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I wish people would just say what they really feel which is probably something along the lines of "suck it up and pay the money so everyone can be covered bc I believe that is what is right"
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That is my position. I have a good job, good health insurance, am in good health, and pay far more tax than most. I STILL think this is a good law for the country as a whole.



+1

Well except for the overall health thing... with supposed pre-existing conditions that have been dreamt up by Premera and United NON-Health that I have been paying into for a few years.... and who want co-pays for the prescriptions that I take that EXCEED the cost of the actual drugs themselves for 3 of the drugs.

How the fuck can they justify a pre-existing condition for an injury... a new one and the diagnostics for it.. or the diagnostics called for by a doctor to see how far pneumonia had spread thru my lungs.. nearly killing me.

All these stupid right wing fucks that think they are actually covered are in for some RUDE surprises in future years.. even WITH the new HC bill because the insurance companies are just that god damn crooked.. they will find a way to continue to rip off the American People.

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even WITH the new HC bill because the insurance companies are just that god damn crooked.. they will find a way to continue to rip off the American People.



Then maybe congress should have invested a little more time proofing, studying-for fuck's sake just reading the legislation they passed instead of running it through so fast so they could get the "victory" headlines and msnbc soundbites.
You are only as strong as the prey you devour

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>Then maybe congress should have invested a little more time proofing,
>studying-for fuck's sake just reading the legislation they passed instead
>of running it through so fast so they could get the "victory" headlines and
>msnbc soundbites.

14 months is "so fast?" Would you have preferred 14 years? How slowly do republicans read, anyway?

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Fair enough, I can understand why someone with a massive investment income making over $250k might feel a little miffed about this, but they DO have to remember that the extra taxes only apply to the income they make OVER $250k, not the bit up to and including $250k (which is quite a bit of money...).

You will note also that the tax on 'Cadillac' plans is on the insurnace companies, not on the consumers. This is commonly known as 'The invisible hand of the market', where if those cheeky buggers put up your premium, you have the option of going to another plan and force that company to reduce it's premiums. Come to think of it - that's pretty conservative and capitalist isn't it, not really what you'd call lefty...

So, to recap - Rich people will have a tiny slice of their investment income taxed (boo-hoo), and what amounted to an organized Monopoly with price fixing has been broken up. Sounds like a pretty balanced plan in terms of left/right to me. I also note that healthcare insurance company stocks didn't exactly plummet on the news

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Fair enough, I can understand why someone with a massive investment income making over $250k might feel a little miffed about this, but they DO have to remember that the extra taxes only apply to the income they make OVER $250k, not the bit up to and including $250k (which is quite a bit of money...).

You will note also that the tax on 'Cadillac' plans is on the insurnace companies, not on the consumers. This is commonly known as 'The invisible hand of the market', where if those cheeky buggers put up your premium, you have the option of going to another plan and force that company to reduce it's premiums. Come to think of it - that's pretty conservative and capitalist isn't it, not really what you'd call lefty...

So, to recap - Rich people will have a tiny slice of their investment income taxed (boo-hoo), and what amounted to an organized Monopoly with price fixing has been broken up. Sounds like a pretty balanced plan in terms of left/right to me. I also note that healthcare insurance company stocks didn't exactly plummet on the news



The stock market as a whole didn't plummet, or even descend gently.

The right wing is whining and stamping its little foot because it didn't get its way.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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You will note also that the tax on 'Cadillac' plans is on the insurnace companies, not on the consumers.



and a business passes the cost to the consumers-that's how we stay in business. I'm sorry you're poor-but don't take it out on me, go earn more
You are only as strong as the prey you devour

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It's NOT all about YOU.



Well lets just take the organs of the guy who drinks and smokes alot. He should be forced to give all or some of his organs up!
Or the healthy guy who doesn't actully need both kidneys. Or the the kid who works hard for good grades should give up some of his points to help another student who doesn't give a shit or one who isn't as smart, so that they have an equal opportunity to get higher education. Its flawless, ethical and down right makes sense.:|

REDISTRIPUTE THE WEALTH! Whos with me? The new health care bill should cover the transplants it anyway. Probably the grade transfer too with all the hidden agendas within the bill.:S
If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

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It's NOT all about YOU.



Well lets just take the organs of the guy who drinks and smokes alot. He should be forced to give all or some of his organs up!
Or the healthy guy who doesn't actully need both kidneys. Or the the kid who works hard for good grades should give up some of his points to help another student who doesn't give a shit or one who isn't as smart, so that they have an equal opportunity to get higher education. Its flawless, ethical and down right makes sense.:|

REDISTRIPUTE THE WEALTH! Whos with me? The new health care bill should cover the transplants it anyway. Probably the grade transfer too with all the hidden agendas within the bill.:S


Would I be right in my guess that you were like so many others willing to let someone else redistribute the responsibility of going to war in your place to protect all of your rights you claim for yourself?

