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RALFFERS

I'm becoming an atheist

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In order to obey one must first believe.



I guess you were never in the military.

Psalm 34:8
O taste and see that the LORD is good;How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!



The bible also says: "
Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart
- Psalm 37-4

Well, I wholeheartedly believed for the last decade, up until now of course. Has God granted that promise? - no. Have I asked him for anything extravagant? - like winning the lottery? - no I always asked for things any sane man would want in his life - so a job to support myself, a wife, I mean lets face it, being single gets boring sooner than later, & laugh as you may - skydiving. Being that it would bring me so much happiness to be a part of the sport. Are any of those things true in my life? - nope. Life experience has shown me that god does not exist. And if I hear any one more religious person tell me "in God's timing you'll have those things" I'm going to puke 100 meters! I'm 3 days away from turning 29 - time is steadily stopping on being on my side for tthe various things I want to achieve in my life.

Don't get me wrong, this is not a woe me post - all I'm saying is anything that you want out of life it's your responsibility to go out and get it. The hell with waiting on god - who clearly does not exist.



An you actually did have jobs before Ralf. You should find your happiness in Christ first, not a job, not a wife, or skydiving. Believing in God requires faith, without faith you can't please him. Sounds like a security issue to me. an of course every man eventually wants those things, but first you have to find 100% happiness in Christ and not doubt him.. To put it bluntly you can't expect God to provide you those things when your not consistent or obedient to him. This may seem like a simple answer, but it is true. Doubting God and being inconsistent with God and expecting him to provide like that will not happen.But you seen God answer your prayers before to.

Your salvation can't be lost Ralf and I will be there as a friend if you want any help-God Bless

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Why do atheists spend so much effort trying to debunk the existence of God?



Because Christianity impedes scientific advancement. I'm sure that even you'll admit to that. Separation of Church and State is only the beginning of what society needs to break free from the constraints of religious oppression.

Honestly, I don't give a damn that you or the next man believes in God. In fact, in a previous post, I already admitted that it has benefits for its followers. However, I do give a shit when your beliefs get forced down my throat in schools, work places, and inhibits my freedoms, as well as those pushing technological advances and sociological reforms.



Forced how so? Just cause a person is talking about God or is spreading God's word doesn't mean you have to listen to it.

Nobody forced me into believing in God, in fact I was alone when I accepted Christ.. Sure I heard people talk about God, just like I heard people talking about evolution and other answers to life and the begging of life.

As far as Christianity in schools I think people/kids have the right to hear both sides and choose what they think is best and more logical.

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>Forced how so?

Here in the US no one is forced to do anything with respect to religion. But you are highly encouraged when it comes to Christianity.

If you work for the government, you get Sundays and Christmas off so you can observe your religious rites. If not - you have to make special arrangements.

Your kids will be taught a pledge that includes the words "under God," a revisionist tactic that some government types back in the 1950's used to fight the godless Commies. They can choose not to say it - but again, they get taught it as the default.

Imagine, for example, if your kids were placed in a school where they had to attend Sunday through Thursday to accommodate someone's religious observations on Friday. And were then taught a pledge that included the phrase "we swear this under all the gods of the skies and seas." You complain but are told that it's optional; no one's forcing them to do anything. You still might feel a little pressure.

>As far as Christianity in schools I think people/kids have the right to
>hear both sides and choose what they think is best and more logical.

What's "both sides?" Christianity and atheism? There are far, far more sides to the equation than that!

But if you meant "all sides" then I'm all for that. Teach a world religions class*. Tell them about Christianity in all its forms, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Wiccan, you name it. Then let them make up their minds.

(* - provided that the more important stuff - math, science, writing, reading - gets covered first.)

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>Forced how so?

Here in the US no one is forced to do anything with respect to religion. But you are highly encouraged when it comes to Christianity.

If you work for the government, you get Sundays and Christmas off so you can observe your religious rites. If not - you have to make special arrangements.

Your kids will be taught a pledge that includes the words "under God," a revisionist tactic that some government types back in the 1950's used to fight the godless Commies. They can choose not to say it - but again, they get taught it as the default.

