The war on illegal immigration

[captain1976 0]

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

Scroll down to 'Crime" Argues that no more crime is committed by illegals than by anyone else. And I agree. Why do you see more Mexicans? Because there are more Mexicans than 'hungarians'. There are more of them in emergency rooms and more of them are in jail and more of them are working on the farm for that matter.

Eastern Europeans also run crime syndicates in the USA; WHITE people with guns, who murder, rape and sell drugs and human beings and worse. But we passed a law that will likely NOT stop any of them because they look 'normal'

Emergency rooms are filled with WHITE people who do not pay their hospital bills, as well as illegals. I sat in the ER here in Zephyrhills and watched a "mexican' family deicde on what they could afford there and then PAID for it in cash.

It is simplay a paradigm that is not true. You actually ARE being racist when you segment one portion of the populace, or one color and blame societies problems on them without basing it on fact. So show me the facts

Welfare is the same way - all 'lazy black people' are on welfare, when in fact, most people on welfare are CHILDREN, and most women on welfare are WHITE.

Even if you took welfare completely out of the budget, we would save 1% of the total federal budget. I think we haev bigger fish to fry.

Are Mexican gangs running drugs and violence in our country? Yes they are. Is that bad? Yes it is. Do I want it to stop? Yes I do.

Legalize all the drugs that they are selling and the problem almost instantly goes away. We take their money away at the source and now they have nothing to do. Instead we spend billions trying to chase them around.

If you think that stopping some Mexican guy in Phoenix to ask for his ID is going to get rid of the gang problem, then ...... I have no idea what to say.....

TK,

I respect your views as I respect you, however the average illegal immigrant family uses $2,700/year more in services than it pays in taxes. Stats just a few years ago revealed this amounted to a $10.4 billion drain on the federal budget. Some of the greatest federal costs included: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

No question Easter Europeans are a big problem as well, but "those" criminal elements went through the immigration process and are actual legals in spite of their criminal ways.

I also agree with legalizing drugs. But the biggest lobby group in Washington "representing the correction guard unions" are keeping that from happening. Thats why I have only respect for laws that I makes sense to me.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[RonD1120 58]

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there are a lot of 'ifs' in that hypothetical situation. One, you assume that illegals get all kinds of govt assistance and I doubt that is true, given that most of those services require many forms of identification and such.

Many, if not most agencies of that kind have tightened up their requirements and screening - (have you tried to renew a drivers license lately?)

While illegals have no place in this country, the federal government has the job to do, not the local militia with the swastikas on their arms......

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The states have the authority to enact laws pertinent to the welfare of that state. The county sheriff is the final law enforcement officer in any state. Isn't the Nazi card a little over played?

Stopping people just because of what they look like to ask for ID is simply WRONG. What about the illegal UK, French, Hungarian people who all look 'white and normal'?

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I don't believe AZ or any other state is having a problem with those nationalities. AZ is dealing with their problem group. They have that right, by law.

The problem is solved by securing the borders. The borders get secured by patrols and troops. The government pays for that through TAXES. No one (it seems) in this country is willing to pay TAXES to the government, even if it means getting REAL work done, yet most complain that the government is not doing a good enough job.

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Not true, a lot of folks are paying taxes, heavy taxes.

The problem is simple to solve. We have 100,000 troops in foreign countries when they could be here guarding our borders. But once again, America and its politicians cannot see the forest for the trees.

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On this point, I agree with you.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tkhayes 125]

$10B? That is it? when we are spending $3,500B+ in the 2009 federal budget? 0.28% of the federal budget?

Ok then you are right, they cost us $10B/year. But I rest my case. Given what we go through in this country every year on everything else, this money is not even worth chasing down.

[turtlespeed 212]

ummm - the 3500+B is an unnecessary expenditure - the illegals cost our country that much per year - 10 years ago. How much do you figure that percentage was?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[ncjumpjunkie 0]

Here is an article from 2004,,,, EVERYONE PLEASE READ IT!!!!

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/24/dorf.police.id/

SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3
SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI

[Andy9o8 0]

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JOE vs. JOSE

Kinda says it all, doesn't it? Thanks for proving my point.

[kallend 1,623]

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I respect your views as I respect you, however the average illegal immigrant family uses $2,700/year more in services than it pays in taxes. Stats just a few years ago revealed this amounted to a $10.4 billion drain on the federal budget. Some of the greatest federal costs included: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

.

