kallend 1,623 #126 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteI believe that the money is the most imnportant part of the equasion here. If the monies have to stay here - not as many would want to sneak in.How do you propose keeping money in the US? Wendy P. I don't know. That is why I said "Somehow". Do you disagree that it would make a difference and would be a prominent factor when making the decision to try to breach the border illegally? The biggest deterrent would be knowing that there are no jobs waiting for you and no employer will hire you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #127 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI believe that the money is the most imnportant part of the equasion here. If the monies have to stay here - not as many would want to sneak in.How do you propose keeping money in the US? Wendy P. I don't know. That is why I said "Somehow". Do you disagree that it would make a difference and would be a prominent factor when making the decision to try to breach the border illegally? The biggest deterrent would be knowing that there are no jobs waiting for you and no employer will hire you. I almost completely agree. But it is NOT ENOUGH to do just that! Some will come for the chance just to propogate and have a child as a citizen. Some will come to just live with their family and be a drain on our cociety. Some will come to join the gangs and be an even bigger problem. Jobs are not the only reason that people come to this country illegally.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,120 #128 June 9, 2010 In the people world, it's common to say that each person can only change themself; they can't change anyone else. All they can do is make themselves happy, and maybe that will incentivize the other person to change. Forcing change (when one has the means) is rarely long-lasting. Because governments are made of people, this isn't a bad starting point. So I think that the issues with making it illegal to send money out of the US are large enough to make it a nonstarter. What do we do with people who take US currency outside? What do we do about foreign trade? Do we buy massive amounts of other countries' currency so that we can pay them when we buy their goods? How about all the dollars that are already there? No, we can only change the US. We can secure our borders (which to do completely would be incredibly expensive -- just imagine trying to make your own house completely burglar-proof, and generalizing that to several thousand miles of border), or we can make the conditions here less attractive. Reducing the employment opportunities for illegal workers is the best bang-for-your-buck way to do it. The downside is that employers might have to pay more for services performed by citizens. So either they'll outsource them to other countries (if possible), charge more for their services, which will reduce demand for many of them, and people will bitch about it. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,120 #129 June 9, 2010 No matter what, there is no way that we can keep every-fucking-illegal out. There are too many. The cost of doing so would destroy us. Just as the cost of keeping every-fucking-burglar out of your home would mean that you could never leave. For anything like this, you ahve to decide what is the cost/reward balance. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #130 June 9, 2010 Quote Reducing the employment opportunities for illegal workers is the best bang-for-your-buck way to do it. The downside is that employers might have to pay more for services performed by citizens. So either they'll outsource them to other countries (if possible), charge more for their services, which will reduce demand for many of them, and people will bitch about it. Wendy P. Another option, of course, is to grant amnesty to all of those illegals who are already here, are working productively, paying taxes, and have families, so that they can become citizens of the U.S. and benefit from the protections of the 14th amendment. Then, we don't have to spend as much resources on all the other options Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #131 June 9, 2010 Quote Quote Reducing the employment opportunities for illegal workers is the best bang-for-your-buck way to do it. The downside is that employers might have to pay more for services performed by citizens. So either they'll outsource them to other countries (if possible), charge more for their services, which will reduce demand for many of them, and people will bitch about it. Wendy P. Another option, of course, is to grant amnesty to all of those illegals who are already here, are working productively, paying taxes, and have families, so that they can become citizens of the U.S. and benefit from the protections of the 14th amendment. Then, we don't have to spend as much resources on all the other options But that wouldn't satisfy the punitive urges of the conservatives.