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normiss

Is Islam the new Jew?

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Not in Berlin, but in 1995 Christian Serbs killed more than 8,000 Muslim non combatants because they were Muslim in Srebrenica. Thats nearly three times the number that died on 9/11.



Really? That's the best you can do? The fact that in the middle of a civil war with acts of genocide on both sides, in the former Yugoslavia, that's your justification for claiming America is like Nazi Germany? Just go home. You're not helping Andy in the least and you're making his (interesting and legitemate) argument look silly.
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I wasn't attemptingto use it to argue that the USA is becoming like Nazi Germany. But its interesting that you believe that it is...

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interesting and legitemate argument



So as you have just confessed that you believe that Andy's argument is indeed ligitimate I say that that the post did help after all, eh?
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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I wasn't attemptingto use it to argue that the USA is becoming like Nazi Germany. But its interesting that you believe that it is...



Go ahead and find a post where I said the US is becoming like Nazi Germany. Good luck with that one. If you bothered to read my posts, you'd see that I was disagreeing with another poster who made that comparison. Reading comprehension is important to a written discussion, afterall.

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So as you have just confessed that you believe that Andy's argument is indeed ligitimate I say that that the post did help after all, eh?



Andy and I have always agreed that intolerance and fringe whackos are not a good thing. We also agree that freedom of religion and freedom of speech/expression are important. If you'd read closely, you'd see that I simply disagreed that fuckwits burning books in Florida equals the USA becoming Nazi Germany. Personally I don't have a problem with mosques being built where there are people who want to worship in one. Yes, that includes downtown NYC. I'm not a fan of the government having control over religion anymore than I am of government controlling many other aspects of our lives. I don't give a shit if the new WTC building has office space dedicated to some sort of Muslim or Arab outreach organization. In that way the USA is a lot less like Nazis than many Persian and middle eastern countries. Try building a church or synagogue over there and see how that works out for you.

If I were to confess something right now it would be opinions amour you that would get me banned. Try to rein in your rabid attack dog posting style in favor of discussion and you might learn something. Who knows, you might even convince someone of something someday.
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Update: An illustrative example of how whacko fringe extremism can spread like a cancer:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/28/national/main6814690.shtml

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Fire at Tenn. Mosque Building Site Ruled Arson

Construction Equipment at Site of Planned Islamic Center Torched; Vocal Protests Against Mosque Have Been Ongoing


(CBS/AP) Updated at 9:25 p.m. ET

Federal officials are investigating a fire that started overnight at the site of a new Islamic center in a Nashville suburb.

Ben Goodwin of the Rutherford County Sheriff's Department confirmed to CBS Affiliate WTVF that the fire, which burned construction equipment at the future site of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, is being ruled as arson.

Special Agent Andy Anderson of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives told CBS News that the fire destroyed one piece of construction equipment and damaged three others. Gas was poured over the equipment to start the fire, Anderson said.

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Congratulations. You found an auto-correct, which I missed, that changed a misspelled "about" into "amour." I'd think even you could figure out what happened. Care to respond to the content of the post beyond a typo, or is it that you've got nothing of substance to say? (of course having nothing worth saying never stopped you from posting before)
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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Congratulations. You found an auto-correct, which I missed, that changed a misspelled "about" into "amour." I'd think even you could figure out what happened. Care to respond to the content of the post beyond a typo, or is it that you've got nothing of substance to say? (of course having nothing worth saying never stopped you from posting before)



I'd be happy to trade comments about the content rather than trade insults and jibes. Let both try that.

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Andy and I have always agreed that intolerance and fringe whackos are not a good thing. We also agree that freedom of religion and freedom of speech/expression are important. If you'd read closely, you'd see that I simply disagreed that fuckwits burning books in Florida equals the USA becoming Nazi Germany. Personally I don't have a problem with mosques being built where there are people who want to worship in one. Yes, that includes downtown NYC. I'm not a fan of the government having control over religion anymore than I am of government controlling many other aspects of our lives. I don't give a shit if the new WTC building has office space dedicated to some sort of Muslim or Arab outreach organization. In that way the USA is a lot less like Nazis than many Persian and middle eastern countries. Try building a church or synagogue over there and see how that works out for you.