Imagine, for example, if your kids were placed in a school where they had to attend Sunday through Thursday to accommodate someone's religious observations on Friday. And were then taught a pledge that included the phrase "we swear this under all the gods of the skies and seas." You complain but are told that it's optional; no one's forcing them to do anything. You still might feel a little pressure.

>As far as Christianity in schools I think people/kids have the right to
>hear both sides and choose what they think is best and more logical.

What's "both sides?" Christianity and atheism? There are far, far more sides to the equation than that!

But if you meant "all sides" then I'm all for that. Teach a world religions class*. Tell them about Christianity in all its forms, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Wiccan, you name it. Then let them make up their minds.

Ok fine let me rephrase that. Creationism and Evolution and or the belief that there is no God.

In regards to the pledge and kids having to sing it/say it there is a simple answer to that. It is a country rule or requirement that all American schools have to sing it/ say it. That is still not forced upon it is just a rule/policy etc that has to be follow according to the government of the United States. If it really bothers someone that much then you can home school or go to a different country. Do I think it should be a rule? No but it is and I honestly do not think it is that BIG of a deal. That is not forcing you to believe in a God that is just forcing you to say/sing a song that has the word God in it. No one can force you to believe in a supernatural being. I don't know that is just my opinion though singing the pledge in schools does not seem like a big deal to me. I look at it as a "country pride" thing. it is not like there pointing a gun towards your head. All countries/companies/jobs have rules that you need to follow that you may find dumb or irrelevant.

(* - provided that the more important stuff - math, science, writing, reading - gets covered first.)

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>Ok fine let me rephrase that. Creationism and Evolution . . .

No problem. Teach evolution in science class and creationism in religion class. You could cover a bunch of creation myths from all religions.

>and or the belief that there is no God.

Another good topic for religion class. Perhaps add a few weeks on to the school year to cover all this stuff.

>In regards to the pledge and kids having to sing it/say it there is a simple
>answer to that. It is a country rule or requirement that all American schools
>have to sing it/ say it.

Uh, right. Which is what we were talking about.

> No but it is and I honestly do not think it is that BIG of a deal.

I agree. But I also think that if kids in the US were asked (not forced, just asked) to pledge to a nation under Allah, that there would be parents actually keeping their kids out of school out of horror and outrage. It goes both ways.

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No problem. Teach evolution in science class and creationism in religion class. You could cover a bunch of creation myths from all religions.


(Emphasis mine)

To be legal, I think you'd have to.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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--So your evidence is you have a good life therefore there is a god and he is as you imagine him to be? So anyone that isn't experiencing a good life is because god is angry with them?

Like I said before, I would not believe in the god that you believe doesn't exist either.

--I have a good life, yet I don't believe in any god. There are many Muslims and Hindus that are enjoying life yet they don't believe in your god. Your evidence is lacking.

I think that is great, God given freedom at its best. My evidence is those, like me, who once were lost but now have found the meaning of life abundantly. I never argue with success. If you found it and you are happy clap your hands.

...

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Our existence isn't meaningless. We're here to destroy the planet and ourselves in the process.

Doing a bang up job so far... [:/]



On one hand I could easily agree with you. If we were not here for a purpose we would definitely be a dead end, malignant, evolutionary disaster. I guess our major claim to fame would be that we were the cause of the 8th global extinction of the planet.

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There is more to evidence that what you can find written in a text book or hear at a conference. My evidence is a long rich life, the recipient of love and forgiveness, free of anger and hate, blessed with peace and joy. Up lifted every morning by the assurance that God is in control and that all things work together for good for those who love God. That is my evidence it is written in my heart.



I have all of the above described feelings, and I don't believe in god. Existentialism is a wonderful thing.

I encourage anyone with 2 minutes to watch this clip from the movie Waking Life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGoGFU9tB8g

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---Surely, the original story was anything but the version that we have in the present day; the thing with myths is the longer they survive & are passed on, the more they are believed, & more so, defended with [supposed] rationale


Myths that are false fade away and pass out of our collective consciousness. Truth, survives cultures and time because it is always relevant.


...

