I'm becoming an atheist

[shropshire 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Physically, you cannot have something from nothing.

Except, it happens literally billions and billions of times every day. It just happens at a scale you can't see with your naked eyes.

I see where you're going with this. What happens billions and billions of times every day?

All I'm saying is that there is nothing, that we know of, that is created from nothing. There is always a force involved. I believe that something super natural created the natural.

What do you think created the supernatural?

Why, man of course.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[tkhayes 126]

congrats for seeing 'the light' if you want to call it that. It all came to me as rubbish while sitting in church at 14 years old.

Lots of atheists out there, we are just freer to speak up these days without being so persecuted like we used to be.

http://www.ffrf.org

you will do fine, even WITHOUT a god or other deity. life will be just like it was with those beliefs or without them...

[rhys 0]

Quote

I'm becoming a big fan of this guy.

Good veiwing!!

The athiest thing I am not so convinced of. It seems to me we all can agree on some sort of majic, or ingredient that we call 'life'.

But to be a real athiest one would have to have studied all aspects of religion, life (both social and natural) and science to come to such a positive conclusion.

I have pondered this subject enough to understand my perspective and have decided for now; until I am convinced otherwise, that I am Agnostic , and it seems most Athiests probably are too, but many arent even aware of the term.

Quote

ag·nos·tic
   /ægˈnɒstɪk/[ag-nos-tik]
–noun
1.
a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2.
a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
–adjective
3.
of or pertaining to agnostics or agnosticism.
4.
asserting the uncertainty of all claims to knowledge.

Quote

a·the·ist
   eɪθiɪst [ey-thee-ist]
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

My question to athiests is that how can one come to the conclusion that tere is no creator? I strongly dismisss any religion that has human beings in its nucleus but cannot dismiss the possiblity of something that is beyond my comprehention.

If people that are so certain that thay are correct on religon; were able to be humble enough to accept that they need not understand how the existance of life came to be and simply cherish it instead, we would have plenty less problems.

If the energy that is put into 'false' religon was actually put directly into good as it is portrayed to be, there would not be any need for aid as we could all sustain our coexistence if we were just a little less selfish.

I believe an Atheism is selfish, as it seems like a cop out to me!

That is just me however, but I have pondered and studied enough to now that I can stand by what I believe and I am quite prepared to discuss any possible alternative.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Meso 38]

A wise, intelligent choice to leave religion. I was in a similar boat, it took me most of my life to figure it out too, but when you start having doubts and actually look at things it all begins pretty clear, as I'm sure you know.

I too know the bible fairly well, and would debate against anyone who suggested Christianity was not right.

As for your first question about what's after life and all. It's probably the question that leaves so many people religious, the fear of the fact that when you die that is that and you're gone for eternity. It is a sad and depressing truth, but one you learn to accept. Which granted, can cause more pain in the idea of life to some, worrying about dying- But at least it's the truth.

You will also now get people telling you that you were never Christian. Though what can be expected from people who manage to go their entire lives without seeing that something is fucked up with their pattern of thought.

In my experience, once you have doubts and are willing to openly look at information the fact that there is no God will just become more and more apparent. Kind of like you've been brain washed for years and you're only now beginning to break through it and see reality from a point of view that isn't dictated by someone else.

You see as a Christian you are told what to believe and think, and many churches discourage questioning and examining evidence. Saying things like "that's the devil leading you astray". The only fair and equal way to look at religion is from not believing in it. Atheism isn't the opposite of religion, just the lack of it.

But welcome to the world of reality ;)

[quade 3]

Quote

I believe an Atheism is selfish, as it seems like a cop out to me!

I view many religions the same way, but obviously from a different viewpoint.

To me, it's the religious that can be "forgiven" their sins that is what is selfish.

A man in some religions can commit all sorts of crimes and sins against mankind, but as long as he "accepts Jesus Christ as his savior", he's "forgiven."

To me, that's the wrong reason.

How about treating other people properly to begin with and being responsible for your actions rather than relying on somebody else to "forgive" your sins? How about trying to be a good person because it's the right thing to do rather than out of fear you're going to burn in hell?

