Discovery of life outside earth and religion.

[zuluguy 0]

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I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures that relate to Them because of the change in my life.

that is somewhat limited way of looking at life. Why confine your life with the fictional characters you describe. Just take a look around you, the universe is much grander than you can imagine, We are not cast in a central stage with central roles. Science is telling us we are nothing special and will never be, on the contrary we are really miniscule,
now that is what makes it worth living for, to cherish that you are special because you came into being.

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God chose me and I answered the call.

What makes you think you are so special that God chose you. I'm not trying to demean you, I respectfully askyou this. None of us are any more or any less special. Remember human brains are know to imagine things that comfort us and make us feel better. Did you directly talk to god? what language did you talk? did he have an accent? was it male or female? black or white?
On a different note, it takes courage to ask these tough questions and face the reality. Myths might comfort us but they don't speak the truth that we can verify so far.

[turtlespeed 212]

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Why confine your life with the fictional characters you describe.

Prove your statement please.
It seems a lot like an assumption.

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Myths might comfort us but they don't speak the truth that we can verify so far.

That is why it is called "Faith"

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Shotgun 1]

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You say you would gladly change your views if presented evidence to the contary. If you're interested there is a case presented here.

I didn't watch the full one-hour video, but I skimmed through it and read other stuff on the website. So please correct me if I have misunderstood...

Basically, he seems to be saying that DNA is a code, and that all codes are designed by a conscious mind (they don't occur naturally), and so therefore DNA was designed by a conscious mind. And that is his proof that an intelligent creator exists. (Nevermind the complexity of such a creator and where it came from.)

The problem in his "proof" is stating that all codes are designed by a conscious mind. He states that as if it is a fact, but it is not, so he has proven nothing.

[jakee 1,254]

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The problem in his "proof" is stating that all codes are designed by a conscious mind. He states that as if it is a fact, but it is not, so he has proven nothing.

Indeed. "All man-made codes are man-made, so all codes are made."

Doesn't really stand up, does it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[tkhayes 125]

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In Reply To
Why confine your life with the fictional characters you describe.

Prove your statement please.
It seems a lot like an assumption.

he is not required to 'prove his statement' If you are going to claim that something 'exists' then I would expect the onus would be on you to prove that.

So far, nothing but faith exists as a 'proof of god's existence'. Sorry but I need more than that to prove anything.....

[maadmax 0]

that is somewhat limited way of looking at life. Why confine your life with the fictional characters you describe. Just take a look around you, the universe is much grander than you can imagine, We are not cast in a central stage with central roles. Science is telling us we are nothing special and will never be, on the contrary we are really miniscule,
now that is what makes it worth living for, to cherish that you are special because you came into being.

If you are so sure that we are insignificant and that science has all the answers, tell me how self consciousness arises form inorganic and organic chemistry. What combination of hadrons and leptons will ever produce love? On the contrary we are uniquely special. We are created in God's image to be with God for eternity.

[billvon 2,396]

>tell me how self consciousness arises form inorganic and organic
>chemistry.

By having it be advantageous (survival-wise) to do so.

>What combination of hadrons and leptons will ever produce love?

A similar combination that produces hope, or compassion, or despair.

>On the contrary we are uniquely special.

?? Unique in what way? Many animals exhibit love, compassion, despair, devotion and joy. We're certainly not unique in that respect - although we have developed a far better way of discussing those feelings than any other animal has.

[quade 3]

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. . . although we have developed a far better way of discussing those feelings than any other animal has.

To our knowledge. Whales have an incredibly complex vocal vocabulary.

What actually sets us apart is our ability to write language. It's this ability alone than enables us to communicate in a way that actually transcends physical and temporal boundaries.

That, and phone sex. Humans are, in fact, the only animals we know of capable of phone sex.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[RackJR 0]

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The Bible contains many references to extraterrestrial life forms referred to as angels.

Are these the passages you were citing?

2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

How do we know the difference between these extra terrestrial angels, and the angels god created, and angels of humans who have passed? Is it ok if I just ask you when I'm confused? Clearly you can easily tell when god was discussing alien life forms in the bible.

And here I was, thinking jesus was god's only son. But you're telling me that these guys, even though they're called sons, were actually alien life forms?

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Credibility is not possible without a similar belief system and frame of reference.

Credibility has nothing to do with a belief system. Credibility is the ability to be believed. So by your words here, your belief system can only be believed if I believe in it? Sounds very religious.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[DannHuff 0]

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You say you would gladly change your views if presented evidence to the contary. If you're interested there is a case presented here.