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---Surely, the original story was anything but the version that we have in the present day; the thing with myths is the longer they survive & are passed on, the more they are believed, & more so, defended with [supposed] rationale


Myths that are false fade away and pass out of our collective consciousness. Truth, survives cultures and time because it is always relevant.


...



how do you justify eternal punishment, man?... I'm sorry, but society wouldn't even condemn Hitler to burn forever. Furthermore, how do you reconcile a loving god - but one who also is willing to send people to hell?

The god of the bible sounds like an egotistical, power-tripping pricK... I'm not interested.
Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

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--how do you justify eternal punishment, man?... I'm sorry, but society wouldn't even condemn Hitler to burn forever. Furthermore, how do you reconcile a loving god - but one who also is willing to send people to hell?

The god of the bible sounds like an egotistical, power-tripping pricK... I'm not interested.



Personally , I think the concept of hell is a bit over blown. Allegorical fire is used in the Bible to cleanse both those who love God and those who don't. I imagine hell will be a place of regret over lost opportunities. What ever the place is, it is not Gods best for us.


...

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--how do you justify eternal punishment, man?... I'm sorry, but society wouldn't even condemn Hitler to burn forever. Furthermore, how do you reconcile a loving god - but one who E.also is willing to send people to hell?

The god of the bible sounds like an egotistical, power-tripping pricK... I'm not interested.



Personally , I think the concept of hell is a bit over blown. Allegorical fire is used in the Bible to cleanse both those who love God and those who don't. I imagine hell will be a place of regret over lost opportunities. What ever the place is, it is not Gods best for us.


...



This is just one of many biblical inconsistencies. Read Romans, chapter 9 - and then tell me man has freewill; any choice in the matter...
Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

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---Surely, the original story was anything but the version that we have in the present day; the thing with myths is the longer they survive & are passed on, the more they are believed, & more so, defended with [supposed] rationale


Myths that are false fade away and pass out of our collective consciousness. Truth, survives cultures and time because it is always relevant.


...



how do you justify eternal punishment, man?... I'm sorry, but society wouldn't even condemn Hitler to burn forever. Furthermore, how do you reconcile a loving god - but one who also is willing to send people to hell?

The god of the bible sounds like an egotistical, power-tripping pricK... I'm not interested.



It is just killing you that you or i can't understand that. It is simple if you accept Christ as your Lord you have the eternal gift. Did Job curse at God when God allowed Satan to mess with him like that? God knows what is going to happen and how it happens before anyone. Trusting his judgment is part of faith. Am I happy if a kid a 5 year old dies from leukemia or a 15 year old or my friend Ludy who got run over twice by a car and died while being 5 months pregnant no ofcorse not and it really sucks. But for every bad thing that happens God will bring good of it. People were born blind and had other disabilities from birth as well in the bible and while it may seem unfair in our eyes at the time we must have faith in his judgment.

You can't understand the full knowledge of God Ralf, if you knew the full knowledge of God you really wouldn't need him then, because what's the point if your perfect?

I do know that hell can be worse for some and not as bad for others though
http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/05/hell-what-does-the-bible-says-about-it/. Scroll down and go to hell differs for some ppl. It has verses clearly stating this..

Society can't condemn something that is eternal . God has to be the judge for eternal life, and people/governments/laws etc judge what happens to you in this life based on your actions here but that is NOT eternal..Sinners would not like Heaven, sinners would destroy it.

I think part of the problem people have generally in my opinion is that they hate to admit that there are some things us as humans will not understand because we are not perfect and we do not have that kind of capacity.

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--how do you justify eternal punishment, man?... I'm sorry, but society wouldn't even condemn Hitler to burn forever. Furthermore, how do you reconcile a loving god - but one who E.also is willing to send people to hell?

The god of the bible sounds like an egotistical, power-tripping pricK... I'm not interested.



Personally , I think the concept of hell is a bit over blown. Allegorical fire is used in the Bible to cleanse both those who love God and those who don't. I imagine hell will be a place of regret over lost opportunities. What ever the place is, it is not Gods best for us.


...



This is just one of many biblical inconsistencies. Read Romans, chapter 9 - and then tell me man has freewill; any choice in the matter...



