religious descriminitation

[nigel99 402]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/stoke_and_staffordshire/10596808.stm

Is this right? Personally I think that if this advice is followed it is a step down the road towards the UK implementing Islamic law (long term of course - not in the next few years).

Alternatively we will be hamstrung where nothing can happen because we are so busy "respecting" each and every religious quirk.

I think that public funded schools should not be bound to religious considerations but that communities should be free to set up and fund their own schools if it is such a big thing.

Lastly I realise that this is just guidance from a local council and not law.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JohnRich 4]

"Swimming lessons in some Staffordshire schools should stop during Ramadan to ensure Muslim pupils "do not swallow water", a council has suggested. Stoke-on-Trent City Council has issued an 11-page Ramadan guide for schools to help pupils who may be fasting when the school year starts in September. It said swimming was acceptable to Muslims but posed a high risk of swallowing water that may break a fast."

Um, how about they just let those Muslim students sit-out those in-pool lessons, but allow all the other kids to continue as normal. There's no reason to punish everyone, because of the religious beliefs of a few.

This reminds me of "blue laws" which used to close hardware and auto parts stores on Sundays where I grew up, because the religious folks believed Sunday was to be a day of rest, and therefore no one should be allowed to purchase work items. Thankfully, they got away from that.

[champu 1]

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"The overriding consideration should be that children do not feel disadvantaged in school activities because of their religious observance," the council added.

So, an argument both ways on this...

On one hand, the few scheduling considerations [swimming, sex ed, and exams] could probably be taken into account without too much hassle, and as long as at the end of the year the content hasn't changed it doesn't really affect other students.

On the other hand, if your religion involves practices that legitimately do put you at a disadvantage (like believing in creationism, etc.) then society owes it to you to make these disadvantages apparent.

[Bolas 5]

Kids in public school all need to be treated consistently, however this does not mean altering programs for all for one groups activities they do for their imaginary friend.

Let the kids/parents choose if they want to participate in swimming.

If they don't want to do sex-ed, that's fine as their is probably an opt out for that too.

Changing exam schedules? Sorry kids, guess you'll need to drink coffee or Red Bull that month.

Why are we more tolerant of Islam (the religion that has been the source of the most violence recently) than all the others?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[TKE_440 0]

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Why are we more tolerant of Islam

Because the sqeeky wheel gets the oil... enough until it becomes PC, under the guise of sensitivity and tolerance.

[nigel99 402]

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Kids in public school all need to be treated consistently, however this does not mean altering programs for all for one groups activities they do for their imaginary friend.

Let the kids/parents choose if they want to participate in swimming.

If they don't want to do sex-ed, that's fine as their is probably an opt out for that too.

Changing exam schedules? Sorry kids, guess you'll need to drink coffee or Red Bull that month.

Why are we more tolerant of Islam (the religion that has been the source of the most violence recently) than all the others?

Drinking coffee or redbull? They are fasting don't forget

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Bolas 5]

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Kids in public school all need to be treated consistently, however this does not mean altering programs for all for one groups activities they do for their imaginary friend.

Let the kids/parents choose if they want to participate in swimming.

If they don't want to do sex-ed, that's fine as their is probably an opt out for that too.

Changing exam schedules? Sorry kids, guess you'll need to drink coffee or Red Bull that month.

Why are we more tolerant of Islam (the religion that has been the source of the most violence recently) than all the others?

Drinking coffee or redbull? They are fasting don't forget

Guess they gotta load up before the sunrise.

Meth isn't food, right?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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Why are we more tolerant of Islam

Because the sqeeky wheel gets the oil... enough until it becomes PC, under the guise of sensitivity and tolerance.

Ah yes, right and wrong no longer matter, it's all who bitches the most.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[nigel99 402]

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Kids in public school all need to be treated consistently, however this does not mean altering programs for all for one groups activities they do for their imaginary friend.

Let the kids/parents choose if they want to participate in swimming.