Isn't that a better reason on which to base your behavior?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Meso 38]

Your logic is flawed good sir,

As the commonly stated saying goes "Atheists only believe in one less God than the rest".

If, as you say to be an Atheist you must have studied all religions and aspects of life, then the same must be said about Christianity, or any other religion. If you are to be a believer in your religion, what is to say you picked the right one without studying all the rest? You came across it and it felt right? You just knew? It's no different from Atheism. In fact if anything I feel the opposite is true, Christians much of the time are raised as such and do not study up on scientific facts or question their belief system. They are far less educated than the Atheist who spent most of his life as a Christian.

I've got news for you though, In Christians eyes the majority feel Agnostic and Atheist are the same thing. And both are burning in hell, Christianity for example requires an indepth relationship with Jesus and a lifestyle that accompanies it.

I was agnostic for a while, but then I realized it's not just black and white. Sure there is no one on earth that can be 100% sure a God doesn't exist, that doesn't make all those people Agnostic.

For example, If I tell you there is a floating teacup in space that originally created all life, using a teabag. There is no way you can possibly know this is not true. But by using common logic, you realize the chances are so small that you are willing to plainly state you don't believe such a thing exists. The same with a God. I am not 100% sure that a God doesn't exist, no one is. But by being 99.99% sure, I don't believe in it- and therefore are Atheist.

If anything is a cop-out it is the Agnostic view, a fence sitter who is fucked either way. If there is a God he goes to hell, if there isn't, he lived cautiously incase there was and was never free from that. Though Agnostics for the most part lean much more towards the Atheist side.

So if there is a God, I`ll see you in hell partner :)

[RonD1120 58]

From Oswald Chambers this AM, interesting.

July 28th.

AFTER OBEDIENCE—WHAT?

"And straightway He constrained His disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side....” Mark vi. 45-52.

We are apt to imagine that if Jesus Christ constrains us, and we obey Him, He will lead us to great success. We must never put our dreams of success as God's purpose for us; His purpose may be exactly the opposite. We have an idea that God is leading us to a particular end, a desired goal; He is not. The question of getting to a particular end is a mere incident. What we call the process, God calls the end.

What is my dream of God's purpose? His purpose is that I depend on Him and on His power now. If I can stay in the middle of the turmoil calm and unperplexed, that is the end of the purpose of God. God is not working towards a particular finish; His end is the process—that I see Him walking on the waves, no shore in sight, no success, no goal, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because I see Him walking on the sea. It is the process, not the end, which is glorifying to God.

God's training is for now, not presently. His purpose is for this minute, not for something in the future. We have nothing to do with the afterwards of obedience; we get wrong when we think of the afterwards. What men call training and preparation, God calls the end.

God's end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now. If we have a further end in view, we do not pay sufficient attention to the immediate present: if we realize that obedience is the end, then each moment as it comes is precious.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Meso 38]

That particular post made me even more thankful that I don't believe in God. Because God sounds like a dick.

That whole article is pretty much saying we are God's bitches, and must act as such. The word obedience alone is enough to turn anyone with a sense of self-worth away. Having to obey something without question? Having to obey something that you can't see? Having to obey something based on the fact that other men say you have to?

It's pretty much the usual brainwashing crap. Don't question. Don't doubt. Follow blindly. Whatever happens is meant to happen.

While nothing would please me more than punching God right in the crotch, if these sort of words manage to get people through life. I guess it's their choice. Sometimes the truth is less painful masked by lies.

[rhys 0]

Quote

I view many religions the same way, but obviously from a different viewpoint.

To me, it's the religious that can be "forgiven" their sins that is what is selfish.

A man in some religions can commit all sorts of crimes and sins against mankind, but as long as he "accepts Jesus Christ as his savior", he's "forgiven."

You know what, I agree entirely, but I suppose I have only contemplated being an athiest and agnostic recently. After researhing a few religons, they all seem to focus on human life and ignore the rest. Once I have established that a 'faith' ignores that, other than what they think they know, then they are not really worth considering in my mind. It is plainly evident that we will never know everything, this makes it impossible to be sure that any theory is certain as one additional factor unknown can render that theory incorrect.

