Unarmed versus Armed Victims

[georgerussia 0]

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I am not interested of how a minority of armed people protects themselves from crimes

This is exactly what I talked above.
What I wrote was "I'm not interested in A" (i.e. I'm not interested in stories how gun owners protected themselves), and that's all your quotes confirm.

What you claimed that I said "I'll only accept B" (i.e. I will ignore any stories besides when gun owners protected someone else).

This is false. For example, I'm interested in stories when a gun owner committed yet another stupid crime or went crazy. It is clear as I have been posting those stories for a while.

You, however, claimed that "only examples of gun owners coming to the rescue of people like him that refuse to protect themselves are acceptable". Your claim is FALSE, this is not the only example I'm interested in, and there is a huge difference between "interested" and "acceptable".

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Europe's gun laws! Guns started in Europe with the advent of gunpowder. That sperad to the U.S. and we began to manufacture guns. With that in mind... Europe started it all!

And they pretty much ended it for themselves - so they are kinda ahead, correct? :)

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John is not my only source. He does come across with 'good' information.

and the only reason it looks "good" is because it is often misleading, or an outright lie. Like with gun crime in UK

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I guess, it depends on whose stats you read. All I could find was how England's gun-crime rate was way up, last year.

That is because you were reading JR (or nralia, which is basically the same). Do not expect to find any unbiased information from them. mnealtx just provided direct evidence from UK government which shows that gun crime is down, not up.

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What I don't understand is, you are so much against guns yet, you stated that you were 'saved' by a gun owner.

I have never said I was saved by an average Joe gun owner.
A cop or soldier would be a different story.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Looks to me like Mike proved his point and submitted valid information. You submit only one source. That was a real nice graph... where does it cover?

Dude, this graph came from the document Mike submitted which you claimed to be "valid information". Yet it is clear you didn't even read this document (despite claiming it being "valid information"). If you read it, you would see that this "real nice graph" is right there, on page 8 of this document.

Your bias is getting more and more obvious.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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That (poorly attributed, poorly defined) graph shows a constant increase from 1999 till 2006, and then a decline that is still above the 1999 starting point.

This is because a 1997 anti-gun law made illegal a lot of things which were legal before. Therefore a person doing exactly the same things in 1996 as they did in 1998 was now committing a crime, maybe unknowingly - despite the fact that his behavior didn't change. This is clearly shown on page 3 graph - the amount of violent crime (which is the only kind of crime guns can be used to commit) dropped significantly from 1997 to 2008/2009. This means the "constant increase in gun crime" from 1997 to 2005 was not related to using guns to commit crimes, but was violation of the laws related to guns themselves, like illegally keeping a handgun. Once the nation is educated about the new law and that it is getting enforced, this type of crime starts going down - which is exactly what the plot shows.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[masterrig 1]

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Europe's gun laws! Guns started in Europe with the advent of gunpowder. That sperad to the U.S. and we began to manufacture guns. With that in mind... Europe started it all!

And they pretty much ended it for themselves - so they are kinda ahead, correct? :)

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John is not my only source. He does come across with 'good' information.

and the only reason it looks "good" is because it is often misleading, or an outright lie. Like with gun crime in UK

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I guess, it depends on whose stats you read. All I could find was how England's gun-crime rate was way up, last year.

That is because you were reading JR (or nralia, which is basically the same). Do not expect to find any unbiased information from them. mnealtx just provided direct evidence from UK government which shows that gun crime is down, not up.

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What I don't understand is, you are so much against guns yet, you stated that you were 'saved' by a gun owner.

I have never said I was saved by an average Joe gun owner.
A cop or soldier would be a different story.

That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.
Which was it? 'Average Joe Gun owner' a cop or a soldier who saved you?
Looks to me like you twisted John's and Mikes information to suit yoursel and your 'cause', whatever that is.
This is getting nowhere real fast. I'm done. You can rail all you want against guns but let me say this... there will always be guns. In 'good' hands' or 'bad'. Quit beating your head on a wall and stop and smell the roses.


Chuck

[georgerussia 0]

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That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.

Unfortunately it's mostly gun zealots who play with numbers.

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You can rail all you want against guns but let me say this... there will always be guns.

20 years ago one would say "there will always be tobacco". I'm not in hurry.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rushmc 18]

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That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.

Unfortunately it's mostly gun zealots who play with numbers.

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You can rail all you want against guns but let me say this... there will always be guns.

20 years ago one would say "there will always be tobacco". I'm not in hurry.

You cant but tobacco anymore??

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[masterrig 1]

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Quote

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That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.

Unfortunately it's mostly gun zealots who play with numbers.

Quote

You can rail all you want against guns but let me say this... there will always be guns.

20 years ago one would say "there will always be tobacco". I'm not in hurry.

You cant but tobacco anymore??

News to me! I can still buy snuff.


Chuck

[rushmc 18]

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Quote

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That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.

Unfortunately it's mostly gun zealots who play with numbers.

Quote

You can rail all you want against guns but let me say this... there will always be guns.

20 years ago one would say "there will always be tobacco". I'm not in hurry.

You cant but tobacco anymore??

News to me! I can still buy snuff.


Chuck

I would suck if I could not get my fav cigar anymore

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[masterrig 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.

Unfortunately it's mostly gun zealots who play with numbers.

Quote

You can rail all you want against guns but let me say this... there will always be guns.

20 years ago one would say "there will always be tobacco". I'm not in hurry.

You cant but tobacco anymore??

News to me! I can still buy snuff.


Chuck

I would suck if I could not get my fav cigar anymore

Back when I drank and smoked, there was nothing like a good cigar and a cold mug of good beer!

Chuck

[rushmc 18]

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Quote

Quote

Quote

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That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.

