Which is worst?

[wmw999 2,311]

Yeah, I'm trying to make a point. But we can talk about it anyway.

A similar question would be "who is the biggest loss: astronaut, police office, soldier?"

Do different classes of innocent people have different inherent worths?

Note: the lack of a "multiple votes allowed" is deliberate.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[shropshire 0]

I've got splinters from sitting on the fence on this one..

I say they are equally placed.... with the possible exception of the abortion.. IF the mothers life is in danger.

Otherwise the only way to separate them is if I knew (and liked) the folks involved.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[airdvr 201]

No correct answer for me. Let's play Global Thermonuclear War.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[nacmacfeegle 0]

You missed a category Wendy, 'victim of corporate manslaughter'

In answer to a person's worth, in terms of dollars and risk/cost justification to preserve a life or avoid a fatality, different classes of people have different worths, and that worth also varies depending on location and political context. A lot also depends on the manner of the fatality. If the fatality draws media attention and subsequent loss of reputation to those responsible its a lot more costly, in dollar terms.

It is,an uncomfortable truth.

Don't mind me I'm just passing by....

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[lawrocket 3]

I have a hard time choosing because so many have their similarities. But I think that there a couple of things that I am reasoning through:
(1) There is little difference between the bystander in war and bystander in a drive by. Both are collateral to intended target - who was intended to be killed.
(2) The innocent victim of a drunk driver is the one where no apparent intent to kill was stated.
(3) The fetus and the execution target were both the intended targets.

The factors that bring me to the innocent victim of an execution are:
(1) He/She is the only one of those being punished;
(2) He/She was deliberately wronged by a government; and
(3) The kicker is that the execution victim knows in advance the date and time of his/her death, knowing that he/she didn't do it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"A similar question would be "who is the biggest loss: astronaut, police office, soldier?"

How much was spent on the rectifying the Challenger mistakes, vs how much would te tax payer pay to avoid losing the lives of 7 marines?

Is the worth measured in terms of the value of human life, or dollar nvestment in the individual?

I was passing through, but I stopped for a beer.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[jimmytavino 16]

nacmacfeegle!!!!!

long time, man...!!!!!

good to hear from you...
how have you been?????

as to wendys poll.....
my vote would be

execution of an innocent..

because each one of the choices can be said to be covered by THAT choice....

since we never know what good or bad a person may do during the course of ones' life... it's difficult to say that one person, or one persons' job, rank, status etc.. is of greater importance than anothers...
loss of life , is generally a bad thing....
especially the loss of a GOOD persons' life...

jmy

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

No correct answer for me. Let's play Global Thermonuclear War.

AKA, I don't really care about innocent people being executed, it's part of thr equation.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

(3) The fetus and the execution target were both the intended targets.

The fetus has been determined not to be a person and that is a protection of teh mother's rights issue, execution of an innocent people is a gov action thing. The gov isn't performing or advocating the abortion, the state is performing the execution.

Quote

The factors that bring me to the innocent victim of an execution are:
(1) He/She is the only one of those being punished;
(2) He/She was deliberately wronged by a government; and
(3) The kicker is that the execution victim knows in advance the date and time of his/her death, knowing that he/she didn't do it.

Pretend teh condemned is guilty and everyone knows, the same apply. The condemned's victim doesn't know he/she is being executed and besides, the crime was against the state.

Deterrence is effectuated, if one believes the fallacy of that, whether the condemned actually killed the person or not, guilty or not.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Quote

Yeah, I'm trying to make a point. But we can talk about it anyway.

A similar question would be "who is the biggest loss: astronaut, police office, soldier?"

Do different classes of innocent people have different inherent worths?

Note: the lack of a "multiple votes allowed" is deliberate.

Wendy P.

Execution of an innocent person is, by far, the worst because it involves premeditated killing by the state. In all other cases, even the death of a bystander in war, decisions made at an individual level may play a role and so it is--in a relative sense--less serious.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

Quote

Yeah, I'm trying to make a point. But we can talk about it anyway.

A similar question would be "who is the biggest loss: astronaut, police office, soldier?"

Do different classes of innocent people have different inherent worths?