Generally I'd agree with you, obviously the USA is not curently on a par with Nazi Germany. However it would seem that it is becoming worryingly more intollerant of forigeners and in particular Mulims. ( I often see in SC reference to Muslims in a way that suggests that its not possible to be an American and a Muslim (I'm not suggesting that this is your viewpoint or that you have insinuated this)). Nazi Germany didn't start with a big bang but a gradual errosion of civil liberties and a steady acceptance of anti semitism within society. Looking at what has happened in the USA in regards to a acceptance of Muslim bashing (for want of a better phrase) in the the last decade it is quite alarming.
As Andy mentioned in this post the cancer of extremisim spreads like widfire and that goes for people on both sides of the fence. the vast majority of Muslims want to live their lifes and raise their familys in peace just like the majority of other people in the west, the wacko extremists on both sides are doing everything they can to fan the hatred. Its distyrbing that promoting fear of Muslims seems to have been used in the last few years mainly by RWC Americans (although not exclusivly) as a political vechicle with which to undermine the current POTUS and his administration as well as justify the two wars in which thousands of Americans (and huundreds of thousand of non Americans)have lost their lives in.

(Not being an American I'm neither Democrat or Republican.)
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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Not in Berlin, but in 1995 Christian Serbs killed more than 8,000 Muslim non combatants because they were Muslim in Srebrenica. Thats nearly three times the number that died on 9/11.



Maybe they should put up a Serbian Orthodox church on the site to foster outreach and understanding.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Maybe they should, after all not all Eastern Orthodox Chritians are murders or supported the acts of genocide, in fact it is not a bad idea at all.
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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>Is Islam the new Jew?

Hopefully it won't get to that level. A lot of that will depend on how the anti-mosque types respond to this:

===============
Feds investigate fire at site of future Tennessee mosque
By Dan Gilgoff, CNN
August 30, 2010 4:54 p.m. EDT

Saturday's fires destroyed an earth mover and damaged other vehicles at the Murfreesboro, Tennessee, site.

(CNN) -- Suspected arson at the future site of a mosque in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, has "really raised the fear factor" among area Muslims, a representative of the mosque told CNN on Monday.

The Saturday morning blaze destroyed an earth mover and damaged three other vehicles at the future site of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, said Camie Ayash, a spokeswoman for the center. The fire is under investigation, but "you can reasonably make the assumption" that it was deliberately set, FBI Assistant Special Agent Keith Moses said Sunday.
================

Let's hope we see widespread condemnation of this sort of terrorism from the anti-mosque people. That would indicate that they at least oppose the same sort of violence they claim to fear.

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Maybe they should, after all not all Eastern Orthodox Chritians are murders or supported the acts of genocide, in fact it is not a bad idea at all.



Sure thing - they can end up like these Orthodox churches in the 2004 riots in Kosovo:
Prizren:
Our Lady of Ljeviš Cathedral (Bogorodica Ljeviška) from 12th century was burned down on 17 March
Church of Holy Salvation (Sveti Spas) from 14th century
Holy Hieromartyr George Cathedral (Sv. velikomučenika Đorđa), built in 1887 and housing the 14th century icon of Mary and an 18th century iconostasis
Monastery of the Holy Archangels from the 14th century
Church of St. George Runović, from 15th century with 16th century iconostasis gates
Seat of the Diocese of Raška and Prizren
Building of Sts. Cyrill and Methodius Orthodox Seminary, from 1880, sacked
Peć:
Church of St. John the Baptist (Svetog Jovana Preteče i Krstitelja) set on fire on 17 March in Pećka Banja village
Podujevo:
Saint Elijah Church destroyed and desecrated, coffins from the nearby Serbian cemetery were dug up, and bones of the dead were scattered away[10].
Belo Polje village church of St. Nicholas from 19th century
Đakovica: Church of the Ascension of Our Lord (Uspenja Gospodnjeg) from 19th century, torched along with the parochial residence on March 17. Reports of Albanians clearing the ruins of the Church of the Holy Trinity, destroyed in 1999.
Uroševac: Church of Tzar St. Uroš
Kosovo Polje:
Saint Nicholas Church in Kosovo Polje town from 19th century
Bresje village church of St. Catherine from 19th century
Gnjilane: Church of St. Nicholas from 1861
Pristina: Church of St. Nicholas from 19th century, damaged and sacked
Vučitrn: Church of St. Elijah, burned down
Southern Kosovska Mitrovica: Church of Saint Sava set afire in the morning of March 18, adjoining Orthodox cemetery desecrated
Srbica: Devič Monastery, nuns evacuated by Danish soldiers, monastery pillaged and torched, the tomb of St. Joannicius of Devič was desecrated[11]
Štimlje: Church of St. Michael the Archangel set on fire on March 19
Orahovac: Bela Crkva and Brnjak village churches burnt
Vitina: Two destroyed churches, in town and in village of Donja Slapašnica
Obilić: Church set afire
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Maybe they should, after all not all Eastern Orthodox Chritians are murders or supported the acts of genocide, in fact it is not a bad idea at all.



