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rhaig

Man Killed by Mexican Pirates on Texas Lake

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>Border Patrol is the single most underfunded and unsupported agency in
>all of American law enforcement.

I agree that they are underfunded.

>Or more recently, what do you think might have happened to the agents
>who shot the teenager at the bridge underpass earlier this year if there
>hadn't been video?

I suspect there would have been a lot more stink over it - but the same outcome would likely have resulted.

Now, what do you think the outcome of that case would have been if the border patrol agent who shot and killed Hernandez had "neglected" to file a report about it, forgot to tell his supervisor about it, and then lied about it later?

The Ramos and Compean case is a sad one because they did absolutely nothing wrong during the events that led up to the shooting. It was their actions _after_ they shot Hernandez that got them in trouble. (And for the record I think their sentence was way too harsh; a temporary suspension for not following procedure would have been far more appropriate and a lot more fair.)

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>What seems strange to me is, they can shoot at us but if we return fire,
>we go to jail!

I agree it's an issue, but I don't see the "go to jail" part -

========
U.S. border agents exchange fire with gunmen in Mexico during drug seizure

(U.S Border Patrol agents recently exchanged fire with unknown gunmen in Mexico. According to the FBI, violence has declined along the border since 2008.)

Tuesday, September 14th 2010, 1:03 PM

Gunfire was exchanged across the Mexican border over the weekend, when Border Patrol agents were shot at while seizing a drug shipment, the Customs and Border Protection agency said on Tuesday.

The incident occurred on September 11 around 7:40 a.m. near Mission, Texas, a CBP spokesperson told the Daily News.

"Several Border Patrol Agents returned fire after being fired upon multiple times from the Mexican side," the agency said in a statement.

It is unclear who fired at the agents, or how many were involved. Authorities were in the process of seizing a shipment of marijuana when the gunfire broke out.

No Border Patrol agents were injured.
=========

Border patrol has often fired across the border, and have killed people in the process. I don't know of any who have gone to jail.



I should've been more clear... I was referring to non-law enforcement people... civilians.


Chuck

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>I should've been more clear... I was referring to non-law enforcement
>people... civilians.

OK. I'm not sure I understand what you mean, then. Do you mean that a landowner in Texas can legally defend himself against US citizens shooting at him, but can't legally defend himself against Mexicans shooting at him?

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>I should've been more clear... I was referring to non-law enforcement
>people... civilians.

OK. I'm not sure I understand what you mean, then. Do you mean that a landowner in Texas can legally defend himself against US citizens shooting at him, but can't legally defend himself against Mexicans shooting at him?



To the best of my knowledge, that's correct.


Chuck

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>To the best of my knowledge, that's correct.

What are the applicable laws that cover that?



I've been informed that the Border Patrol or Sheriff be called. I do know, one rancher here in Texas held some illegals at gunpoint and in turn was charged with false imprisonment. You raise a good question. I'm going to do some searching of the laws in regards to this.


Chuck

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> I do know, one rancher here in Texas held some illegals at gunpoint
>and in turn was charged with false imprisonment.

OK - but I would guess that would be true whether he was holding illegal immigrants or other ranchers at gunpoint. It sounded like people were saying the laws were different for illegal immigrants.

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Make it look like a run of the mill tourist boat... and have the damn thing armed to the teeth... the pirates upen up.. and just fucking waste them... problem solved.



Would you suggest this boat goes into Mexico first...like the people in the story did?

This isn't a case of Mexican violence entering the US. It is a case of Americans entering Mexico illegally.

Many here believe Mexicans, illegally entering the US, should be shot on sight. What's good for the goose...and all that stuff.


_____________________________________________

Well, I don't know about this specific case, but I do know that the major company my wife works for has curtailed ALL travel to Mexico after some of its workers, legally in the country, were stopped and robbed by masked men with automatic weapons while driving back to the plant from dinner. Others are being shot at on major roads while legally in the country. It is a crisis situation.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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> I do know, one rancher here in Texas held some illegals at gunpoint
>and in turn was charged with false imprisonment.

OK - but I would guess that would be true whether he was holding illegal immigrants or other ranchers at gunpoint. It sounded like people were saying the laws were different for illegal immigrants.



That seems to be the case! In my search, all I could find was cases where illegals who had confrontations with land owners, suedthe land owners for 'damages' and WON! Some of the illegals had fairly long rap sheets, also. From that, I would assume the laws ARE different for illegals.


Chuck

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I would assume the laws ARE different for illegals.



I suspect the application of the law is different.



As I mentioned to Billvon, it seems that way. In my search, I found several cases where illegals sued land-owners because the land-owner held them for authorities. One illegal recieved $77,000.00 in 'damages'. Noone took into account that the illegal had a very long rap-sheet! Sounds to me like too many 'liberal' judges!


Chuck

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>ACT OF WAR!

?? If US border patrol shot at a Mexican illegal immigrant, would you consider that an act of war?

>But that sack 'o' garbage in the White House needs to do something
>radical about this situation, RIGHT NOW.

Well, he just sent National Guard troops to the border. I suppose other options would be to make leaving the US without authorization a federal crime, or invading Mexico.



Yeah. UNARMED National Guard troops.
Now of he posted a dozen armed patrol boats on Falcon with .50 cal machine guns on their bow I might believe he's actually done something.
Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

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>:(>:(>:(>:(

ACT OF WAR!

>:(>:(>:(>:(


Okay, maybe we don't go to war with Mexico. But that sack 'o' garbage in the White House needs to do something radical about this situation, RIGHT NOW.