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I wish people would just say what they really feel which is probably something along the lines of "suck it up and pay the money so everyone can be covered bc I believe that is what is right"
.



That is my position. I have a good job, good health insurance, am in good health, and pay far more tax than most. I STILL think this is a good law for the country as a whole.


I knew you would have no problem saying it but the other side has a valid point as well..... what about a middle class family that does not have it as good as you but can afford healthcare and gets by.... is it fair to tax them more? I don't know that it is.... I think on paper the concept of this is great but in reality it is not sustainable.... we shall see.....


+1

Its been beaten to death, but Its not about change in general. Its about this particular bill that is pasted.

Just because you spray air freshener in a bathroom with shit still in the toilet. Its still just a temporary solution to the smell (or healthcare system). In this case the two combine to make some much worse hybrid smell. They used the cheap, fast, and easy to push through congress "air freshener":P The tolilet needs to be flushed.

I'm not saying Rebs have the answer, so please no, "Well when are the Republicans going to do something to improve healthcare. Atleast we are making some progress." Thats not my point, just opposed to this particlular bill.

-TJ
If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

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It's NOT all about YOU.



Well lets just take the organs of the guy who drinks and smokes alot. He should be forced to give all or some of his organs up!
Or the healthy guy who doesn't actully need both kidneys. Or the the kid who works hard for good grades should give up some of his points to help another student who doesn't give a shit or one who isn't as smart, so that they have an equal opportunity to get higher education. Its flawless, ethical and down right makes sense.:|

REDISTRIPUTE THE WEALTH! Whos with me? The new health care bill should cover the transplants it anyway. Probably the grade transfer too with all the hidden agendas within the bill.:S


Would I be right in my guess that you were like so many others willing to let someone else redistribute the responsibility of going to war in your place to protect all of your rights you claim for yourself?


Completely opposite to what i have been saying (please come up with better points). I pull my own weight. I pay for my cost of living. I pay for for my privelages like health care (well not a privelage anymore). I would go to war in a heart beat if drafted. I actually considered the armed forces as a career very seriously for a while (both parents served in the Air Force in which my dad retired). I would have to start in infantry for the Marines or Army though if I had to choose.

To answer your question, know you would not be right. Again, I AGAINST the redistripution of wealth. I pull my own weight.

Not a shot at you, seriously, but if I had a bad experience with the health care system, which I have not (only a dislocated shoulder with minor rotator cuff tearing), my first thought would not be to blame the "Man", Health Care, or complain. I would suck it up, remind myself life is tough, and get back to thinking of a way and opportunities to improve my situation. And of course take ACTION for myself.

I realize nothing is owed to me. Well, there are certain inalienable rights.
Not an Inalienable Right:
-Health/Flood/House/Renters/Car/Life/Retirement/etc. Insurance
-Payment for a Luxury Car so I ride on the government provided roads a little safer and more comfortable.
-Means to be provided a compensation for buying only organic food to live longer and decrease my health care usage
-Payment for a gym membership to improve looks and health.
-Internet/Cable or Sattelite/Computer/ Higher education beyond high school privileges.

Health Care = Privileges.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happines, IMO, does not mean others citizens providing this for you.

-tj
If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

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>Then maybe congress should have invested a little more time proofing,
>studying-for fuck's sake just reading the legislation they passed instead
>of running it through so fast so they could get the "victory" headlines and
>msnbc soundbites.

14 months is "so fast?" Would you have preferred 14 years? How slowly do republicans read, anyway?



Evidently faster than the Dems.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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I take it then that you didn't attend a public grade school or high school, never drive on public roads, never visit a National or State Park, don't use any water from a municipal supply, put out your own fires, do your own police work, and never fly on any plane using ATC services.

Good for you.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I take it then that you didn't attend a public grade school or high school, never drive on public roads, never visit a National or State Park, don't use any water from a municipal supply, put out your own fires, do your own police work, and never fly on any plane using ATC services.



AND, I take it then that you voluntarily overpaid taxes to the tune of 90% rates (the good old days) to the government to do as they see fit without any preconditions or expectations of how that money is used.

That's admirable.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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I take it then that you didn't attend a public grade school or high school, never drive on public roads, never visit a National or State Park, don't use any water from a municipal supply, put out your own fires, do your own police work, and never fly on any plane using ATC services.

Good for you.



If I pay taxes for services, it does not give me the nature right to be provided an oppotunity to pay for another service (healthcare) I might need in the future. I pay taxes and I use what its paying for. Not the same as I pay taxes for the opportunity to use the roads and schools, and still pay a quarterly premium if not needed at the time.