This is something I am comfortable with, but it seems many are not!

Quote

How about treating other people properly to begin with and being responsible for your actions rather than relying on somebody else to "forgive" your sins? How about trying to be a good person because it's the right thing to do rather than out of fear you're going to burn in hell?

Isn't that a better reason on which to base your behavior?

Damned straight!

If one comes to realise that what gives us our life (nature) is not ours to exploit, but ours to respect (and use), then they may live a meaningful existence by enjoying 'and' respecting that what allows us to live.

Nature is my God to bring things into perspective, natures scope roams way beyond our greater known existance that includes our solar system and universe; it is what gives us our ability to exist.

I would put money on it that we will never really ever understand the origin of life as we are so far from understanding everying that exists.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

For example, If I tell you there is a floating teacup in space that originally created all life, using a teabag. There is no way you can possibly know this is not true. But by using common logic, you realize the chances are so small that you are willing to plainly state you don't believe such a thing exists. The same with a God. I am not 100% sure that a God doesn't exist, no one is. But by being 99.99% sure, I don't believe in it- and therefore are Atheist.

hmmm, define God?

Quote

If anything is a cop-out it is the Agnostic view, a fence sitter who is fucked either way. If there is a God he goes to hell, if there isn't, he lived cautiously incase there was and was never free from that. Though Agnostics for the most part lean much more towards the Atheist side.

So if there is a God, I`ll see you in hell partner :)

Thats awesome!

To be perfectly honest, I am not sure?

I (pun intended) sure as hell don't live cautiously in the respecty of heaven and hell as I don't belive in those fables.

As an athiest do you simply not care about the origins of life, or do you simply beleive this was not one?

What is that you are sure of?

I am lead to beleive as an agnostic; I am simply stating that I believe is in something but not quite sure what?

I'm receptive to new ideas though.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

As an athiest do you simply not care about the origins of life, or do you simply beleive this was not one?

Uh, dude? No one is ever going to figure out the origin of life by sitting at home thinking "Maybe there is a God".

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

Personally, my understanding of God, doesn't mind you questioning anything. I think He rewards "seekers" (John 20:25-26)

I have moved away from so much "blind" faith and dogma, but I have never left Jesus, particularly His teachings as a way of life.

steveOrino

[rhys 0]

Quote

I have moved away from so much "blind" faith and dogma, but I have never left Jesus, particularly His teachings as a way of life.

Isn't that statement contradictary? Beliving in Jesus' teachings is beleiving in the integreaty of those that are responsable for relaying that message, that is faith in its purest form.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Meso 38]

Any supernatural power capable of producing life.

Though personally it involves all things supernatural as well.

If there is 1 reason to stay a Christian. It's to keep horror movies scary... Once I became Atheist and also stopped believing in supernatural stuff, I can't find any horror movie remotely spooky anymore :( <- My biggest regret.

An agnostic is really someone who doesn't believe in any single God, but you feel there is not enough evidence to deduce that there isn't one at all. It's often the bridge between the Christians and the Atheists, most everyone I knew that went from being Christian to being Atheist were at some point Agnostic. In that period where they realize how little sense Christianity makes but they are still a bit weary of not believing at all just in case they are wrong.

As for the origins of life, I care greatly for it. But I don't believe in going "Well... we have no 100% evidence on how this was formed, let us go with 'a magic man in the sky created it'"... There's a lot humans do not know yet, at one stage we didn't know anything about evolution in any form. And many went "Oh we can't explain that, let's say God did it". But with time evolution has been pretty much proven (at least in many forms).

You see, Christians often use this argument "Everything needs a creator... if can't exist from nowhere"... But then where did God come from? If nothing can exist without a creator, God can't exist. And therefore you either have to admit that something can exist from nothing or that God doesn't exist. Either way works in favour of the non-believer.