God knows our fate and actions before were born including the CHOICES that we make

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>God knows our fate and actions before were born including the CHOICES
>that we make . . .

Then they are not choices, now, are they? They are merely predestined actions that you have no power over.



No, to be fair, knowing the choice of people in a way like seeing the future, & influencing the choice are two different things. But when we speak of the bible, knowing = predestined/predetermined. So you're right, it's not a choice at all.

Pete, I read the thing you sent me Pertaining to Romans 9:7-21 (here is the link so everyone else can read it) & would like to point out a few things (bolded & underlined for added emphasis). You say that God judges us simply on our actions, simply because he knows what we're going to do in advance. But the very article you sent me, as well as the bible itself is stating the complete opposite.

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Truthfully, the text is not that hard to understand. The teaching is pretty clear. The problem is that we don’t like what the passage teaches.



Right here, in the very beginning the author admits that we're not going to like what we hear - because it's not fair.

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Paul began the chapter addressing an anticipated question: “Has God’s promise to Israel failed since so many Jews have turned away from Christ?” The answer Paul gives is, God never intended for all Jews to be saved.



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Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand; not by works but by him who calls—she was told



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The troubling phrase “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” is taken from the book of Malachi. The quote is from the first verses of Malachi where God spoke to the descendents of Jacob and Esau and promised to bless Jacob (Israel) and demolish Esau (Edom). I wish the verse wasn’t here . . .but it is. It reminds us that in the end some will be saved and face God’s blessing while others will be lost and face His wrath.



Even the article's author has a problem with this very teaching that he's trying to justify.

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It is natural to think that God chose Jacob because God knew the kind of people Jacob and Esau were going to be. However, Paul makes it a point to say that Jacob was chosen NOT because of anything he had done or because of anything that he would do, but solely so “God’s purpose in election might stand



So in fact its not God judging us based on what we do that he see;s beforehand, just god choosing.

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As I said, these illustrations are not that hard to understand. Paul is saying, “Salvation is something that is given to those God chooses to give it to.”



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 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.



Nothing is said here of people's choice over god's will/predetermined plan.

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What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.



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God told Moses that mercy and compassion are dispensed solely at God’s discretion.



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To understand this argument we have to understand the difference between mercy and justice. Justice is getting what you deserve. For God to be universally just, He should condemn us all. We deserve to be “hated” like Esau.



Why, Because Eve ate off a tree that god forbid her to long before any of us were born, so we have to serve time for it?... That's like you going to jail for something I did... :| Does that sound like justice to you?

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19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

In other words, “If God has already decided who will be saved, How can God hold people accountable if they don’t respond to the gospel?” Paul’s response is a little less than satisfying. He says, “Who are you to talk back to God? He made us and He can do what he wants with us.”



This is just poor argumentation on the part of the author;; I.E god is god, therefore he can do whatever he wants without question Ask yourself if such an argument would hold up in a court of law - but instead of god we were examining a person.

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Some people leave Romans 9 all upset. They conclude that if they take Romans 9 seriously they lose any sense of human freedom. That’s an erroneous conclusion. We will see in chapter 10 of Romans that Paul tells us that the Jews have fallen away because they did not believe. He places the responsibility squarely on their choice.



This is faulty logic.; you can't say all that St. Paul & the writer of this article said previously, & then make this statement without the two contradicting each other. Another words, a car can't be painted all blue, but also be all black - it's either one or the other. The author's best attempts to explain/justify th above inconsistencies begin when he cites Lawrence Kohlberg's 6 stages of moral development. Even still, I don't find it sufficient enough.

Lastly, look at John Macarthur's commentary 1Peter 1:2, which reads:

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according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.



Macarthur's footnote from his study bible:

Quote

1:2 foreknowledge. The same grammatical word is translated "foreknown" in verse 20. In both verses, the word does not refer to awareness of what is going to happen, but it clearly means a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of the Lord. God brought the salvation relationship into existence by decreeing it into existence ahead of time. Christians are foreknown for salvation the same way Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sins (cf. Acts 2:23). Foreknowledge means that God planned before, not that He observed before (cf. Exodus 33:17; Jeremiah 1:5; Amos 3:2; Matthew 7:23). Thus, God pre-thought and pre-determined or predestined each Christian's salvation see notes on Romans 8:29; Ephesians 1:4).