If they don't want to do sex-ed, that's fine as their is probably an opt out for that too.

Changing exam schedules? Sorry kids, guess you'll need to drink coffee or Red Bull that month.

Why are we more tolerant of Islam (the religion that has been the source of the most violence recently) than all the others?

Drinking coffee or redbull? They are fasting don't forget

Guess they gotta load up before the sunrise.

Meth isn't food, right?

You know I was quite impressed a muslim girl in France got "inventive" as the new french laws forbid the headscarf etc at school - islamic law said she couldn't show her HAIR, so she simply shaved it all off. I like the lateral thinking and was quite impressed.
Perhaps we could setup business providing intravenous drips for muslims during ramadan?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[TKE_440 0]

What?

What does right and wrong have to do with this? One argument, two sides. Both sides feel their position is the right one. To qualify right and wrong is inane.

My point is there is a system in place. One group decides to "bitch" more than the other, then that system gets changed. It is done under then pretense of "sensitivity".
What about the group that does not want anything to change? Because it would not be recognized as the PC thing to do, then it is "wrong" to feel that changing it is a little one sided?
But yes, the group that bitches more and louder gets more change. That I am sure we can agree on.
But tell me Bolas, what is wrong about not wanting to change an entire swimming schedule? What is wrong about not altering entire class tests?

[Bolas 5]

Well if this were in the US, it could be argued as a separation of church and state issue.

Islam is sorta the "new kid" religion in many areas of the world and are arguing for the same sort of concessions many areas have already gave Judeo Christian religions, which is understandable. I say rather than give yet another group special privileges we just revoke for all and treat all the same.

It's sorta like the gay marriage debate. I'm fine with not allowing them to "marry" as long as there is some sort of new equivalent civil union or something for all.

When you have a group or groups getting special privileges and another group comes along demanding the same treatment, there are two courses of action:
1. Give that group the same.
2. Remove special treatment for all.

I just prefer the latter as the more groups one tries to appease, the more complicated it gets.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[rehmwa 2]

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When you have a group or groups getting special privileges and another group comes along demanding the same treatment, there are two courses of action:
1. Give that group the same.
2. Remove special treatment for all.

I just prefer the latter as the more groups one tries to appease, the more complicated it gets.

why, if one applied this to all aspects of governance, we'd have simple laws, we'd treat individuals based on their accomplishments and personalities and character, there would be little reason to for people to create pissy little divisive groups

how horrible


for politicians

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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the more groups one tries to appease, the more complicated it gets.

and the more votes one can garner and the more people you can royally screw

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TKE_440 0]

We are pretty much saying the same thing, and I do agree with you.
What I was just saying is whatever the topic and/or group, the ones who are louder usually come out ahead. That is democracy. You campaign, you get the votes, you get your way.
When it comes to being PC about it though, it definitely shows that many side step and just agree to seem sensitive and tolerant.
Example per your requirements... (1. Give that group the same. 2. Remove special treatment for all. )
Southpark: They make fun of all and treat no one group special. However, how much special treatment is given because some Muslims voiced out much more than any Christian group upset over Jesus Christ using his halo has a lethal boomerang.
With the case in the link from the OP, everyone must conform due to the practice of Islam?
If I have to start calling Christmas Break "Winter Break" to seem PC to all non Christians, than being Muslim will be awarded no special allowances over non Muslims.
It will always remain that our country was founded with Christian beliefs, resulting in many holidays and concessions revolving around them. More often there are more cases of religious being separated from the state, which could be argued for good or bad. However, if this were in the US, then I say fine, allow Muslims the same concessions, but only the same. Let's not go out of our way to benefit one group over another only to show sensitivity...

[Andy9o8 2]

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Well if this were in the US, it could be argued as a separation of church and state issue.

Islam is sorta the "new kid" religion in many areas of the world and are arguing for the same sort of concessions many areas have already gave Judeo Christian religions, which is understandable. I say rather than give yet another group special privileges we just revoke for all and treat all the same.