I didn't watch the full one-hour video, but I skimmed through it and read other stuff on the website. So please correct me if I have misunderstood...

Basically, he seems to be saying that DNA is a code, and that all codes are designed by a conscious mind (they don't occur naturally), and so therefore DNA was designed by a conscious mind. And that is his proof that an intelligent creator exists. (Nevermind the complexity of such a creator and where it came from.)

The problem in his "proof" is stating that all codes are designed by a conscious mind. He states that as if it is a fact, but it is not, so he has proven nothing.

Yes he is saying that no one has ever discovered a code (ie an agreed convention) that was not designed by a conscious mind. Therefore the best available alternative to explain code in DNA is a designer. His challenge is "show me a code that occurs naturally" to topple his conclusion. There are 56 pages of posts on an atheists forum debating this.

[RackJR 0]

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Yes he is saying that no one has ever discovered a code (ie an agreed convention) that was not designed by a conscious mind. Therefore the best available alternative to explain code in DNA is a designer. His challenge is "show me a code that occurs naturally" to topple his conclusion. There are 56 pages of posts on an atheists forum debating this.

DNA?

ahhhh... an excellent illustration of the difference between scientific and theistic thought processes. In the scientific world, if a piece of evidence is found that contradicts the currently held model, the entire model is subject to scrutiny and possibly rejection. In the theistic world, if a piece of evidence is found that contradicts the model of a creator, the evidence must be forced to fit into the model, so you can continue to cling to the idea of a creator.

DNA is a code that occurs naturally, the result of billions of years of evolution. That doesn't work for a theistic mind, so this person claims that no code has ever been found that wasn't designed by a conscious mind, in order to explain the code that was found which wasn't designed by a conscious mind. If it doesn't fit into the religious model, it proves the religious model.

outstanding.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[popsjumper 2]

All you naysayers who need physical "proof" of anything will find your answers in the fire and brimstone of Hell.








I'll hold the door open for you when you get there.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rhys 0]

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Would your view of religion change if NASA were to discover life (microbial) in outer solar system.

No, my religous view allow for, and hope for such discoveries; I am agnostic.

I beleive in some sort of 'God' I suppose, but none that have been palmed off so far.

Those IMHO take advantage of those that cannot bare to believe that there is potentially no reason whatsoever for thier existance.

I am not so sure we have a purpose. If we do, we are failing.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[RonD1120 58]

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God chose me and I answered the call.

What makes you think you are so special that God chose you.

The expression is based on Scriptures indicating that God/Jesus chooses us first. For example:

John 15:19
"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Salvation is for all but not all will choose to be saved. Our Father knows who His children are before we know Who our Father is.

I have had several life changing or enhancing experiences with the Lord. If your divine appointment manifests you will know. The phenomena is beyond human description.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

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In Reply To
Why confine your life with the fictional characters you describe.

Prove your statement please.
It seems a lot like an assumption.

he is not required to 'prove his statement' If you are going to claim that something 'exists' then I would expect the onus would be on you to prove that.

So far, nothing but faith exists as a 'proof of god's existence'. Sorry but I need more than that to prove anything.....

You've changed your tone and style. Good on ya'.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tkhayes 125]

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You've changed your tone and style. Good on ya'.

not really - I would not get too excited about it.....

[Skyrad 0]

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Would your view of religion change if NASA were to discover life (microbial) in outer solar system.
How about if they were to discover another Earth like planet.
Its almost looking positive, with 400 + planets discovered and counting.
How would you reconcile with life outside earth and religion.

I don't see a problem

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,254]

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Yes he is saying that no one has ever discovered a code (ie an agreed convention) that was not designed by a conscious mind.

But you see that his definition of a code ('an agreed convention') requires a code to be something that was designed by a conscious mind. He then takes DNA and shoehorns it into this definition.

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His challenge is "show me a code that occurs naturally" to topple his conclusion.

a) That code is DNA.

b) If you do show him another one, he'll say that either that one must have been designed as well, because all the other ones are or he'll say it doesn't fit his definition of a code, because his definition of a code requires it to be designed.

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There are 56 pages of posts on an atheists forum debating this.

So? That doesn't mean the argument has any credibility, it just means that there are people on atheist forums happy to sit there and write the same answers to the same objections over and over and over again.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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That, and phone sex. Humans are, in fact, the only animals we know of capable of phone sex.

