What does college mean?

[Coreece 189]

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I can see that, I can usually sniff them out.

That's not good enough...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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So I'm seriously considering a mech.eng. degree myself, 15 years after I walked out of high school and did just fine on my own. I simply do not have the in-depth ed needed to BE an engineer and I know it.

That is exactly the situation I was in at one time. Go for it! You won't regret it!
Well, not after you get your degree. I can only promise you that there will be times when you will be ready to say "fuck it" and give up on your goal, there will be times when you have to decide whether to eat or buy books, and there will be times when you feel you have to be the biggest fool ever for pursuing a degree at your age. But I will promise you right now that, once you walk across that stage and receive your diploma, you will be hard pressed to find a more gratifying moment in your life. You will need all the emotional support and encouragement your friends and family can give since it will feel like climbing a slippery slope where you slide back two feet for every three you move forward, but as long as you have the resolve you CAN do it!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[airtwardo 6]

That's because they were 'taught' how to fix it...you 'learned' on you own.

I love going to guys like you to get work done..."Hell, here's yer problem" blink and it's fixed!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[pirana 0]

Agreed; many jobs do not require a college degree, but even for those jobs employers often give an edge to people that have demonstrated good abilities to observe objectively, assimilate knowledge, analyze info, draw conclusions, and execute.

Those things are usually aquired by college graduates, even those with liberal arts degrees. Yeah, there are skaters and cheaters; as there are everywhere. It's no reason to dis education in general.

And that topic usually attracts the we-don't-need-no-stinking-degree crowd, the crowd that is proud to propogate ignorance by passing it on to their offspring, and the crowd that likes to debate the measures of intelligence without any positive contribution.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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So I'm seriously considering a mech.eng. degree myself, 15 years after I walked out of high school and did just fine on my own. I simply do not have the in-depth ed needed to BE an engineer and I know it. There is only one way to GET that level of education: School.
Point I'm making here Bolas is, you wanna play in the big leagues, college would appear to be the only way... and I'm a guy who disdained the idea for half his career.
-B

I think you would not regret it one bit. Based on your account, the real world experience you have, coupled with a degree, should make you extremely valuable. I would not worry too much about Bolas' fear of arguing with the profs if I were you; your profs will probably be willing to hire you to work in their labs fixing stuff for them while you're in school!

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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That's because they were 'taught' how to fix it...you 'learned' on you own.

I love going to guys like you to get work done..."Hell, here's yer problem" blink and it's fixed!

The years I spent working before going to college taught me how to assess a situation and fix the problem. The time spent in the classroom getting my degree taught me to find the root cause of the problem and change things so that it wouldn't happen again, as well as to prevent problems from happening in the first place.
Many "engineering disasters" have been blamed on the engineers who designed the structure when the real cause was somebody who felt they knew more than the engineer and changed something without consulting the engineer. Many, many lives have been lost because of those who learned all they needed to know without bothering with a formal education.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kallend 1,621]

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That's because they were 'taught' how to fix it...you 'learned' on you own.

I love going to guys like you to get work done..."Hell, here's yer problem" blink and it's fixed!

The years I spent working before going to college taught me how to assess a situation and fix the problem. The time spent in the classroom getting my degree taught me to find the root cause of the problem and change things so that it wouldn't happen again, as well as to prevent problems from happening in the first place.
Many "engineering disasters" have been blamed on the engineers who designed the structure when the real cause was somebody who felt they knew more than the engineer and changed something without consulting the engineer.

The exploding Ford Pinto gas tank, the Challenger disaster, and the Kansas City Hyatt disaster come immediately to mind when "practical" people second guess engineers.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BobMoore 0]

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The exploding Ford Pinto gas tank, the Challenger disaster, and the Kansas City Hyatt disaster come immediately to mind when "practical" people second guess engineers.

I recall all three of those news-worthy episodes. I don't recall any mention in the news that these events were caused by "practical" people second guessing engineers.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[kallend 1,621]

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The exploding Ford Pinto gas tank, the Challenger disaster, and the Kansas City Hyatt disaster come immediately to mind when "practical" people second guess engineers.