It is worth noting that this passage, & many others like it is the reason why people have been debating for centuries, & are in one of two camps - Calvinism and Arminianism. There are just two many contradictions & inconsistencies to explain; the bible doesn't hold together nearly as well as Christians like to claim that it does.
Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

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>God knows our fate and actions before were born including the CHOICES
>that we make . . .

Then they are not choices, now, are they? They are merely predestined actions that you have no power over.



No, to be fair, knowing the choice of people in a way like seeing the future, & influencing the choice are two different things. But when we speak of the bible, knowing = predestined/predetermined. So you're right, it's not a choice at all.

Pete, I read the thing you sent me Pertaining to Romans 9:7-21 (here is the link so everyone else can read it) & would like to point out a few things (bolded & underlined for added emphasis). You say that God judges us simply on our actions, simply because he knows what we're going to do in advance. But the very article you sent me, as well as the bible itself is stating the complete opposite.

Quote

Truthfully, the text is not that hard to understand. The teaching is pretty clear. The problem is that we don’t like what the passage teaches.



Right here, in the very beginning the author admits that we're not going to like what we hear - because it's not fair.

Quote

Paul began the chapter addressing an anticipated question: “Has God’s promise to Israel failed since so many Jews have turned away from Christ?” The answer Paul gives is, God never intended for all Jews to be saved.



Quote

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand; not by works but by him who calls—she was told



Quote

The troubling phrase “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” is taken from the book of Malachi. The quote is from the first verses of Malachi where God spoke to the descendents of Jacob and Esau and promised to bless Jacob (Israel) and demolish Esau (Edom). I wish the verse wasn’t here . . .but it is. It reminds us that in the end some will be saved and face God’s blessing while others will be lost and face His wrath.



Even the article's author has a problem with this very teaching that he's trying to justify.

Quote

It is natural to think that God chose Jacob because God knew the kind of people Jacob and Esau were going to be. However, Paul makes it a point to say that Jacob was chosen NOT because of anything he had done or because of anything that he would do, but solely so “God’s purpose in election might stand



So in fact its not God judging us based on what we do that he see;s beforehand, just god choosing.

Quote

As I said, these illustrations are not that hard to understand. Paul is saying, “Salvation is something that is given to those God chooses to give it to.”



Quote

 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.



Nothing is said here of people's choice over god's will/predetermined plan.

Quote

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.



Quote

God told Moses that mercy and compassion are dispensed solely at God’s discretion.



Quote

To understand this argument we have to understand the difference between mercy and justice. Justice is getting what you deserve. For God to be universally just, He should condemn us all. We deserve to be “hated” like Esau.



Why, Because Eve ate off a tree that god forbid her to long before any of us were born, so we have to serve time for it?... That's like you going to jail for something I did... :| Does that sound like justice to you?

Quote

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

In other words, “If God has already decided who will be saved, How can God hold people accountable if they don’t respond to the gospel?” Paul’s response is a little less than satisfying. He says, “Who are you to talk back to God? He made us and He can do what he wants with us.”



This is just poor argumentation on the part of the author;; I.E god is god, therefore he can do whatever he wants without question Ask yourself if such an argument would hold up in a court of law - but instead of god we were examining a person.

Quote

Some people leave Romans 9 all upset. They conclude that if they take Romans 9 seriously they lose any sense of human freedom. That’s an erroneous conclusion. We will see in chapter 10 of Romans that Paul tells us that the Jews have fallen away because they did not believe. He places the responsibility squarely on their choice.



This is faulty logic.; you can't say all that St. Paul & the writer of this article said previously, & then make this statement without the two contradicting each other. Another words, a car can't be painted all blue, but also be all black - it's either one or the other. The author's best attempts to explain/justify th above inconsistencies begin when he cites Lawrence Kohlberg's 6 stages of moral development. Even still, I don't find it sufficient enough.