I have to assume the phone doesn't like it.

No sir, doesn't like it one bit.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DannHuff 0]

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Yes he is saying that no one has ever discovered a code (ie an agreed convention) that was not designed by a conscious mind.

But you see that his definition of a code ('an agreed convention') requires a code to be something that was designed by a conscious mind. He then takes DNA and shoehorns it into this definition.

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His challenge is "show me a code that occurs naturally" to topple his conclusion.

a) That code is DNA.

b) If you do show him another one, he'll say that either that one must have been designed as well, because all the other ones are or he'll say it doesn't fit his definition of a code, because his definition of a code requires it to be designed.

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There are 56 pages of posts on an atheists forum debating this.

So? That doesn't mean the argument has any credibility, it just means that there are people on atheist forums happy to sit there and write the same answers to the same objections over and over and over again.

Sounds like you have not watched the video. If you get a chance to watch it, I'd be interested to know whether you still have the same comments.

[billvon 2,396]

>Yes he is saying that no one has ever discovered a code (ie an agreed
>convention) that was not designed by a conscious mind.

Nature has plenty of codes. Pulsars (rapidly rotating neutron stars) send out coded radio messages. Some are more invariant and accurate than an atomic clock; some have regular time and frequency modulations. However, the argument "such coded messages can only come from a conscious mind" holds no water.

Sunflower seed spirals perfectly reproduce the Fibonacci Sequence. The Giant's Causeway contains millions of perfect hexagons in sequence. Neither of those were created by intelligent intervention; rather they are the result of natural processes we now understand.

DNA is similar. We can watch it change and we understand the mechanisms that drive that change. It's not a perfect process; since it was created naturally, rather than designed, there are huge chunks of junk DNA, the process doesn't work for very long (telomere erosion) and there are a great many duplicates and redundant pairs.

[champu 1]

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Sounds like you have not watched the video. If you get a chance to watch it, I'd be interested to know whether you still have the same comments.

I like the information theory approach and he has a lot of good points, but you only have to make one errant leap to ruin your conclusion. There's a "forest from the trees" problem in his argument in that he's trying to decompose the genetic code of an extremely mature collection of species that exists today using the simplest type of mutation (random single "bit" errors.)

Life is sufficiently complex at this point that we should expect mutations resulting in potentially beneficial traits to involve whole blocks of DNA. He admits this happens and that it is likely responsible for the evolutionary process. But you can't assume life and the underlying genetic code was always as complex as it is today.

Life spent a really long time in an extremely unimpressive state before looking like it does today.

[zuluguy 0]

tell me how self consciousness arises form inorganic and organic chemistry.
***

well, we (scientific community) never claimed that we know it all, the quest to try to uncover is exciting and grander. Sometimes knowing that we don't know it all is better, that gives life a purpose to uncovers the mysteries of nature.
The day we will know it all is probably going to be really a sad day, that is when you do not have a purpose.
self consciousness is a slow evolutionary process that evolved after millions of years of survival merely by chance.

>What combination of hadrons and leptons will ever produce love?

A lot of human traits can be observed in primates and other animals.
Reciprocal altruism is something we can attribute to current day charitable actions of humans.
Some forms of Love can be attributed to survival of the fittest quality that evolved to its present form. Remember we can not look at these human attributes and think them happend in small or human time scales. Think about millions of years, its sort of hard to wrap your brain around it.

>On the contrary we are uniquely special
We are unique but for different reasons. We are unique because we are a product of several evolutionary accidents and happend to have evolved to an intelligent life form, that is truly unique.

[kallend 1,623]

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"show me a code that occurs naturally".

DNA

Any crystal

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[zuluguy 0]

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The expression is based on Scriptures indicating that God/Jesus chooses us first. For example:

John 15:19
"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Salvation is for all but not all will choose to be saved. Our Father knows who His children are before we know Who our Father is.

I have had several life changing or enhancing experiences with the Lord. If your divine appointment manifests you will know. The phenomena is beyond human description.

I admire your courage to repose all your faith in a book that is not even a first hand account of the events that transpired 2000 years ago. No one to validate, a book that has clearly put earth at the center and humans all too important. Not trying to change people. All I'm saying is look beyond and be open to reason.
Mankind made progress because they looked beyond the scriptures and tried to understand the true book of nature.
Imagine if we got stuck with the scriptures would we have progressed as a mankind, the resounding answer is NO