I recall all three of those news-worthy episodes. I don't recall any mention in the news that these events were caused by "practical" people second guessing engineers.

Either your recollection is poor or, more likely, the news you read was incomplete. Disaster sells newspapers, engineering analysis doesn't.

EXAMPLE.. The the walkway supports on the K-C Hyatt walkway were changed at the last minute to make construction easier. Unfortunately no-one thought to consult the design engineer about how this changed the stresses on the beams where the hangars passed through (the stresses DOUBLED)..

EXAMPLE. Before any Pintos were produced Ford's ENGINEERS notified management that there was potential for Pinto gas tank explosions due to penetration by exposed bolts on the differential, because they had already encountered and fixed a similar problem with the European Ford Capri. A fix they proposed was to install a part costing Ford $ 6.65 that would have protected the tank from rupture due to the exposed bolts and would have gone a long way toward reducing the possibility of explosion. However, Ford MANAGERS, in their wisdom, did not choose to implement this fix.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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That's because they were 'taught' how to fix it...you 'learned' on you own.

I love going to guys like you to get work done..."Hell, here's yer problem" blink and it's fixed!

The years I spent working before going to college taught me how to assess a situation and fix the problem. The time spent in the classroom getting my degree taught me to find the root cause of the problem and change things so that it wouldn't happen again, as well as to prevent problems from happening in the first place.
Many "engineering disasters" have been blamed on the engineers who designed the structure when the real cause was somebody who felt they knew more than the engineer and changed something without consulting the engineer.

The exploding Ford Pinto gas tank, the Challenger disaster, and the Kansas City Hyatt disaster come immediately to mind when "practical" people second guess engineers.

I can think of a couple pipelines that ruptured because the welder felt his experience made his judgement of a weld's quality superior to that of the engineer who wrote the weld procedure. In one instance the weld was made, inspected, and passed yet the welder wasn't happy so he laid an additional (very short) pass at a much lower heat input. This dramatically changed the properties of the weld in that small area and led to failure of the entire joint.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhaig 0]

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The exploding Ford Pinto gas tank, the Challenger disaster, and the Kansas City Hyatt disaster come immediately to mind when "practical" people second guess engineers.

I knew an engineer that worked on the SRBs before challenger. Unless you have information he didn't (or at least what he explained to me 20-ish years ago) wrt a "practical person" making an unreviewed modification to the design, the failure was due to a factor not compensated for nor tested by the engineers.

edit to clarify: yes, the engineers were concerned about the cold and mission control over-ruled them. But This man's explanation was that the engineers (of which he was one) never considered cold weather operation when designing that seal.

I know nada about the pinto gas tank issue and what caused it. But the Hyatt walkway failure was the direct result of failing to consult the engineers regarding an on-site modification to the design (because the design was not possible to construct). Or at least that's the way a KSU engineering professor explained it to me in a class.

--
Rob

[kallend 1,621]

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That's because they were 'taught' how to fix it...you 'learned' on you own.

I love going to guys like you to get work done..."Hell, here's yer problem" blink and it's fixed!

The years I spent working before going to college taught me how to assess a situation and fix the problem. The time spent in the classroom getting my degree taught me to find the root cause of the problem and change things so that it wouldn't happen again, as well as to prevent problems from happening in the first place.
Many "engineering disasters" have been blamed on the engineers who designed the structure when the real cause was somebody who felt they knew more than the engineer and changed something without consulting the engineer.

The exploding Ford Pinto gas tank, the Challenger disaster, and the Kansas City Hyatt disaster come immediately to mind when "practical" people second guess engineers.

I can think of a couple pipelines that ruptured because the welder felt his experience made his judgement of a weld's quality superior to that of the engineer who wrote the weld procedure. In one instance the weld was made, inspected, and passed yet the welder wasn't happy so he laid an additional (very short) pass at a much lower heat input. This dramatically changed the properties of the weld in that small area and led to failure of the entire joint.