It's sorta like the gay marriage debate. I'm fine with not allowing them to "marry" as long as there is some sort of new equivalent civil union or something for all.

When you have a group or groups getting special privileges and another group comes along demanding the same treatment, there are two courses of action:
1. Give that group the same.
2. Remove special treatment for all.

I just prefer the latter as the more groups one tries to appease, the more complicated it gets.

One logical consequence that extends from what you propose is that, for example, all public schools and government offices would be open for business on Christmas and Thanksgiving. Good luck selling that.

[Bolas 5]

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We are pretty much saying the same thing, and I do agree with you.
What I was just saying is whatever the topic and/or group, the ones who are louder usually come out ahead. That is democracy. You campaign, you get the votes, you get your way.
When it comes to being PC about it though, it definitely shows that many side step and just agree to seem sensitive and tolerant.
Example per your requirements... (1. Give that group the same. 2. Remove special treatment for all. )
Southpark: They make fun of all and treat no one group special. However, how much special treatment is given because some Muslims voiced out much more than any Christian group upset over Jesus Christ using his halo has a lethal boomerang.
With the case in the link from the OP, everyone must conform due to the practice of Islam?
If I have to start calling Christmas Break "Winter Break" to seem PC to all non Christians, than being Muslim will be awarded no special allowances over non Muslims.
It will always remain that our country was founded with Christian beliefs, resulting in many holidays and concessions revolving around them. More often there are more cases of religious being separated from the state, which could be argued for good or bad. However, if this were in the US, then I say fine, allow Muslims the same concessions, but only the same. Let's not go out of our way to benefit one group over another only to show sensitivity...

The SouthPark example was not Trey and Matt's decision, but the networks. They have been very vocal in their displeasure with it. It also shows that there isn't a level playing field, nor there should be until the more radical segments are brought in line or publicly shunned and denounced as misinterpreting the teachings of their "peaceful" religion.

How does one define the same as the fundamentals are so different in Islam and in most cases, far more involved?

What about the next religion that comes along and says that one of it's holy practices is to not speak or read for a week, so all lessons during that time must be oral. Do we make concessions for them too? What does one do if different groups practices start conflicting?

Best to get out of all of it now. Call it Winter Break, Spring Break, etc. If a religious group has an issue with it, they can either deal with it or start their own schools.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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One logical consequence that extends from what you propose is that, for example, all public schools and government offices would be open for business on Christmas and Thanksgiving. Good luck selling that.

Thanksgiving is not really a religious holiday, and there is proof that it actually happened.

As for Christmas, just change it to Winter Holiday and give people the option of floating when they take it.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[TKE_440 0]

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How does one define the same as the fundamentals are so different in Islam and in most cases, far more involved?

You don't define them as the same, you only afford them the same. I am not Muslim, so I do not need to conform to the rules of Islam, regardless if they find it offensive or not.

I think I mentioned it earlier, but again quickly, our society, thus our holidays (several of them anyways) were based on religious grounds. There has been a rise in person's opting out of the Christian faith, and feel it needs to be pulled away from the state; hence, Winter Break vs. Christmas Break.

If Christians suddenly felt that they need to not speak or read for a week, would concessions be made for them? Absolutely not. We would recognize their right to to do so, allow them to practice, and everyone else would continue on with the agendas already laid out in the calender year.

Why would we need to even discuss changing an entire curriculum over religious grounds in public schools?

[pirana 0]

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When you have a group or groups getting special privileges and another group comes along demanding the same treatment, there are two courses of action:
1. Give that group the same.
2. Remove special treatment for all.

I just prefer the latter as the more groups one tries to appease, the more complicated it gets.

why, if one applied this to all aspects of governance, we'd have simple laws, we'd treat individuals based on their accomplishments and personalities and character, there would be little reason to for people to create pissy little divisive groups

how horrible


for politicians

I've often thought it the ultimate hypocrisy that people demanding equal treatment are almost always asking for special treatment.

