest years of South African bigotry and isolation I still
>grew up with nearly all the foods you have mentioned, including nachos, but
>I had to travel to Mexico 20 years later to meet Mexicans for the first time.

Do you think your experiences would have been a little more rounded had you met Mexicans earlier in your life?

>Would you suggest that Germans should eat more Turkish cuisine to show
>support for multiculturalism ?

No, that's integration, not multiculturalism.

>If the language is simplistic and lacks adequate expression, if the art is
>not aesthetically pleasing, if the music is unpleasant, if the morality and
>family structure is abhorrently 3rd world in nature; Would a reasonable
>person be expected to compromise on some of those areas in order to be
>"multicultural", despite their inner preferences ?

No, and no one expects them to. People eat hamburgers and listen to rock and roll not because they wish to support Germany or the UK, but because they like them. That's the advantage of integrating other cultures into our own - more choices.

[Tokter 0]

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>Would you suggest that Germans should eat more Turkish cuisine to show
>support for multiculturalism ?

No, that's integration, not multiculturalism.

By the amount of mexican food that is available here, they must be some of the best integrated people ever.

[christelsabine 1]

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Not looking to win, just sharing my viewpoint...Nazi Germany and today's Germany are two completely different historical contexts with not much to compare.

Is it? I am not so sure that is true.

Weak economy.....check
Desire to blame and demonize others......check

And this isn't just germany either. This sentiment is large, and growing, in many parts of Western Europe.

"Desire to blame and demonize others" (......check) ...

means what, f.e.??

I'd really love to meet the *checker*

dudeist skydiver # 3105