Yep, And another for much the same reason; the weld protocol wasn't followed by the "practical" folks.

The Kings Bridge collapse in Melbourne, Australia, had similar causes.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

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The exploding Ford Pinto gas tank, the Challenger disaster, and the Kansas City Hyatt disaster come immediately to mind when "practical" people second guess engineers.

I knew an engineer that worked on the SRBs before challenger....

edit to clarify: yes, the engineers were concerned about the cold and mission control over-ruled them. But This man's explanation was that the engineers (of which he was one) never considered cold weather operation when designing that seal.

Yep. The engineers warned against launch in untested situation outside the design parameters but were over-ruled by the management team.

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But the Hyatt walkway failure was the direct result of failing to consult the engineers regarding an on-site modification to the design (because the design was not possible to construct).

Not impossible, just time consuming

The lesson here is that if the engineers tell you that something is not a good idea, you shouldn't over-rule them for the sake of a few dollars.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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...the engineers (of which he was one) never considered cold weather operation when designing that seal.

It would be impossible to test and verify limits of operation for all circumstances. In this instance cold weather operation was not tested for because it was highly unlikely there would be a launch at freezing or near freezing temps, and the engineers knew that any launch outside tested and verified parameters would be closely scrutinized, which it was. Unfortunately, people who felt they knew more about the operation and safety of the o-rings than those who designed and tested them overruled the engineers and gave the go ahead for launch.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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That's because they were 'taught' how to fix it...you 'learned' on you own.

I love going to guys like you to get work done..."Hell, here's yer problem" blink and it's fixed!

The years I spent working before going to college taught me how to assess a situation and fix the problem. The time spent in the classroom getting my degree taught me to find the root cause of the problem and change things so that it wouldn't happen again, as well as to prevent problems from happening in the first place.
Many "engineering disasters" have been blamed on the engineers who designed the structure when the real cause was somebody who felt they knew more than the engineer and changed something without consulting the engineer.

The exploding Ford Pinto gas tank, the Challenger disaster, and the Kansas City Hyatt disaster come immediately to mind when "practical" people second guess engineers.

I can think of a couple pipelines that ruptured because the welder felt his experience made his judgement of a weld's quality superior to that of the engineer who wrote the weld procedure. In one instance the weld was made, inspected, and passed yet the welder wasn't happy so he laid an additional (very short) pass at a much lower heat input. This dramatically changed the properties of the weld in that small area and led to failure of the entire joint.

Yep, And another for much the same reason; the weld protocol wasn't followed by the "practical" folks.

The Kings Bridge collapse in Melbourne, Australia, had similar causes.

Another was the Alexander L. Kielland drill rig. It collapsed and took 123 men with it when a seemingly non-critical weld contained a microscopic hydrogen induced crack that opened up from cyclic stress, leading to catastrophic failure.
I cite that incident frequently since it is a perfect example of what can happen when somebody doesn't follow protocol and procedure.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhaig 0]

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Not impossible, just time consuming

now... I know we're splitting hairs wrt thread topic, but what I was shown was designs that called for a section of a rod to be threaded in the middle where the walkway was to be attached to it, but not threaded above and below that section.

Cutting threads into the rod there isn't impossible, but putting a nut on that section of threading is.

--
Rob

[rhaig 0]

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...the engineers (of which he was one) never considered cold weather operation when designing that seal.

It would be impossible to test and verify limits of operation for all circumstances. In this instance cold weather operation was not tested for because it was highly unlikely there would be a launch at freezing or near freezing temps, and the engineers knew that any launch outside tested and verified parameters would be closely scrutinized, which it was. Unfortunately, people who felt they knew more about the operation and safety of the o-rings than those who designed and tested them overruled the engineers and gave the go ahead for launch.

I suppose this was just that my friend's dad didn't want to blame others for the fault in the design. Because we all agree on what happened.

--
Rob

[kallend 1,621]

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Not impossible, just time consuming

now... I know we're splitting hairs wrt thread topic, but what I was shown was designs that called for a section of a rod to be threaded in the middle where the walkway was to be attached to it, but not threaded above and below that section.