Sure thing - they can end up like these Orthodox churches in the 2004 riots in Kosovo:
Prizren:
Our Lady of Ljeviš Cathedral (Bogorodica Ljeviška) from 12th century was burned down on 17 March
Church of Holy Salvation (Sveti Spas) from 14th century
Holy Hieromartyr George Cathedral (Sv. velikomučenika Đorđa), built in 1887 and housing the 14th century icon of Mary and an 18th century iconostasis
Monastery of the Holy Archangels from the 14th century
Church of St. George Runović, from 15th century with 16th century iconostasis gates
Seat of the Diocese of Raška and Prizren
Building of Sts. Cyrill and Methodius Orthodox Seminary, from 1880, sacked
Peć:
Church of St. John the Baptist (Svetog Jovana Preteče i Krstitelja) set on fire on 17 March in Pećka Banja village
Podujevo:
Saint Elijah Church destroyed and desecrated, coffins from the nearby Serbian cemetery were dug up, and bones of the dead were scattered away[10].
Belo Polje village church of St. Nicholas from 19th century
Đakovica: Church of the Ascension of Our Lord (Uspenja Gospodnjeg) from 19th century, torched along with the parochial residence on March 17. Reports of Albanians clearing the ruins of the Church of the Holy Trinity, destroyed in 1999.
Uroševac: Church of Tzar St. Uroš
Kosovo Polje:
Saint Nicholas Church in Kosovo Polje town from 19th century
Bresje village church of St. Catherine from 19th century
Gnjilane: Church of St. Nicholas from 1861
Pristina: Church of St. Nicholas from 19th century, damaged and sacked
Vučitrn: Church of St. Elijah, burned down
Southern Kosovska Mitrovica: Church of Saint Sava set afire in the morning of March 18, adjoining Orthodox cemetery desecrated
Srbica: Devič Monastery, nuns evacuated by Danish soldiers, monastery pillaged and torched, the tomb of St. Joannicius of Devič was desecrated[11]
Štimlje: Church of St. Michael the Archangel set on fire on March 19
Orahovac: Bela Crkva and Brnjak village churches burnt
Vitina: Two destroyed churches, in town and in village of Donja Slapašnica
Obilić: Church set afire




I wonder how many Christians were in those churches when they were burned???

The problem with "ethnic cleansing" is the levels of depravity that human beings sink to.

Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo: An Accounting
U.S. State Department Report • December 1999


Prepared by the U.S. Department of State
December 1999

Executive Summary
Introduction
Overview
Documenting the Abuses
The Refugee Interview Process
Postscript: Albanian Retribution and Missing Persons
Atrocities and War Crimes by Location
Appendix: List of Annotated Web Site

PDF version:
Part 1:Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo (1.5MB)
Part 2:Atrocities and War Crimes by Locations (1 MB)
Part 3:Annotated Web Site (64 KB)




Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo: An Accounting is a new chapter in our effort to document the extent of human rights and humanitarian law violations in Kosovo, and to convey the size and scope of the Kosovo conflict. The information in this report is drawn from refugee accounts, NGO documentation, press accounts, and declassified information from government and international organization sources.

The atrocities against Kosovar Albanians documented in this report occurred primarily between March and late June, 1999. This document is a follow-up to the U.S. Department of State's previous human rights report, Erasing History: Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo, which was released on May 10, 1999.

A central question is the number of Kosovar Albanian victims of Serbian forces in Kosovo. Many bodies were found when KFOR and the ICTY entered Kosovo in June 1999. The evidence is also now clear that Serbian forces conducted a systematic campaign to burn or destroy bodies, or to bury the bodies, then rebury them to conceal evidence of Serbian crimes. On June 4, at the end of the conflict, the Department of State issued the last of a series of weekly ethnic cleansing reports, available at www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/rpt_990604_ksvo_ethnic.html concluding that at least 6,000 Kosovar Albanians were victims of mass murder, with an unknown number of victims of individual killings, and an unknown number of bodies burned or destroyed by Serbian forces throughout the conflict.