Note: the lack of a "multiple votes allowed" is deliberate.

Wendy P.

Execution of an innocent person is, by far, the worst because it involves premeditated killing by the state. In all other cases, even the death of a bystander in war, decisions made at an individual level may play a role and so it is--in a relative sense--less serious.

I agree that the execution of an innocent person is the worst, mostly because of the same reasons lawdog listed. I don't, however, agree that the rest of the cases involved individual desisions that make them less serious. The person didn't choose to be hit by a drunk driver. The baby didn't choose to have its brain sucked out.

The unforseen results of a seemingly insignificant decision shouldn't make one's fate less serious. Even so, the innocent person being executed made random decisions that led them to their predicament just as the innocent victim of a drive by did.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[RonD1120 58]

Quote

Yeah, I'm trying to make a point. But we can talk about it anyway.

A similar question would be "who is the biggest loss: astronaut, police office, soldier?"

Do different classes of innocent people have different inherent worths?

Note: the lack of a "multiple votes allowed" is deliberate.

Wendy P.

I chose the abortion option as the worse because of the helplessness and innocence of the unborn human being.

With the other options control or safety mechanisms of some degree exist for protection of the potential victim.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Skyrad 0]

Quote

No correct answer for me. Let's play Global Thermonuclear War.

You go first Doc Falcon

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Quote

(3) The fetus and the execution target were both the intended targets.

The fetus has been determined not to be a person

Ever see what happens when a pregnant woman is murdered? Two murder raps for the assailant. Or when a fetus is killed by another and the mother survives? It's a murder rap.

Only if the mother wants it killed is it not a murder. So you are partially right.

[Reply] and that is a protection of teh mother's rights issue,

[rhys 0]

Quote

I chose the abortion option as the worse because of the helplessness and innocence of the unborn human being.

With the other options control or safety mechanisms of some degree exist for protection of the potential victim.

I suppose you also think it is a womans' responsability to mother the child of a person that raped her also?

I guess you ignore the evidence of dinosours and the rest of the solar system and universe, so at least you are consistent!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Aren't execution of an innocent person and abortion of a possibly survivable-age baby the same thing?

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Quote

I suppose you also think it is a womans' responsability to mother the child of a person that raped her also?

Im adopted and my biological mother was raped. She chose to safe my life and at least take responsibility of the pregnancy before putting me up for adoption.

[rhys 0]

Quote

Im adopted and my biological mother was raped. She chose to safe my life and at least take responsibility of the pregnancy before putting me up for adoption.

Cool, thats awesome for you, you mother must have been strong.

Had she have decided otherwise you wouldn't exist and would be none the wiser.

I am not opposed to women giving birth to the child of a sexual abuse case, I am opposed to forcing them to.

Sometimes unwanted children can destroy three or more people lives.

I admire your being able to publicy speak of this. And I admire your biological mother for her stregnth and love for you she showed.

I was in a relationship with a woman, she got pregnant and she decided to terminate the foetus. I agreed and we went through with it. I was not in love with her, she was not in love with me, and had we have had the child; who knows what would have happened.

I am sure glad she was not forced (by law) into gving birth to it. She was relieved also.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[JohnnyMarko 1]

No one forced her. She was 15 and made the decision on her own.

[rhys 0]

Quote

No one forced her. She was 15 and made the decision on her own.

Which is why I admire her strength and love.

If abortions were illegal, she would have had no (legal) choice.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Thus creating a never ending problem/debate because just like anything, there are 2 sides and no law I can think of would make both sides happy

[Calvin19 0]

Quote

Do different classes of innocent people have different inherent worths?

YES. it is a sad truth but there is no way around this. Not all people are born equal. not all people follow the path that would eventually make them equal. DNA is meshed, choices are made.

I have had extensive arguments with my girlfriend on this one.

a burden on society and a productive member of it? are you kidding? All life has worth, of course, but to deny that some human life has more worth than some other human life is un-imaginably hypocritical.

these things are probably the most controversial of all subjects, and no consensus can ever be reached.

Things like potential value and current value come into play and effect each other to the point of confusion.

to have a conversation like this there has to be an agreed upon situation. all factors change the values of others.