Cutting threads into the rod there isn't impossible, but putting a nut on that section of threading is.

That is because the construction company was working from a schematic, which was another of the problems.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,380]

>An engineer definitely shouldn't worry about how something looks or alter
>their data to change that.

>But an accountant, whose purpose is to deal with money, shouldn't they
>be willing to at least try to take all factors into account that may effect
>money?

They should take all factors into account that fall within the scope of their work, as should engineers.

It is an accountant's job to accurately tabulate actual costs. That may include things like capital equipment costs, amortization, advertising costs etc. I have never seen an accounting analysis that includes things like "the cost of being mean to people" or "the goodwill profit of donations." That is generally decided on a much higher level. Same with engineering analyses.

[rhaig 0]

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Not impossible, just time consuming

now... I know we're splitting hairs wrt thread topic, but what I was shown was designs that called for a section of a rod to be threaded in the middle where the walkway was to be attached to it, but not threaded above and below that section.

Cutting threads into the rod there isn't impossible, but putting a nut on that section of threading is.

That is because the construction company was working from a schematic, which was another of the problems.

as opposed to having the engineer on site?

what I see as a problem is having design engineers without sufficient field experience to know what can't be done. Even though he may have been a PE, he didn't have the practical knowledge to know that just because it was drawn right and provided the calculated load and factor of safety, that it couldn't be done.

--
Rob

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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...the engineers (of which he was one) never considered cold weather operation when designing that seal.

It would be impossible to test and verify limits of operation for all circumstances. In this instance cold weather operation was not tested for because it was highly unlikely there would be a launch at freezing or near freezing temps, and the engineers knew that any launch outside tested and verified parameters would be closely scrutinized, which it was. Unfortunately, people who felt they knew more about the operation and safety of the o-rings than those who designed and tested them overruled the engineers and gave the go ahead for launch.

I suppose this was just that my friend's dad didn't want to blame others for the fault in the design. Because we all agree on what happened.

There was no fault in the design. It was designed, tested, and constructed to operate withing a set of launch parameters provided by NASA. NASA launched outside those parameters against the warnings of those who designed the o-rings.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhaig 0]

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There was no fault in the design. It was designed, tested, and constructed to operate withing a set of launch parameters provided by NASA. NASA launched outside those parameters against the warnings of those who designed the o-rings.

look... one of the engineers on the project told me he thought it was a fault in the design.

That's all I'm saying.

--
Rob

[billvon 2,380]

>I know we're splitting hairs wrt thread topic, but what I was shown was
>designs that called for a section of a rod to be threaded in the middle
> where the walkway was to be attached to it, but not threaded above and
>below that section. Cutting threads into the rod there isn't impossible,
>but putting a nut on that section of threading is.

IIRC, the big problem was that the original plans called out that the entire rod below the fourth floor be threaded. The contractor thought that hoisting the walkways into place would result in damage to the threads unless they were well protected, which would have been expensive.

So they used two rods to each level instead, which ended up not working well.

[rhaig 0]

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IIRC, the big problem was that the original plans called out that the entire rod below the fourth floor be threaded. The contractor thought that hoisting the walkways into place would result in damage to the threads unless they were well protected, which would have been expensive.


That's not what we reviewed in this class. This was one of the guys in the investigative team (or so he told us).

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So they used two rods to each level instead, which ended up not working well.

yeah, the piece supporting the walkway was designed to hold the weight of one walkway (with factor of safety) and the way they modified it, the point on the bracket where the top walkway rod connected to the top walkway bracket ended up supporting the weight of both walkways. Add a bunch of people (some reports have them dancing too) and down they came.

--
Rob

[kallend 1,621]

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IIRC, the big problem was that the original plans called out that the entire rod below the fourth floor be threaded. The contractor thought that hoisting the walkways into place would result in damage to the threads unless they were well protected, which would have been expensive.


That's not what we reviewed in this class. This was one of the guys in the investigative team (or so he told us).

My department was involved in the investigation. Bill is quite correct (as was I in my previous post).

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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