Do you have a source for those data? I hope it wasn't the unashamedly and admittedly biased Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), whose numbers don't agree with anyone else's.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 58]

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Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

So here's my challenge to you, given that you seem to be the icon representing the Christian contingent on here:

When Joe Legal and Jose Illegal turn up in the pews of the same church, and Jose Illegal is in a position to give three times as much money because of what you just wrote--will you stand up to the pastor and tell him/her that that is wrong?

No challenge at all. The answer is clear because it is two different issues. First, being in the country illegally is what it is, a matter of law. Second, the amount of donation or tithe, separate types of giving, is determined in the heart of the giver in accordance with his relationship to God.

2 Corinthians 9:7
Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 0]

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2 Corinthians 9:7
Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

"From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs."
-Karl Marx

[billvon 2,396]

>Do you have any idea how difficult that is. I mean it's not like you fill in a
>form and them pay a fee and suddenly you are legal.

And that's one of the fundamental problems. Make it easier for the law-abiding workers to come here, and harder for the criminals to come here, and most of the problem disappears.

[Lucky... 0]

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I challenge anyone who opposes AZ's law to actually investigate it and see what it says.

I've read it.

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it is pretty close to the same laws used to catch drug dealers and runners.

Ridiculous.

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They need probrable cause to ask someone for their papers.

ARS 11-1051

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

Challenge over, you lose. If I thought you understood to the slightest what the 4 standards of proof were, I get further into it.

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Besides, they are illegals. Yes, they are here illegally. I think they deserve human rights in every way but I dont care at all what their political views are. You dont live here, you are not supposed to be here.

OK, and when legal Mexican-Americans, esp born Mexican-Americans, not the good white people like you and me, not the bad brown people get harrassed constantly due this lowest Reasonable Suspicion, or as you errantly call it, probable cause, is that ok with you too?

Oh and here's this so you can read and understand it: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Also, you can even stop a brown person in a car, lowering the SOP (standard of proof) from Probable cause to reasonable suspicion in traffic violation cases. IOW's, brown people have their requirement for traffic stops at Reasonable Suspicion, whitey still at Probable Cause. Yea, nothing violative of that .

E. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, A PEACE OFFICER MAY LAWFULLY STOP
21 ANY PERSON WHO IS OPERATING A MOTOR VEHICLE IF THE OFFICER HAS REASONABLE
22 SUSPICION TO BELIEVE THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF ANY CIVIL TRAFFIC LAW AND
23 THIS SECTION.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Who said that "Illegal Immigrants" were all BROWN....They come in all colors and from other countries than just MEXICO....
I don't see anything wrong with asking ANYONE for there Identification. If you're not breaking the law it shouldn't matter if you have to show your ID/CITIZENSHIP.

How many people from the middle east are stopped and patted down for bombs??????????

This reminds me of the people that oppose public cameras being used by a city. They say that there privacy is being threatened and the only ones opposing are the ones breaking the law,,,,,,HEY PEOPLE You're in PUBLIC not PRIVATE,,,, and in PUBLIC any citizen can be made by the LAW to produce Identification...

>>>> Who said that "Illegal Immigrants" were all BROWN....They come in all colors and from other countries than just MEXICO....

If u wanna pretend this is for Canadian and European illegals, then go right ahead. And as the right says, over 1/2 of the illegals come thru Arizona; are they talking aboutthe French illegals coming thru? Don't insult my intelligence and I won't yours.

>>>> I don't see anything wrong with asking ANYONE for there Identification. If you're not breaking the law it shouldn't matter if you have to show your ID/CITIZENSHIP.

There's a little thing called the Constitution and its interperetations; there must be reasonable suspicion to stop a person on the street and PC to stop a car. Apparently you don;t agree, a cop s/b able to stop anyone, anywhere and any time per you.

>>>> How many people from the middle east are stopped and patted down for bombs??????????

Your point? Under the new law a pedestrian or motorist can be stopped by the cops with just reasonable suspicion, meaning they wouldn't have to have given the cop cany reason.

>>>> This reminds me of the people that oppose public cameras being used by a city. They say that there privacy is being threatened and the only ones opposing are the ones breaking the law

This reminds me of a person who doesn't understand the law, whatsoever. EVERYONE has no expectation of privacy in the streets, white Arizonans can still expect not to be pulled over absent PC, brown Americans can expect to be pulled over constantly w/o giving cause.

>>>> and in PUBLIC any citizen can be made by the LAW to produce Identification...

No you don't, unless you are driving or need ID for an ativity.