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #132 June 9, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Reducing the employment opportunities for illegal workers is the best bang-for-your-buck way to do it. The downside is that employers might have to pay more for services performed by citizens. So either they'll outsource them to other countries (if possible), charge more for their services, which will reduce demand for many of them, and people will bitch about it. Wendy P. Another option, of course, is to grant amnesty to all of those illegals who are already here, are working productively, paying taxes, and have families, so that they can become citizens of the U.S. and benefit from the protections of the 14th amendment. Then, we don't have to spend as much resources on all the other options But that wouldn't satisfy the punitive urges of the conservatives. It would make the racists extremely unhappy too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #133 June 9, 2010 Quote Another option, of course, is to grant amnesty to all of those illegals who are already here, are working productively, paying taxes, and have families, so that they can become citizens of the U.S. and benefit from the protections of the 14th amendment. Then, we don't have to spend as much resources on all the other options These frequent amnesty programs only increase the incentives to cross the border. It's also quite unfair to those who try to immigrate by established process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #134 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteI believe that the money is the most imnportant part of the equasion here. If the monies have to stay here - not as many would want to sneak in.How do you propose keeping money in the US? Wendy P. I don't know. That is why I said "Somehow". Do you disagree that it would make a difference and would be a prominent factor when making the decision to try to breach the border illegally? Restricting people's ability to use their own money as they wish? Surely you see the core freedom issue with this. Not sure it would have the desired effect either. Rather than one person coming, working and sending money home, now the whole family would try to come over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #135 June 9, 2010 Quote Restricting people's ability to use their own money as they wish? Surely you see the core freedom issue with this. REALLY? . . . and what is a government program funded by taxes?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #136 June 9, 2010 Quote Quote Another option, of course, is to grant amnesty to all of those illegals who are already here, are working productively, paying taxes, and have families, so that they can become citizens of the U.S. and benefit from the protections of the 14th amendment. Then, we don't have to spend as much resources on all the other options These frequent amnesty programs only increase the incentives to cross the border. It's also quite unfair to those who try to immigrate by established process. True ... that is why the most important option by far is the one that we are not doing: enforce the existing laws against hiring illegals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #137 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuote Restricting people's ability to use their own money as they wish? Surely you see the core freedom issue with this. REALLY? . . . and what is a government program funded by taxes? part of the social compact between citizens and it's government. You voted yesterday, right? People want government services and those cost money. But telling people they can't spend their money on a political movement, or to send it to some monk in Timbuktu...that's been consistent held to be a violation of First Amendment rights (see Buckley v Valeo as first one). If you represent the viewpoint of a less intrusive government, this is a no brainer. Not all freedoms are free. Gun rights have costs. So do speech rights. The upsides outweigh the costs. Private moneys sent to other nations represents a significant portion of America's foreign aid, but in this case, it's paid by those who are interested enough in the cause to put their own money in it. Was it wrong to send money to Haiti or Thailand? As discussed, the most effective way to discourage illegal immigration is at the point of employment. I don't think you ignore the border, but you don't overspend here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #138 June 9, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Another option, of course, is to grant amnesty to all of those illegals who are already here, are working productively, paying taxes, and have families, so that they can become citizens of the U.S. and benefit from the protections of the 14th amendment. Then, we don't have to spend as much resources on all the other options These frequent amnesty programs only increase the incentives to cross the border. It's also quite unfair to those who try to immigrate by established process. True ... that is why the most important option by far is the one that we are not doing: enforce the existing laws against hiring illegals. So you agree that it is opk that illegal aliens are here, you just don't want them working.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #139 June 9, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Another option, of course, is to grant amnesty to all of those illegals who are already here, are working productively, paying taxes, and have families, so that they can become citizens of the U.S. and benefit from the protections of the 14th amendment. Then, we don't have to spend as much resources on all the other options These frequent amnesty programs only increase the incentives to cross the border. It's also quite unfair to those who try to immigrate by established process. True ... that is why the most important option by far is the one that we are not doing: enforce the existing laws against hiring illegals. So you agree that it is opk that illegal aliens are here, you just don't want them working. No. I think illegal aliens are already here and working. They will keep coming and working as long as Americans hire them. If Americans don't think that is OK, they should stop hiring them if they don't want them to come. Doing things like modifying the 14th amendment to deny their U.S. - born children citizenship is fundamentally un-American. That was the topic of this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