On November 10, 1999, ICTY Chief Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte told the U.N. Security Council that her office had received reports of more than 11,000 killed in 529 reported mass grave and killing sites in Kosovo. The Prosecutor said her office had exhumed 2,108 bodies from 195 of the 529 known mass graves. This would imply about 6,000 bodies in mass graves in Kosovo if the 334 mass graves not examined thus far contain the same average number of victims. To this total must be added three important categories of victims: (1) those buried in mass graves whose locations are unknown, (2) what the ICTY reports is a significant number of sites where the precise number of bodies cannot be counted, and (3) victims whose bodies were burned or destroyed by Serbian forces. Press accounts and eyewitness accounts provide credible details of a program of destruction of evidence by Serbian forces throughout Kosovo and even in Serbia proper. The number of victims whose bodies have been burned or destroyed may never be known, but enough evidence has emerged to conclude that probably around 10,000 Kosovar Albanians were killed by Serbian forces.

Death represents only one facet of Serbian actions in Kosovo.Over 1.5 million Kosovar Albanians--at least 90 percent of the estimated 1998 Kosovar Albanian population of Kosovo--were forcibly expelled from their homes. Tens of thousands of homes in at least 1,200 cities, towns, and villages have been damaged or destroyed. During the conflict, Serbian forces and paramilitaries implemented a systematic campaign to ethnically cleanse Kosovo--aspects of this campaign include the following:


• Forcible Displacement of Kosovar Albanian Civilians: Serbian authorities conducted a campaign of forced population movement. In contrast to actions taken during 1998, Yugoslav Army units and armed civilians joined the police in systematically expelling Kosovar Albanians at gunpoint from both villages and larger towns in Kosovo.

• Looting of Homes and Businesses: There are numerous reports of Serbian forces robbing residents before burning their homes. Another round of robbery occurred as Serbian forces stole from fleeing Kosovars as they crossed the border to Montenegro, Albania, or Macedonia.

• Widespread Burning of Homes: Over 1,200 residential areas were at least partially burned after late March, 1999. Kosovar Albanians have reported that over 500 villages were burned after March, 1999.

• Use of Human Shields: Refugees claim that Serbian forces used Kosovar Albanians to escort military convoys and shield facilities throughout the province. Other reporting indicates that Serbian forces intentionally positioned ethnic Albanians at sites they believed were targets for NATO airstrikes.

• Detentions: Serbian forces systematically separated military-aged men from the general population as Kosovars were expelled. These men were detained in facilities ranging from cement factories to prisons. Many of these detainees were forced to dig trenches and were physically abused. At least 2,000 Kosovar Albanians remain in detention in around a dozen Serbian prisons today.

• Summary Executions: There are accounts of summary executions at about 500 sites across Kosovo.

• Exhumation of Mass Graves: Serbian forces burned, destroyed, or exhumed bodies from mass graves in an attempt to destroy evidence. Some were reinterred in individual graves.

• Rape: There are numerous accounts indicating that the organized and individual rape of Kosovar Albanian women by Serbian forces was widespread. For example, Serbian forces systematically raped women in Djakovica and Pec, and in some cases rounded up women and took them to hotels where they were raped by troops under encouragement of their commanders. Rape is most likely an underreported atrocity because of the stigma attached to the victims in traditional Kosovar Albanian society.

• Violations of Medical Neutrality: Kosovar Albanian physicians, patients and medical facilities were systematically attacked. Many health care facilities were used as protective cover for military activities; NGOs report the destruction by Serbian forces of at least 100 clinics, pharmacies, and hospitals.

• Identity Cleansing: Kosovar Albanians were systematically stripped of identity and property documents including passports, land titles, automobile license plates, identity cards, and other forms of documentation. As much as 50 percent of the population may be without documentation. By systematically destroying schools, places of worship, and hospitals, Serbian forces sought to destroy social identity and the fabric of Kosovar Albanian society.

• Aftermath: Following the withdrawal of Serbian forces in June, Kosovo saw manifestations of a new set of human rights problems. These include acts of retribution against the Serb minority, including the killing of 200-400 Serb residents. In addition, as many as 23,000 conscientious objectors, draft evaders, and deserters in Serbia are threatened with legal action.

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Maybe they should, after all not all Eastern Orthodox Chritians are murders or supported the acts of genocide, in fact it is not a bad idea at all.