So, is it ok for the appearance of being an illegal Mexican good enough to establish a reason topull people over? Wait, I know your answer.

[rushmc 18]

How does it feel to be soooooooo wrong and

so in the minority?

Wait, is that racist?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Lucky... 0]

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Sure, its OK with me. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices in this life.

Sure, cause you're white. So your fellow Mexican-American born Americans s/b subject to constant harrassment w/o giving any PC? So that constitutional thing is just not important? 4th, 14th. I see, the conservatives selectively wave the US COnst around.

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I agree with what Spock said; "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

Sorry, you stepped directly in it this time.

What you've definded is Utilitarianism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism

Utilitarian has been assigned to Bentham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham an English jurist, philosopher, and legal and social reformer.

He was a basic old school liberal socialist and you've just aligned with him, welcome on board. See, America was allegedly, reportedly founded upon teh principles of INDIVIDUAL LIBERTIES AND RIGHTS, whereas Utilutarianism doesn't care about that, they care about the whole and a few losing rights so teh masses can emmerge is just fine with Utilitarianism. In the American model, the system was designed so that individuals are guaranteed rights, thus the whole are collectively guaranteed rights. In systems that subscribe to Utilitarianism, the indivuals aren't really worried about so much, it's about the survival of the mass; if a few get dropped along the way, that's ok, the whole needs to survive and you've just agreed with that and with Bentham the Socialist.

Here's a real good encyclopedic-type definition: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Utilitarianism


A collectivist moral philosophy which states that the moral worth of an action is directly dependant upon how much pleasure or good that action brings upon others. It is the belief in the most good for the most people. Under this moral philosophy the person exists solely to serve the community. According to Utilitarianism the person has no value, only the people do.
Communism is the philosophy of Utilitarianism put into practice as a socio-economic means of organizing society.


So guess what? You've aligned yourself with Bentham the liberal Socialist as well COMMUNIST thinking, as general Communism follows Utilitarianism. Congratulations.

So, is the new AZ Law, 1070 a communist-based law? Yes of course, you said so yourself w/o knowing.

[Lucky... 0]

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Call it what you want. I certainly am not a racist, ...

No, by your love of Utilitarianism, hence Communism you seem to be more of a Communist.

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I can't understand why people are so afraid of being called a racist. If that's what they are, this is America and they every right to be.

Well then stand up and wear it like a badge.

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Furthermore, the majority of people in the US according to what I just read are in favor of Arizona's new law and want their States to enact similar laws.

And the masses at some point were against things like:

- 1964 Civil Rts Act

- Woman Suffrage

- Emancipation Proclamation

- Etc, etc, etc

-

[Lucky... 0]

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I don't see anything wrong with registering all firearms. If you're not breaking the law it shouldn't matter.

Fixed it for ya

A little difference here, the constitution doesn't give the illegals the right to free health and welfare and a job, but it does give us the right to bear arms.

No, but the COnstitution does give us all EQUAL PROTECTION and this law circumvents that .... try reading the 14th if you have time.

[Lucky... 0]

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Also, you can even stop a brown person in a car, lowering the SOP (standard of proof) from Probable cause to reasonable suspicion in traffic violation cases. IOW's, brown people have their requirement for traffic stops at Reasonable Suspicion, whitey still at Probable Cause. Yea, nothing violative of that .

E. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, A PEACE OFFICER MAY LAWFULLY STOP
21 ANY PERSON WHO IS OPERATING A MOTOR VEHICLE IF THE OFFICER HAS REASONABLE
22 SUSPICION TO BELIEVE THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF ANY CIVIL TRAFFIC LAW AND
23 THIS SECTION.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

They must have mistakenly omitted 'brown' from the statute as you claim - maybe you should contact the state legislature and have them clear that up.

Yes and they'll be looking for French illegals here, perhaps illegals from Iceland. When the courts sort this Nazi law out, the Reasonable Suspicion, formerly PC, now reduced for some people will be reflected by the officer saying, "I saw he was Mexican-looking, he looked at me and tghen looked away real quick, I thought he was avoiding me so I pulled him over." And if this is a legal Mexican-American, whatever found will be admissable under teh new law.

So this puts LEGAL MEXICAN-AMERICANS at rsik, not that you care.

[Lucky... 0]

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The other issue here is that someone with a gun doesn't mean he broke the law, it is legal to have a gun.

The issue is not how the illegals are affected by laws like Arizona's. The issue is how legal residents and citizens are affected.