Lastly, look at John Macarthur's commentary 1Peter 1:2, which reads:

Quote

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.



Macarthur's footnote from his study bible:

Quote

1:2 foreknowledge. The same grammatical word is translated "foreknown" in verse 20. In both verses, the word does not refer to awareness of what is going to happen, but it clearly means a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of the Lord. God brought the salvation relationship into existence by decreeing it into existence ahead of time. Christians are foreknown for salvation the same way Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sins (cf. Acts 2:23). Foreknowledge means that God planned before, not that He observed before (cf. Exodus 33:17; Jeremiah 1:5; Amos 3:2; Matthew 7:23). Thus, God pre-thought and pre-determined or predestined each Christian's salvation see notes on Romans 8:29; Ephesians 1:4).



It is worth noting that this passage, & many others like it is the reason why people have been debating for centuries, & are in one of two camps - Calvinism and Arminianism. There are just two many contradictions & inconsistencies to explain; the bible doesn't hold together nearly as well as Christians like to claim that it does.


In Romans and in that article in a different section it also sates that some things God left unexplained in the bible, not because there is no reason but because we would not be able to understand such knowledge. Who are you or I to say it is unfair and or wrong if you or I do not have the knowledge that God has. Again your trying to understand and know God's full knowledge and that is impossible because there are things that God did leave unexplained because we would not understand. Heck like you said people have a hard time understanding the bible because it does not seem fair to us u used the word "debating". Trying to understand the knowledge that God provided in the bible is hard enough for us as humans with the capacity we have to fully understand which is why it requires FAITH. Your not perfect, you do not posses God's power and knowledge and neither do i or any other human being on this planet, why do you think Christians keep growing through out there lifetime? Because the knowledge that God provided in the bible and the truth is already very hard for us to understand and takes a beyond a lifetime to fully understand. Believe it or not but Ed is still growing in his faith and he actually didn't see some things the way I did or understand fully as I did and same goes for me and how he understands certain verse. instead of focusing on the thing that you find unfair in the Bible in your eyes and mind you should focus on God and his will and especially remind you of what he has done for you. I can see why you see Romans 9 as unfair or contradicting with your mind but you have to have faith in God's judgment. If you Believe a a supernatural being called God is holy and perfect then you have to understand that there are things that only a person or being as perfect as God would understand.

As far as predestined actions, dude that is part of life man hate to tell you. Just like there are criminals/rapist/very stubborn people etc and there are good genuine people who love Christ, you have to expect that in a world that is not perfect or just. Why do you think God will create a new world?? In a world that is not perfect there has to bad people and good people to have a balance. Bad people are required so that Christians can be challenged in there faith.

And once again believing in God and his judgment is not easy and does require FAITH which i do not think you understand fully. it is not easy to have faith at times and it is not always easy to live life for Christ, especially if it dosent always appeal to us.

Believing in anything requires faith and or a strong belief that your belief is true and believing that thing knows what is best and or what is true including science.

I am not trying to scare you here with this comment Ralf but think logically, do the consequences/benefits of what if there is a God, outweigh the benefits/consequences of what if there is not.

You can find something wrong and nit pick at everything Ralf. There are many scientist that believe in God/Creationism just like there are many scientist that don't. Anything that you believe in requires a strong faith to believe that it is right and it is the best option or best explanation of life.

There are many things that prove that god exist and you can make a very good argument about it and there are things you can use to disprove God, but nothing is 100% explained and requires faith.

Personally I believe that is more humbling to believe in a God that is perfect and understanding that I do not and will not have the capacity or full knowledge of God until I am in Heaven, as opposed to thinking "oh God is contradicting himself and this is unjust screw this"I am not saying you said those exact words but that is how I see it as. You seem to be struggling with your own sense of pride and or submission to God. Nothing is easy all Christian doubt to at one point in their lives.

Sorry if it seems like I repeated myself but even in the article it shows us that you need to have faith he fact that he mentioned "Truthfully, the text is not that hard to understand. The teaching is pretty clear. The problem is that we don’t like what the passage teaches."