Sure thing - they can end up like these Orthodox churches in the 2004 riots in Kosovo:
Prizren:
Our Lady of Ljeviš Cathedral (Bogorodica Ljeviška) from 12th century was burned down on 17 March
Church of Holy Salvation (Sveti Spas) from 14th century
Holy Hieromartyr George Cathedral (Sv. velikomučenika Đorđa), built in 1887 and housing the 14th century icon of Mary and an 18th century iconostasis
Monastery of the Holy Archangels from the 14th century
Church of St. George Runović, from 15th century with 16th century iconostasis gates
Seat of the Diocese of Raška and Prizren
Building of Sts. Cyrill and Methodius Orthodox Seminary, from 1880, sacked
Peć:
Church of St. John the Baptist (Svetog Jovana Preteče i Krstitelja) set on fire on 17 March in Pećka Banja village
Podujevo:
Saint Elijah Church destroyed and desecrated, coffins from the nearby Serbian cemetery were dug up, and bones of the dead were scattered away[10].
Belo Polje village church of St. Nicholas from 19th century
Đakovica: Church of the Ascension of Our Lord (Uspenja Gospodnjeg) from 19th century, torched along with the parochial residence on March 17. Reports of Albanians clearing the ruins of the Church of the Holy Trinity, destroyed in 1999.
Uroševac: Church of Tzar St. Uroš
Kosovo Polje:
Saint Nicholas Church in Kosovo Polje town from 19th century
Bresje village church of St. Catherine from 19th century
Gnjilane: Church of St. Nicholas from 1861
Pristina: Church of St. Nicholas from 19th century, damaged and sacked
Vučitrn: Church of St. Elijah, burned down
Southern Kosovska Mitrovica: Church of Saint Sava set afire in the morning of March 18, adjoining Orthodox cemetery desecrated
Srbica: Devič Monastery, nuns evacuated by Danish soldiers, monastery pillaged and torched, the tomb of St. Joannicius of Devič was desecrated[11]
Štimlje: Church of St. Michael the Archangel set on fire on March 19
Orahovac: Bela Crkva and Brnjak village churches burnt
Vitina: Two destroyed churches, in town and in village of Donja Slapašnica
Obilić: Church set afire



With crimes committed by all sides it would make such a place of reconcilliation even more valuable to all parties.
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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No. Islam is the new Christianity.

The old Christianity has settled down following a few hundred years of slaughtering people all over the globe that did not want to join them, raping them of their natural resources, and forcing many of them into slavery.

Christians are now happy with their current role of pointing out all the nasty parts of Islam, and how they (the Christians) are so much better for having for the most part let those practices go.

I'm giddy with anticipation to see what flavor of oogie-boogie comes next, and how the various parties will line up to play their roles.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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>When Islamic fundamentalists carry out their dastardly deeds and the
>rest of the community does not speak out against it, doesn't that make
>them tacitly complicit or at least approving of those deeds?

Nope. No more so than your silence on the issue of Catholic priests sexually abusing young boys makes you complicit in their deeds.

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>When Islamic fundamentalists carry out their dastardly deeds and the
>rest of the community does not speak out against it, doesn't that make
>them tacitly complicit or at least approving of those deeds?

Nope. No more so than your silence on the issue of Catholic priests sexually abusing young boys makes you complicit in their deeds.



I have tried to speak out against that, and I get warned and told that I will be banned everytime I do.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Are you out publicly objecting to christian abortions?
Catholic pedophilia?
Mormon polygamy?


Guilt by association, really?



I have picketed and protested at planned parenthood. I still do on occasion.

On this forum you are not allowed to say anything about Priests and "those" preferences . . . so you won't see my arguments here. That, and it is against the law, no need to protest it.

Polygamy is against the law, no need to object to it.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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As is the case with terrorism, so what's the issue with Islamic believers again?



Honor Killings. BIG issue.

Human Rights, BIG issue.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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>>I have tried to speak out against that, and I get warned and told that I will be banned everytime I do.

>> On this forum you are not allowed to say anything about Priests and "those" preferences . . . so you won't see my arguments here. That, and it is against the law, no need to protest it.



I'm a bit surprised to hear that, as there have been a few threads that have discussed the issue, either as primary or secondary topic. I think for the most part that as long as the subject is discussed in a serious, thoughtful and mature fashion, and not in a humorous, crass or prurient fashion, it's generally tolerated as a legitimate discussion of an issue of the day.

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Got a question for you Normiss: When Islamic fundamentalists carry out their dastardly deeds and the rest of the community does not speak out against it, doesn't that make them tacitly complicit or at least approving of those deeds?



They do speak out its just that no one wants to listen.
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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