Does the loss of a child, even one two years old, outweigh the life of a 20 year old? what if either is developmentally disabled? what if the 20 year old is an early college graduate? what if the two year old is the daughter of the queen? how does that change it?

what if the child is female or male? what would that change if there was a post apocalyptic human race survival situation?

these questions are epic. no one can answer them.

[Bolas 5]

Wow, hard to choose:

Abortion of a possibly survivable-age baby - fetus. not baby, so no.

Execution of an innocent person - While it may happen, one wonders what other murders that person committed that they did not get caught for or were found innocent on some technicality.

Innocent victim of drive-by shooting - Being around people in violent gangs is just not smart.

Innocent victim of a drunk driving incident - I'm gonna go with this one as there's usually little one can do to prevent this versus stay off roads at certain hours of night.

Bystander in a war - sorta like being around a violent gang.

Tragedies happen but most things happen due to people not heeding certain warning signs or by putting themselves in dangerous situations.

It's not any of them are "asking for it" but they are playing the odds.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Coreece 190]

I think the poll should be called "Who's the most innocent?"

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

(3) The fetus and the execution target were both the intended targets.

The fetus has been determined not to be a person

Quote

Ever see what happens when a pregnant woman is murdered? Two murder raps for the assailant. Or when a fetus is killed by another and the mother survives? It's a murder rap.

Only if the mother wants it killed is it not a murder. So you are partially right.

On the flip side, a prgnant mother wa cited for driving in teh car pool lane, a $600 ticket in Nazixona, her affirmative defense was just what you stated. Guess what? It didn't work, so pregnant women sometimes comprise 2 people, sometimes just one at the whims of the system, so we are both partially right.

[Reply] and that is a protection of teh mother's rights issue,

Quote

Yep. The mother's rights cease at a certain point. Incidentally, an abortions is the only non-emergency medical procedure that can be performed on a minor without parental consent. Try giving a kid an aspirin without consent and you get hammered.

Better quit souning Republican, you'll ruin your Libertarian guise. Yes, the 3rd trimester belongs to the baby and the doctor w/o special cause /permission, but the OP didn't exactly say 3rd trimester.

[Reply] execution of an innocent people is a gov action thing.

I concur. [Beer]

[Reply]The gov isn't performing or advocating the abortion,

Quote

What if the govt funds it?

It still doesn't advocate it; do you see clinics out there trying to lure preg women in? They pay for the performance of it just as they would pay for many procedures under access. And many abortions are paid for out of pocket.

[Reply]Pretend teh condemned is guilty and everyone knows, the same apply.

Quote

Except the condemned knows he's being punished for something he knows he did. My situation is a person being punished for something he did not do.

Yes, but the 3 factors you stated apply whether the condemned is guilty or not, that's all I was saying. And is an abortion, punishment?

[Reply]The condemned's victim doesn't know he/she is being executed

Quote

This makes it no better or worse.

It's not a better/worse thing, this just makes it clear that CP is retribution, not even simple punishment. The purpose of CP is not the fallacy of deterrence, it's not for anything but Old Testament retribution.

[Reply]and besides, the crime was against the state.

Quote

Right. And a state punishing a person for conduct the person did not do.

Right, so the point I was making is that the voctim is unfortunately irrelevant here; the crime is against the state whoc an go balls out to ignore the crime. All I'm saying is to bring the victim in is emotional and not judicial.

[Reply]Deterrence is effectuated, if one believes the fallacy of that, whether the condemned actually killed the person or not, guilty or not.

Quote

True. But I'm not one who places particular personal value on deterrence.

Anyone who does is not good at math and reading graphs; no evidence has ever been constantly shown to support deterrence lowering the crime rate.

***To me, execution should be about punishment, as should all "penal" enforcement . That's why they are called "penal" institutions. Not the "reformitentiary.". Not the "deterritentiary." A "penitentiary."

Yea, go get em!!!! Kill em all and let god sort em out!!! Fucking kill em all!!!

So let me get this straight, if a person kills another, we will show it's wrong to kill by killig that person. When we execute we condone killing humans, whether they did something deserving of it or not.

Regardless of this thread, execution is wrong.