And as far as you talking about eve and eating the apple and us having to pay the price for it. Well that is true actually, if your parents were let say into cults and black and white magic and they had son that grew up with those parents it will effect the kid negatively, so yea Eve taking a bite of that apple will effect the outcome on other peoples lives with sin..

Just like a kid who has a father that beats him and his wife because of his drinking will effect the kid in his life negatively with sin. Is it fair of course not, but what can you expect in a world that is not perfect?

You have to have faith in the God's plan..

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It is worth noting that this passage, & many others like it is the reason why people have been debating for centuries, & are in one of two camps - Calvinism and Arminianism. There are just two many contradictions & inconsistencies to explain; the bible doesn't hold together nearly as well as Christians like to claim that it does.



It is interesting to see what trips people up. Some get bent out of shape when they can't understand God's concept of knowledge in relation to time. Just a cursory look and general relativity will tell you that the understanding of time and space is complex. And that for us, with only a linear uni-dimensional view of time and space, reality would look a lot different than it does with God's multi-dimensional view of time and space. The theory of general relativity says that the time arrow is multi-directional. God must see everything happening linearly like we do and simultaneous all at the same time. With that in mind, questions like , "how do He know what I am going to do, before I do" and "If He know what I do before I do it, how do I have any say in the matter" become irrelevant. Unless of course you just want to find a straw man to bolster unbelief.

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>And once again believing in God and his judgment is not easy and does
> require FAITH . . .

No, it doesn't. If God already knows the actions you will take, then "easy" or "hard" is not an issue. Faith is not required. What has been destined to happen, will happen, whether or not you have faith.

>if your parents were let say into cults and black and white magic and they
>had son that grew up with those parents it will effect the kid negatively

Right, but again, it doesn't matter. They could do nothing else; they did not have a choice in the matter. God already knew what they were going to do.

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A straw man isn't necessary. The fact that there is no evidence of any god regardless of your how you define god is enough support disbelief.



You have got to know this whole excuse of God's doesn't exist because science can't prove He exists is a bunch of crap. There is such a huge hole in science being the defining last word on reality that it is laughable. Physics has nothing to say about the development of complexity. Yes they give a reductionist view of the mechanics behind matter and energy, but nothing in any of the scientific theories explains how or why complexity occurs. To over look this small point disqualifies one from a realistic discussion on the big picture of reality.

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Quote

You have got to know this whole excuse of God's doesn't exist because science can't prove He exists is a bunch of crap.



You wouldn't have to prove that a god exists you just have to show evidence to suggest there is a god. The fact that there is complex life doesn't not mean there is a god. We have a lots of evidence supporting evolution yet none supporting creationism.

edited to add:
You seem to think because we can't explain everything that there must be a god. Historically god has always been the catch all for everything we don't understand. As we learn more and more about the world around us humans attribute less and less to god. I think it's unreasonable and short sighted to simply attribute anything we don't understand to some god that we have no evidence of and it's also the lazy way out. It basically puts a stop to scientific advancement. Imagine if no one ever questioned the belief that the earth was flat or that the earth revolved around the sun. These were beliefs that Christianity really wanted to hold onto and considered it blasphemy to suggest anything different.

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You wouldn't have to prove that a god exists you just have to show evidence to suggest there is a god. The fact that there is complex life doesn't not mean there is a god. We have a lots of evidence supporting evolution yet none supporting creationism.

edited to add:
You seem to think because we can't explain everything that there must be a god. Historically god has always been the catch all for everything we don't understand. As we learn more and more about the world around us humans attribute less and less to god. I think it's unreasonable and short sighted to simply attribute anything we don't understand to some god that we have no evidence of and it's also the lazy way out. It basically puts a stop to scientific advancement. Imagine if no one ever questioned the belief that the earth was flat or that the earth revolved around the sun. These were beliefs that Christianity really wanted to hold onto and considered it blasphemy to suggest anything different.



Theories of complexity are not limited to evolution but to the entire structure of the universe. Science has no explanation for why complexity occurs. The only problem with waiting for somebody to prove God exists is that your life is ticking away, and you are losing valuable opportunities to redeem the time you have been given. Acknowledging God and growing in grace is not a hindrance to scientific discovery.


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