I like the opening for the new acronym - PLDG's.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Andy9o8 2]

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If Christians suddenly felt that they need to not speak or read for a week, would concessions be made for them? Absolutely not. We would recognize their right to to do so, allow them to practice, and everyone else would continue on with the agendas already laid out in the calender year.

You need to think outside your own cultural box, i.e.: On the other hand (to your point), if Christianity had always had and celebrated a week-long holiday in which people abstained from speaking and reading, it's very conceivable that most of the countries of Europe and the Western Hemisphere would have always had that week-long holiday off, and you would have grown up in a society in which that was simply taken for granted - much as schools and offices being closed on Christmas, even if it falls on a Wednesday, is taken for granted in your country.

The point being, Ramadan is nothing new; it's over a thousand years old - it's just that the increase in the number and prominence of Muslim populations outside "the Muslim world" is relatively new-ish. And since all social fabric constantly evolves, and since much of that evolution is influenced by population migration, it's not unreasonable to expect, and accept, that Muslim migration will inevitably contribute to that. And as the terrain changes, sometime ya gotta roll with it.

[Bolas 5]

Or simply stop all religious concessions in government.

Let people be whatever they want to be and practice what they want to practice, but no longer make concessions for it.

Most of the world is in massive debt. Time to cut all of this "special" treatment.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[nigel99 402]

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If Christians suddenly felt that they need to not speak or read for a week, would concessions be made for them? Absolutely not. We would recognize their right to to do so, allow them to practice, and everyone else would continue on with the agendas already laid out in the calender year.

You need to think outside your own cultural box, i.e.: On the other hand (to your point), if Christianity had always had and celebrated a week-long holiday in which people abstained from speaking and reading, it's very conceivable that most of the countries of Europe and the Western Hemisphere would have always had that week-long holiday off, and you would have grown up in a society in which that was simply taken for granted - much as schools and offices being closed on Christmas, even if it falls on a Wednesday, is taken for granted in your country.

The point being, Ramadan is nothing new; it's over a thousand years old - it's just that the increase in the number and prominence of Muslim populations outside "the Muslim world" is relatively new-ish. And since all social fabric constantly evolves, and since much of that evolution is influenced by population migration, it's not unreasonable to expect, and accept, that Muslim migration will inevitably contribute to that. And as the terrain changes, sometime ya gotta roll with it.

However we do not stop for Chinese new year, and the Chinese work through our Christmas/New Year. I am pretty sure Islamic countries do not stop for our Christmas, Easter etc but they do for Islamic holidays. I don't think that the average Christian is offended by or even considers it "their right" when in one of those nations. Ultimately the UK has a Christian heritage and our holidays are biased in that direction - I don't believe it is wrong for that heritage to be honoured in favour of others.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[TKE_440 0]

"You need to think outside your own cultural box"

Are you serious? I need to think outside my cultural box? What an asinine thing to say.

Your right though. People did take for granted in MY country having Christmas off. I guess I owe you an apology that MY country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs. However, as things "progress" in MY country, Christianity is falling away from governance. So instead of being free from religion, you would just be happy to replace it?

The point being, if you expect freedom of religion from one group, then we should expect it from the other.

BTW, this has absolutely nothing to do with my "cultural box," i.e. equal freedoms is equal freedoms.

How did you get to the conclusion that I was Christian? Not once did I say I was. You assumed that. And you know what happens when you assume, right Andy?

[Andy9o8 2]

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Or simply stop all religious concessions in government.

Let people be whatever they want to be and practice what they want to practice, but no longer make concessions for it.

Most of the world is in massive debt. Time to cut all of this "special" treatment.

Fine. Then, as I suggested above, let's increase the workplace-to-productivity ratio by having everyone go to work and school on Christ's Mass, Thanks-be-to-God-giving and the states in which Good Friday is an official holiday.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Gosh. I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. When you're less angry, maybe we can talk.