The gun registration issue is a good parallel. Having a gun does not mean you broke the law, but being of Mexican descent does not mean you broke the law either. The Arizona law essentially requires all citizens, whether they broke the law or not, to carry proof of citizenship documents and present them upon command. It is very similar to requiring all guns, not matter who owns them, to be registered.

You mean legal residents being affected by things like, less murders, less abuse of emergency rooms, less rapes, less kidnappings, things that I am sure are not high on the legal peoples lists of important things.

Illegals commit these and are victims to these. We don't want to support illegal immigration, we want to ensure legal Latinos aren't victimized by the law.

[Lucky... 0]

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Dealing with those already here and working is not going to be a simple or inexpensive matter, regardless of what you may think.

I agree that it would not be simple or inexpensive but......

Just because it is not simple or expensive should not be a valid reason to not enforce laws, regardless of what you may think.

Where did I write that it would be? Do pay attention, dear boy.

Where did timmyfitz write that it would be, before you posed the question to him? Do pay attention, dear boy.

Hillarious, a guy w/o education addressing a tenured proff as, "Dear Boy." Thx, Mike, ya made my day

[Lucky... 0]

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...so now we have the current reality that says if you are in AZ, you look like a Mexican and you're doing something illegal, involved in something illegal, ...

Did you read 1070? It's not PC, what you've illustrated, it's Reasonable Suspicion, something formulated by teh officer. PC must be generated by the subject; cause. RS is within the discretion of teh officer, so just being at any place and looking brown is sufficient.

BTW, RS is the lowest of all standards pf proof.

[Lucky... 0]

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We are supposed to live in a democracy and that means the popular vote wins...

If only that were true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000

Turd in Chief: 50,456,002

Gore: 50,999,897


Wrong is wrong and you and yours s/b real proud that such a disaster was elected with

[mnealtx 0]

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Dealing with those already here and working is not going to be a simple or inexpensive matter, regardless of what you may think.

I agree that it would not be simple or inexpensive but......

Just because it is not simple or expensive should not be a valid reason to not enforce laws, regardless of what you may think.

Where did I write that it would be? Do pay attention, dear boy.

Where did timmyfitz write that it would be, before you posed the question to him? Do pay attention, dear boy.

Hillarious, a guy w/o education addressing a tenured proff as, "Dear Boy." Thx, Mike, ya made my day

Nice PA, Mr. Legal Eagle Acft Mechanic. Too bad your education didn't include the definitions of sarcasm or irony, something I picked up in grade school but evidently you missed out on in your mail order jurisprudence course.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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How does it feel to be soooooooo wrong and

so in the minority?

Wait, is that racist?

I have all kinds of points to respond to, yet again, zero from you. Show you have a point to make or counter.

[Lucky... 0]

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Dealing with those already here and working is not going to be a simple or inexpensive matter, regardless of what you may think.

I agree that it would not be simple or inexpensive but......

Just because it is not simple or expensive should not be a valid reason to not enforce laws, regardless of what you may think.

Where did I write that it would be? Do pay attention, dear boy.

Where did timmyfitz write that it would be, before you posed the question to him? Do pay attention, dear boy.

Hillarious, a guy w/o education addressing a tenured proff as, "Dear Boy." Thx, Mike, ya made my day

Nice PA, Mr. Legal Eagle Acft Mechanic. Too bad your education didn't include the definitions of sarcasm or irony, something I picked up in grade school but evidently you missed out on in your mail order jurisprudence course.

I have 200 college / univ credits, you have maybe a vo-tech, Kallend has a PhD and you call him - dear boy. Gotta laugh.

[mnealtx 0]

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I have 200 college / univ credits, you have maybe a vo-tech, Kallend has a PhD and you call him - dear boy. Gotta laugh.

All those hours and nothing to show for it - no wonder you're so bitter over the status quo.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SivaGanesha 2]

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Illegals commit these and are victims to these. We don't want to support illegal immigration, we want to ensure legal Latinos aren't victimized by the law.

This is a worthy goal. But Arizona has promised that profiling won't happen, and deserves a chance to keep its word.

As I read the law, the only time the police would be able to ask for immigration papers would be if there is already legitimate contact with the police for some other reason (giving a traffic ticket or executing a search or arrest warrant for non-immigration reasons) and reasonable suspicion arises as to the person's status.

Immigration status isn't a very visible characteristic. The police can't just stop someone because they look like an illegal alien. If that happens then the federal courts might have to intervene, but there is no evidence to believe that it will.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014