I wonder why that pussy from Texas didn't do anything about this as it grew worse and worse in the last 10 years


Leave it to an America hating liberal to blame George Bush. STFU
Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

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Chuck,

Can you provide a link to articles about the incidents you mention, or the key words you used for a Google search? I searched with "illegals sue rancher" "Texas", but what I got was the following:
In Arizona, a group of illegals sued a rancher for $35 million for violation of their civil rights. The court ruled that the rancher had a right to detain them and turn them over to the Border Patrol, so the illegals lost. However, they were awarded $78,000 for "infliction of emotional distress"; apparently for allowing his dogs to attack the group, or repeatedly threatening to do so (the article wasn't clear on the specifics) while waiting for the Border Patrol to arrive.

In Texas, a rancher invited an anti-immigration group, "Ranch Rescue", to patrol his ranch. Ranch Rescue detained an illegal couple who were crossing the land, but then beat the woman and allowed their Rottweiler to chew up the man. The illegals successfully sued Ranch Rescue and the rancher, and obtained title to 70 acres from the rancher. The rancher was also charged, and convicted, of being a felon in possession of a firearm.

I did see reference to another case in Texas (but I didn't find a real link to a credible news agency, just blog chatter) about a case where illegals successfully sued after they were detained, but in that case it seems the issue again wasn't that they were detained, but rather that they were beaten, attacked by dogs, robbed, had their shoes taken, then they were forced to march barefoot for several miles through rough desert to a road where the Border Patrol took custody of the group.

It seems that in each of these cases, landowners or their proxies detained illegal immigrants on their land, which they are allowed to do, but then decided to administer a little "frontier justice" in the form of beatings, dog attacks, repeated threats of death or severe harm, and sometimes relieving the illegals of their money. While I really do understand the frustration that these ranchers must feel at the damage to their property etc, they do not have the right to beat, torture, or rob trespassers. It seems to me that the reality here is not that illegals have different (or more) rights than citizens do, but rather that when it comes to civil rights they have the same rights. Practically speaking, how could they not? If you say it is OK for ranchers to beat or rob trespassers because they are not US citizens, then don't you also say it wouldn't be illegal to rob or beat tourists on Miami Beach, just because they aren't US citizens?

Unfortunately, it is the nature of the US judicial system that anyone can file a lawsuit, there are generally lawyers willing to take the case, and it costs money (maybe more than a landowner can afford) to defend against the suit. So the fact that suits are filed doesn't mean much in terms of what the law says is allowed or not allowed, you have to look at the rulings.

Again, if you have a link to any case where any landowner has been successfully sued for simply detaining trespassers and holding them until law enforcement can come and pick them up, I'd really like to see it. Thanks.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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In my search, I found several cases where illegals sued land-owners because the land-owner held them for authorities. One illegal recieved $77,000.00 in 'damages'. Noone took into account that the illegal had a very long rap-sheet! Sounds to me like too many 'liberal' judges!



Chuck, the only parts of any court witness's prior criminal record that are admissible to impeach his credibility are (a) actual convictions (not just charges) (and usually those that are no older than about 7 to 10 years), and (b) crimes having to deal with honesty, such as theft, robbery, forgery or perjury. This is a basic rule of evidence which every judge in the country knows, and usually honors - even the most conservative ones!

So you're just going to have to look elsewhere to get in a free bash at "liberal judges".

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I would assume the laws ARE different for illegals.



I suspect the application of the law is different.



As I mentioned to Billvon, it seems that way. In my search, I found several cases where illegals sued land-owners because the land-owner held them for authorities. One illegal recieved $77,000.00 in 'damages'. Noone took into account that the illegal had a very long rap-sheet! Sounds to me like too many 'liberal' judges!


Chuck



I am really looking forward to the links to the factually correct, well documented cases of tort abuse Chuck writes about.

For the record, my results in searching concur with GeorgiaDon's results.

RWC bullshit rearing it's ugly head from some weird blog? Faux News content? What will the links go to? I am really looking forward to this.

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I would assume the laws ARE different for illegals.



I suspect the application of the law is different.



As I mentioned to Billvon, it seems that way. In my search, I found several cases where illegals sued land-owners because the land-owner held them for authorities. One illegal recieved $77,000.00 in 'damages'. Noone took into account that the illegal had a very long rap-sheet! Sounds to me like too many 'liberal' judges!


Chuck



I am really looking forward to the links to the factually correct, well documented cases of tort abuse Chuck writes about.

For the record, my results in searching concur with GeorgiaDon's results.

RWC bullshit rearing it's ugly head from some weird blog? Faux News content? What will the links go to? I am really looking forward to this.



Just wait . . . the headlines will be here soon enough. Is that ok with you?
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Leave it to an America hating liberal to blame George Bush. STFU



Your debating and logic skills are surely without equal. I'm duly impressed.



Impressing you is not a difficult thing to do.

Well, your avatar is indeed impressive.

Your disdain for the first amendment is less so.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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Leave it to an America hating liberal to blame George Bush. STFU



Your debating and logic skills are surely without equal. I'm duly impressed.



Impressing you is not a difficult thing to do.

Well, your avatar is indeed impressive.

Your disdain for the first amendment is less so.

Don



You are chastising him for chastising another about what was written on a forum, and an idea that was expressed.

Are you Pot or Kettle today?
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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I agree that they are underfunded.



sure, everything is underfunded - if we just gave more money to everything, then all the problems are fixed

maybe it's more about which laws are enforced, vs who's hands are tied, vs a lot of other things than just $$$$

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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sure, everything is underfunded - if we just gave more money to everything, then all the problems are fixed



Spoken just like a Liberal Community Organizer;)
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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