Unfortunately it's mostly gun zealots who play with numbers.

Quote

You can rail all you want against guns but let me say this... there will always be guns.

20 years ago one would say "there will always be tobacco". I'm not in hurry.

You cant but tobacco anymore??

News to me! I can still buy snuff.


Chuck

I would suck if I could not get my fav cigar anymore

Back when I drank and smoked, there was nothing like a good cigar and a cold mug of good beer!

Chuck

Yes
Sitting on the deck with the sun setting

or

On the water in your boat

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[masterrig 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.

Unfortunately it's mostly gun zealots who play with numbers.

Quote

You can rail all you want against guns but let me say this... there will always be guns.

20 years ago one would say "there will always be tobacco". I'm not in hurry.

You cant but tobacco anymore??

News to me! I can still buy snuff.


Chuck

I would suck if I could not get my fav cigar anymore

Back when I drank and smoked, there was nothing like a good cigar and a cold mug of good beer!

Chuck

Yes
Sitting on the deck with the sun setting

or

On the water in your boat

...and trying to get the 'perfect' smoke-ring. Ah! The good life!


Chuck

[rushmc 18]

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Quote

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That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.

Unfortunately it's mostly gun zealots who play with numbers.

Quote

You can rail all you want against guns but let me say this... there will always be guns.

20 years ago one would say "there will always be tobacco". I'm not in hurry.

You cant but tobacco anymore??

News to me! I can still buy snuff.


Chuck

I would suck if I could not get my fav cigar anymore

Back when I drank and smoked, there was nothing like a good cigar and a cold mug of good beer!

Chuck

Yes
Sitting on the deck with the sun setting

or

On the water in your boat

...and trying to get the 'perfect' smoke-ring. Ah! The good life!


Chuck

Ah yes

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[masterrig 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.

Unfortunately it's mostly gun zealots who play with numbers.

Quote

You can rail all you want against guns but let me say this... there will always be guns.

20 years ago one would say "there will always be tobacco". I'm not in hurry.

You cant but tobacco anymore??

News to me! I can still buy snuff.


Chuck

I would suck if I could not get my fav cigar anymore

Back when I drank and smoked, there was nothing like a good cigar and a cold mug of good beer!

Chuck

Yes
Sitting on the deck with the sun setting

or

On the water in your boat

...and trying to get the 'perfect' smoke-ring. Ah! The good life!


Chuck

Ah yes

How could I forget? Talking guns!


Chuck

[rushmc 18]

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[masterrig 1]

Chuck

[mnealtx 0]

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That's straight from the Home Office, George, so your 'cherry-picking' red herring ain't working this time.

"Straight from the Home Office" information shows that the gun crime is DOWN - and it shows it extremely clear on a plot I attached above.

Go hit the link - you'll see it is a publication from the Home Office. Nice try, though.

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You had to do extreme cherry-picking (like pointing out that shotgun crime increased by 2% or 15(!) crimes), and completely ignoring drop in "other/unidentified firearm" to falsely claim that "'decrease' was criminals deciding not to use the fake guns anymore, while use of REAL guns rose. real weapon crime is up".

So complain to the Home Office - it's THEIR info, not something fabricated from thin air like most of your arguing points.

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What part of "Imitation weapons were used in 1,502 offences in 2008/09, 41 per cent fewer than in the previous year" gave you the difficulty?

What part of "unidentified firearm" drop by 27% and "other firearm" drop by 33% gave you the difficulty so you falsely claimed that "use of real guns rose"? Where did you get the information that all unidentified and other firearms are not real guns?

[mnealtx 0]

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I am not interested of how a minority of armed people protects themselves from crimes

This is exactly what I talked above.
What I wrote was "I'm not interested in A" (i.e. I'm not interested in stories how gun owners protected themselves), and that's all your quotes confirm.

What you claimed that I said "I'll only accept B" (i.e. I will ignore any stories besides when gun owners protected someone else).

This is false. For example, I'm interested in stories when a gun owner committed yet another stupid crime or went crazy. It is clear as I have been posting those stories for a while.

You, however, claimed that "only examples of gun owners coming to the rescue of people like him that refuse to protect themselves are acceptable". Your claim is FALSE, this is not the only example I'm interested in, and there is a huge difference between "interested" and "acceptable".

You're right, I apologize. I *did* misrepresent your interest.

Chuck - George is only interested in defense stories where a gun owner saved the ass of someone like him who won't defend himself, OR any shooting story that puts a gun owner in a bad light.

There you go, George - all straightened out, now!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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That the way it is with numbers... you can play them all you want and have them read any which way you want.

Unfortunately it's mostly gun zealots who play with numbers.

Oh, the irony.

But I'm sure you'd deny any knowledge of Kellerman or "Arming America."

[kelpdiver 2]

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That (poorly attributed, poorly defined) graph shows a constant increase from 1999 till 2006, and then a decline that is still above the 1999 starting point.

This is because a 1997 anti-gun law made illegal a lot of things which were legal before. Therefore a person doing exactly the same things in 1996 as they did in 1998 was now committing a crime, maybe unknowingly - despite the fact that his behavior didn't change. This is clearly shown on page 3 graph - the amount of violent crime (which is the only kind of crime guns can be used to commit) dropped significantly from 1997 to 2008/2009. This means the "constant increase in gun crime" from 1997 to 2005 was not related to using guns to commit crimes, but was violation of the laws related to guns themselves, like illegally keeping a handgun. Once the nation is educated about the new law and that it is getting enforced, this type of crime starts going down - which is exactly what the plot shows.

It's astounding how you much you're able to infer from that undetailed graph. You're FUCKING AMAZING!

(or more likely, shoveling it pretty thick.)