[rushmc 18]

Reading this thread has confirmed my view that atheism is just as much a religion as any that recognize a God. It is debated for with the same fervor and passion as those who believe in a God.

It is just a different one


However, in that light, you seem confused (at this point)
What ever path you pick I hope you find peace and calm

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[HueBobbs 0]

Quote

I believe an Atheism is selfish, as it seems like a cop out to me!

I would argue the exact opposite; funerals became much sadder once I became convinced that said person didn't go to a better place, but has simply ceased to exist except in our memories. The idea of an afterlife is comforting, but it feels too intellectually dishonest.

With the large possibility for alienation from our friends and families, it's harder right now to be an Atheist in the U.S. than a member of any religion.

While I do agree with you somewhat on your idea of how atheism and agnosticism are differentiated, I do think we can carry it a bit further. While it's just as impossible to prove that a god *does* exist than that a god *does not* exist, many people can put their belief in god on a scale of 'God might or might not exist' 'God probably exists', 'God probably does NOT exist'. I would say that people who believe 'God probably does not exist' or 'God almost certainly does not exist' to be able to self-identify as Atheists.

[rhys 0]

Quote

An agnostic is really someone who doesn't believe in any single God, but you feel there is not enough evidence to deduce that there isn't one at all. It's often the bridge between the Christians and the Atheists, most everyone I knew that went from being Christian to being Atheist were at some point Agnostic. In that period where they realize how little sense Christianity makes but they are still a bit weary of not believing at all just in case they are wrong.

That is certainly not the case for me but i can imagine how some lost christians offspring that are not sure could go down that road...

but they are still agnostic; as they beleive in something but they are not sure what.

I for one am not sure, and that is what makes me agnostic, but you wont find me avoiding any christian...?.... sins? that shit is a bunch of old codswollop.

Atheism is much like other religons as rushmc pointed out, as they seem so sure of themselves.

It is all religon and all religon is; The origin of life, and what ones percption of that is.

Usually this is what they have been told!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[HueBobbs 0]

If religions had otherwise few negative effects, it would largely be a moot point and you'd never hear from Atheists, but as long as people are dying simply because of religious differences, we argue to try and make the world a better place.

If your religion gives you a sense of purpose and doesn't intrude in the lives of those who don't believe as you do, then I'm happy that you do have that sense of purpose for yourself.

As for extremists, I don't know of any time an extremist Atheist has killed people because they believed in religion.

[rhys 0]

Quote

I would argue the exact opposite; funerals became much sadder once I became convinced that said person didn't go to a better place, but has simply ceased to exist except in our memories. The idea of an afterlife is comforting, but it feels too intellectually dishonest.

Touche. a very relevant point.

Quote

With the large possibility for alienation from our friends and families, it's harder right now to be an Atheist in the U.S. than a member of any religion.

That is scary as I would think that the majority of the NZ population are athiest or at least 'not christian or anything'.

I cannot imagine what it would be like, I went to a presbetarian school as it was known for good education, I learned a bit about christianity and a couple of other religons and we all went to chapel etc, but it is safe to say that most of the people in those chapel services were only there because the had to be.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Darius11 12]

This has been a very interesting thread.


I am not for telling anyone what will happen when the truth is no one knows.
However one thing I find odd is most of the comments make it seem you have let other people tell you what Christianity is about instead of making your own conclusion.

Remember that all religions have been manipulated by man to maintain power. Many of the so-called rules are not gods rules but rules of man. Make up your own mind.

Another issues that makes me smile is people who have an arrogant sense about being an atheist. As if they somehow know all, when the only logical way to be is to be unsure.
If you want to talk science they do not have THE answer, they discover and the more we learn the more questions we seem to have. Also not all religions or religious people deny science that’s a misconception.
The humane Ego would love to think that we have a pretty good grasp on things the reality is we don’t. Were good at describing the forces but the cause is unknown. Usually when we are sure about something years later we find out that we were just at the tip of the iceberg, and there was so much we did not know.