I pay taxes and get something back, while the small business owners are forced to provide health care to employees at his own expense with nothing to gain. Well he may sleep better at night, but that should only be his/her own choice. Is this not providing for one group at the expense of the other who has provided for themselves on there own?
If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

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I pay taxes and get something back, while the small business owners are forced to provide health care to employees at his own expense with nothing to gain. Well he may sleep better at night, but that should only be his/her own choice.



How does the employer gain from his share of Social Security tax? Is that his/her choice?

Your argument is totally bogus.

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Is this not providing for one group at the expense of the other who has provided for themselves on there own?



Like childless couples who pay for the schools you attended?

Your argument is both selfish AND bogus.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I pay taxes and get something back, while the small business owners are forced to provide health care to employees at his own expense with nothing to gain. Well he may sleep better at night, but that should only be his/her own choice.



How does the employer gain from his share of Social Security tax? Is that his/her choice?

Your argument is totally bogus.

Quote


Is this not providing for one group at the expense of the other who has provided for themselves on there own?



Like childless couples who pay for the schools you attended?

Your argument is both selfish AND bogus.


I'll agree I could have made my point sound better.

Ok, I'll try a different route. The childless couples did not pay for the school I attended. My parents did and I now do, through taxes they paid and the ones I now do. I also paid taxes in school when I started working, so I was paying directly for my schooling for a little while. The childless couples used the provisions provided by their taxes in other ways. Its the law, just like healthcare now, that the employers have to pay for social security. I never said that should be a right or that I agree with it, and I'm not counting on it in the future for myself. I think its selfish to count on things like that because its depending on others, unless you get back as much as you put in. That is not the case, because a lot of that money goes elsewhere. Will it be there when I retire? I won't count on it. I would rather rely on my own means of financial security because I am not selfish.

Lets use the public/private schools as an analogy. Jim goes to a public school because its paid for by taxes. Jane goes to a private school that her hard working parents pay for, just a many do for health insurance. Is it fair for Jane's parents to pay more tuition so Jim and everyone else can go to the private schools? Yes there are things that taxes pay for that I find are not fair. Health insurance is now one of them. I don't think its selfish, I just don't think the government should control every aspect of my life. Its should I say, soci.... nevermind thats been beat to death. I just don't think its a good situation or the American way.

Side note: These have been some good discussions.;)
If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

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I pay taxes and get something back, while the small business owners are forced to provide health care to employees at his own expense with nothing to gain. Well he may sleep better at night, but that should only be his/her own choice.



How does the employer gain from his share of Social Security tax? Is that his/her choice?

Your argument is totally bogus.

Quote


Is this not providing for one group at the expense of the other who has provided for themselves on there own?



Like childless couples who pay for the schools you attended?

Your argument is both selfish AND bogus.



I'll agree I could have made my point sound better.

Ok, I'll try a different route. The childless couples did not pay for the school I attended. My parents did and I now do, through taxes they paid and the ones I now do. I also paid taxes in school when I started working, so I was paying directly for my schooling for a little while. The childless couples used the provisions provided by their taxes in other ways.



That is NOT how the tax laws work.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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"and a business passes the cost to the consumers-that's how we stay in business. I'm sorry you're poor-but don't take it out on me, go earn more"

Erm, I'm NOT poor. In fact this does affect me because I make enough to qualify for the additional taxes but I worked a damnned sight harder when I was making less money than I do now and I realize there are plenty of people I still depend upon who NEED this legislation to get insurance. If you're short sighted enough to hurt the people you depend upon then I pity you the poverty of your imagination.

And as for business passing on the costs to consumers, I agree. That's why this is there - there is NO reason for a healthcare plan to cost what the 'Cadillac' plans cost, consumers will have reason to move elsewhere if those companies 'offering' such plans pass on the cost, reinvigorating the market forces we rely upon for your economic premise to be valid. This is of paramount importance for you to be able to compete equitably in the pursuit of the American dream - without someone (read Government) to prevent organized monopolies you will soon find yourself either party to one or the victim of one.

Remember the Constitution contains, in it's preamble the commitment to ensure the general welfare of it's constituents, where welfare is defined as n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being

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Remember the Constitution contains, in it's preamble the commitment to ensure the general welfare of it's constituents, where welfare is defined as n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being



You may want to peruse the document in question again - the phrase is "promote the general welfare", not provide it.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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>the phrase is "promote the general welfare", not provide it.

Yep. Then you get a little further in and they clarify it - Congress will PROVIDE for the general welfare. The exact text:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States"

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Agreed- 'Promote' it is, but as Bill Von notes, only in the preamble...

Interestingly though, does not doing something about organized price gouging 'Promote' the well being of the people?

I suppose you could argue that Government has no place preventing such abuses, but then I would think you might logically nullify most of the sociological advances our country has seen in the last 80 years, undo the premise for an oganized police force and make room for re-establishment of Mafia-style rule.

I feel like Jane Goodall sometimes in this country.

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