More taxes coming

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Real basic.... if you cannot afford it don't spend the money. Do you understand?

That line kind of says it all; but based on the level of consumer debt out there, I'd say the concept does not register with at least the simple majority of citizens. Extending that thought, if some critical mass of people as individuals no longer value or practice fiscal responsibility, why would we expect them to demand it of those administering our government spending.

Kind of becomes a chicken and egg thing. Did the public become drunken spenders because, what the heck, that is what the government does? Or did the government become a drunken spender because, what the heck, that is how people behave?

Agreed. It is not a hard concept to grasp though. We are a nation of a "we deserve it and we deserve it now" mentality. Those damn Knights Templar had to go and invent loans and credit and BAM... this is where we are today.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[pirana 0]

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; and (perish the thought) actually closing down programs that were not effective.

here's your problem -

"effective" does NOT mean benefit to the people or fixes a problem or generates income

"effective" only means it's a good PR clip that makes people feel (good/validated/vengeful/etc) enough to create votes for Congresscritters

Well, as part of any major initiative I've been involved with implementing, we define how effectiveness will be measured up front; and I can't remember it ever having to do with how people feel. But I get your point.

We (not you and I, but some folks I work with) were having a similar discussion earlier this week about a project. I was getting a bit frustrated and had to confess that making people feel good was somewhere near the very bottom of my objectives. Some would probably see it as a character flaw, but I think everybody needs to make themselves feel good.

"I'll work the mechanics, logistics, budget, resource aquisition and allocation, and schedule for deployment; you please go do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel good. Maybe after you feel good again, you can come back and help with the task at hand."

(Sometimes they look at me like I'm from Vulcan - or France).

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Can we eliminate the debt we have right now in one swoop? Hell no but that's not the point. An individual that has a ton of credit card debt needs to take it one step at a time but the last thing they should be doing is charging more on those handy credit cards hoping that makes everything better. There is no bankruptcy for a country....

Yes, not only are the drunk, they are drunken gamblers. Like my little brother at the casino. He blows his $100 (thankfully he is not a BIG gambler), then comes asking me for a $20. He thinks just one more $20 bill and he will make everything good. Cutting losses does not exist for these people; it is always either win it all or go flat broke trying.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Can we eliminate the debt we have right now in one swoop? Hell no but that's not the point. An individual that has a ton of credit card debt needs to take it one step at a time but the last thing they should be doing is charging more on those handy credit cards hoping that makes everything better. There is no bankruptcy for a country....

Yes, not only are the drunk, they are drunken gamblers. Like my little brother at the casino. He blows his $100 (thankfully he is not a BIG gambler), then comes asking me for a $20. He thinks just one more $20 bill and he will make everything good. Cutting losses does not exist for these people; it is always either win it all or go flat broke trying.

I work in the investment world and play a lot of options so for me the concept of "cutting losses" was burned in to my head real quick. I also learned not to play with money I cannot lose.

On the note of credit cards or borrowing money..... if I cannot pay it off that month I do not spend it!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[pirana 0]

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A single pass cut would not be the way to do it
A planned cut would make the whole country better in the end

We will just have to go through some pain as Obama says

It is just who goes through said pain and

who those in pain vote for in the end


doesn't it

Agreed, there will be pain. That is inevitable, the piper has to be paid; and as you say, it is just a matter of who pays and when. But the longer we wait to begin, the longer the recovery.

IMO, we need to start NOW - TODAY. Immediately, at least stop increasing the spending. As quickly as possible, stop spending more than is coming in.

This BS where we keep increasing the debt today in the promise we will bring it down later is a crock of shit. They sound like addicts.

Starting right now, freeze taxes (revenue) and make at least little cuts in spending. Increase the cuts slowly, or more quickly if it can be tolerated.

I can even accept not cutting taxes for some indefinite period as a trade off to at least start to decrease spending and working off a bit of the debt.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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You think tax cuts and supply side economics caused the last recession?

The CURRENT recession was caused by the same greedy people who also whine continuously about the taxes they pay.

I am one who whines about taxes (especially any effort to take even more of my money), but really don't think I meet any reasonable criteria to be defined as greedy, and don't see how I personally played any part in causing the recession.

Exactly which of my behaviors played a a part in causing the recession?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rehmwa 2]

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Well, as part of any major initiative I've been involved with implementing, we define how effectiveness will be measured up front; and I can't remember it ever having to do with how people feel. But I get your point.

right - and you worked in a private industry

Government has no deliverables except gathering votes - which has to do with how people 'feel' (reality can go to hell)

this is why Government should be extremely limited in being allowed to handle money

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[dreamdancer 0]

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Brutally, the banks knowingly gamed the system to grow their balance sheets ever faster and with even less capital underpinning them in the full knowledge that everything rested on the bogus claim that their lending was now much less risky. That was not all they were doing. As Michael Lewis describes in The Big Short, credit default swaps had been deliberately created as an asset class by the big investment banks to allow hedge funds to speculate against collateralised debt obligations. The banks were gaming the regulators and investors alike – and they knew full well what they were doing. Simon Johnson's 13 Bankers shows how the major American banks deployed vast political lobbying power and money to create the relaxed regulatory environment in which all this could take place. In Britain no money changed hands. Gordon Brown offered light-touch regulation for free – egged on by the Tories, who wanted to go further.

This was the context in which Goldman's Fabulous Fab created the disputed CDOs, Sean FitzPatrick allegedly moved loans between banks and Lehman created its Repo 105s along with the entire "debt mule" structure revealed this weekend of inter-related companies to shuffle debt around its empire. London and New York had become the centre of an international financial system in which the purpose of banking became making money from money – and where the complexity of the "innovations" allowed extensive fraud and deception.

Now it has all collapsed, to be bailed out by western taxpayers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/apr/18/goldman-sachs-regulators-civil-charges

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Brutally, the banks knowingly gamed the system to grow their balance sheets ever faster and with even less capital underpinning them in the full knowledge that everything rested on the bogus claim that their lending was now much less risky. That was not all they were doing. As Michael Lewis describes in The Big Short, credit default swaps had been deliberately created as an asset class by the big investment banks to allow hedge funds to speculate against collateralised debt obligations. The banks were gaming the regulators and investors alike – and they knew full well what they were doing. Simon Johnson's 13 Bankers shows how the major American banks deployed vast political lobbying power and money to create the relaxed regulatory environment in which all this could take place. In Britain no money changed hands. Gordon Brown offered light-touch regulation for free – egged on by the Tories, who wanted to go further.

This was the context in which Goldman's Fabulous Fab created the disputed CDOs, Sean FitzPatrick allegedly moved loans between banks and Lehman created its Repo 105s along with the entire "debt mule" structure revealed this weekend of inter-related companies to shuffle debt around its empire. London and New York had become the centre of an international financial system in which the purpose of banking became making money from money – and where the complexity of the "innovations" allowed extensive fraud and deception.

Now it has all collapsed, to be bailed out by western taxpayers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/apr/18/goldman-sachs-regulators-civil-charges

I'm aware of all of this.... what is your point?

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[kallend 1,623]

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You think tax cuts and supply side economics caused the last recession?

The CURRENT recession was caused by the same greedy people who also whine continuously about the taxes they pay.

I am one who whines about taxes (especially any effort to take even more of my money), but really don't think I meet any reasonable criteria to be defined as greedy, and don't see how I personally played any part in causing the recession.

Exactly which of my behaviors played a a part in causing the recession?

I didn't claim you were part of the set of greedy whiners that caused the recession. But if the shoe fits...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

Federal tax revenues are currently running around 15% of GPD, THE LOWEST PERCENTAGE SINCE 1950. It is NOT that we are taxed too much compared with historical averages.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

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Federal tax revenues are currently running around 15% of GPD, THE LOWEST PERCENTAGE SINCE 1950. It is NOT that we are taxed too much compared with historical averages.

Exactly, I've posted that sevral times, receipts are down which constitutes most of the debt increase; spending hasn't changed since GWB left office. As the reccovery carries on, I assume Obama will raise taxes via letting the tax cuts expire and hopefully spending will subside, esp military.

Taxes are incredibly low since WWI. They've only been in the 20%'s twice:

- in the 1920's leading to the Great Depression

- as Reagan cut them to 28% in 1986

In the 30's only since GWB cut them back after Clinton raised them.

I just don't get where these guys get their, "taxes are higher than ever" bullshit.

[Lucky... 0]

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But Obama is making GWB look like a fiscal conservative with all of his spending.

List everythign Obama has spent money on. Remember, HC hasn't cost a dime yet.

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Federal tax revenues are currently running around 15% of GPD, THE LOWEST PERCENTAGE SINCE 1950. It is NOT that we are taxed too much compared with historical averages.

I disagree..... Federal taxes are not the only way we are taxed.

On a federal note... I AM taxed to much especially because where my money is going is a mismanaged joke.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[kallend 1,623]

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Federal tax revenues are currently running around 15% of GPD, THE LOWEST PERCENTAGE SINCE 1950. It is NOT that we are taxed too much compared with historical averages.

I disagree..... Federal taxes are not the only way we are taxed.

On a federal note... I AM taxed to much especially because where my money is going is a mismanaged joke.

The OP (which WAS YOU) was referring to federal taxes.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Federal tax revenues are currently running around 15% of GPD, THE LOWEST PERCENTAGE SINCE 1950. It is NOT that we are taxed too much compared with historical averages.

I disagree..... Federal taxes are not the only way we are taxed.

On a federal note... I AM taxed to much especially because where my money is going is a mismanaged joke.

The OP (which WAS YOU) was referring to federal taxes.

Ha.... ya I know but read the second part of my post.... but you are correct I was... now it has been amended.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[pirana 0]

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You think tax cuts and supply side economics caused the last recession?

The CURRENT recession was caused by the same greedy people who also whine continuously about the taxes they pay.

I am one who whines about taxes (especially any effort to take even more of my money), but really don't think I meet any reasonable criteria to be defined as greedy, and don't see how I personally played any part in causing the recession.

Exactly which of my behaviors played a a part in causing the recession?

I didn't claim you were part of the set of greedy whiners that caused the recession. But if the shoe fits...

Well, I was going off your statement:

"The CURRENT recession was caused by the same greedy people who also whine continuously about the taxes they pay" and assumed since I continuously whine about my taxes that I was included in your grouping of greedy people that caused the recession.

So, if I'm not included in the broad category you painted of people that caused the recession; maybe you could revise the statement so we know who, in your opinion, caused the recession.

Maybe it was caused by only some of the greedy people that whine about taxes. Could you refine the definition of the category so we can know which greedy people that whine about taxes casued the recession?

Broad whiny statements don't really contribute to the discussion. As an academic, I'd expect your contributions to be more precise and less like an emotional rant.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rushmc 18]

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You think tax cuts and supply side economics caused the last recession?

The CURRENT recession was caused by the same greedy people who also whine continuously about the taxes they pay.

I am one who whines about taxes (especially any effort to take even more of my money), but really don't think I meet any reasonable criteria to be defined as greedy, and don't see how I personally played any part in causing the recession.

Exactly which of my behaviors played a a part in causing the recession?

I didn't claim you were part of the set of greedy whiners that caused the recession. But if the shoe fits...

Well, I was going off your statement:

"The CURRENT recession was caused by the same greedy people who also whine continuously about the taxes they pay" and assumed since I continuously whine about my taxes that I was included in your grouping of greedy people that caused the recession.

So, if I'm not included in the broad category you painted of people that caused the recession; maybe you could revise the statement so we know who, in your opinion, caused the recession.

Maybe it was caused by only some of the greedy people that whine about taxes. Could you refine the definition of the category so we can know which greedy people that whine about taxes casued the recession?

Broad whiny statements don't really contribute to the discussion. As an academic, I'd expect your contributions to be more precise and less like an emotional rant.

Everybody whom he considers rich that does not work for the government

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,623]

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Everybody whom he considers rich that does not work for the government

As you doubtless forgot, I have been called a member of the "rich elite" on this forum, and do not work for the government. But the critical factor is that I do not whine about the taxes I pay

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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Everybody whom he considers rich that does not work for the government

As you doubtless forgot, I have been called a member of the "rich elite" on this forum, and do not work for the government. But the critical factor is that I do not whine about the taxes I pay

Translation

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,623]

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Everybody whom he considers rich that does not work for the government

As you doubtless forgot, I have been called a member of the "rich elite" on this forum, and do not work for the government. But the critical factor is that I do not whine about the taxes I pay

Translation

Follow the money.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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Everybody whom he considers rich that does not work for the government

As you doubtless forgot, I have been called a member of the "rich elite" on this forum, and do not work for the government. But the critical factor is that I do not whine about the taxes I pay

Translation

Follow the money.

You dare not do that sir

Your world view would be turned upside down

Think .. ... ...Dodd Schumer

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,623]

You do post a lot of nonsense.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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You do post a lot of nonsense.

If so
I learned from you teacher

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,623]

Do you get a lot of exercise trying to squeeze blood out of turnips?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.