On a personal note. For me I have realized in truly desperate situations (unfortunately I have had a few) it is me who needs to believe in god to survive. The actual belief right or wrong has helped me survive. I also don’t measure gods grace by my bank account. I don’t think 3 years ago when things were great god loved me more and now he hates me. That’s such a simplistic view to look at it.
I think we should question, and unfortunately this life of mine will end as will yours without knowing.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[RALFFERS 0]

Quote

I also don’t measure gods grace by my bank account. I don’t think 3 years ago when things were great god loved me more and now he hates me. That’s such a simplistic view to look at it.
I think we should question, and unfortunately this life of mine will end as will yours without knowing.

Did you come away with the impression that I stopped believing in God because I didn't, & don't have x number of dollars in my bank account?

Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Quote

I also don’t measure gods grace by my bank account. I don’t think 3 years ago when things were great god loved me more and now he hates me. That’s such a simplistic view to look at it.
I think we should question, and unfortunately this life of mine will end as will yours without knowing.

Did you come away with the impression that I stopped believing in God because I didn't, & don't have x number of dollars in my bank account?

I got the feeling you have had some bad experiences and that was your reasoning. I got the impression that you might think believing in god insures a life with less pain.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[RALFFERS 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I also don’t measure gods grace by my bank account. I don’t think 3 years ago when things were great god loved me more and now he hates me. That’s such a simplistic view to look at it.
I think we should question, and unfortunately this life of mine will end as will yours without knowing.

Did you come away with the impression that I stopped believing in God because I didn't, & don't have x number of dollars in my bank account?

I got the feeling you have had some bad experiences and that was your reasoning. I got the impression that you might think believing in god insures a life with less pain.

That is true, only in a small way though, & is far from the primary reason for my lack of belief. The bible does promise though that 'god' will meet your needs. Well, this has not been my experience, & in fact my experience has changed drastically since I was 19. Lets face it, I was a young & impressionable kid at 19 years old. Reality is reality ,y friend, & I rather have the hardest, coldest reality rather than the feel good empty promises bullshit of the bible.

Ask yourself this question - is it a complete coincidence that so many people in prison 'come to Jesus" ? Perhaps that is the case because the majority of people in prison are people that failed miserably in life, & thus their only solace is an all powerful, all loving god who promises eternity in heaven.

Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I also don’t measure gods grace by my bank account. I don’t think 3 years ago when things were great god loved me more and now he hates me. That’s such a simplistic view to look at it.
I think we should question, and unfortunately this life of mine will end as will yours without knowing.

Did you come away with the impression that I stopped believing in God because I didn't, & don't have x number of dollars in my bank account?

I got the feeling you have had some bad experiences and that was your reasoning. I got the impression that you might think believing in god insures a life with less pain.

I think atheists acknowledge that religious or supernatural beliefs may very well ease emotional pain; for example, the belief that a loved one who has died has gone on to a better place, rather than simply ceased to exist. But that doesn't mean that that belief, even if it has a beneficial effect, is based on actual fact.

This, in turn, albeit indirectly, may translate into actual (i.e., more than emotional) benefit. That is because anything that helps a person's overall feeling of emotional well-being - be it therapy, anti-depressant medication, falling in love - or religious beliefs - may help the person function and cope with life better, and that may translate into real-world benefit. But again - just because that religious belief may ultimately have had a beneficial effect does not mean that it is based on actual demonstrable fact-in-reality.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Ask yourself this question - is it a complete coincidence that so many people in prison 'come to Jesus" ? Perhaps that is the case because the majority of people in prison are people that failed miserably in life, & thus their only solace is an all powerful, all loving god who promises eternity in heaven.

I think you might be misreading the cause and effect in the prison scenario.

People often find god in extreme situations.


Also the way you describe the religion

Quote

The bible does promise though that 'god' will meet your needs. Well, this has not been my experience, & in fact my experience has changed drastically since I was 19

Is not the way I understand it.
We look at god from different perspectives with different expectations.
As I said before I am not hear to claim I know right and wrong, but I find the way you and others describe god and his grace very short-narrow-sighted manner.

We all will find out soon enough.

One thing i am sure of is that no one knows.

good luck.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain