Otter door open on takeoff

[likearock 1]

Everyone who's flown an Otter in hot weather knows and appreciates the fact that it is certified to fly with the door open. However, at most places, the door is closed just before takeoff and not re-opened before reaching 1000 feet. I've been told that the primary reason for this is, in the even of an engine out on takeoff, you don't further destabilize the aircraft by having the door open. Clearly, stability during takeoff when you have less room to maneuver is more critical than once you've achieved some altitude.

However, not being a DHC-6 pilot myself, I'd like to know if what I've been told holds any weight with those people who actually fly the Otters. In particular, I wonder if there are any pilots who have actually experienced engine out with the door open. If it turns out that an open door does make engine out on takeoff less manageable, the USPA should lobby to have a FAR established that mandates having the door closed from takeoff to 1000 feet.

I realize that this is a hot issue right now with the recent crash in Missouri. It's been reported, but not absolutely established, that their Otter took off with the door fully opened. Nobody wants to help the lawyers that are suing a DZ. However, if this information can help prevent further incidents like this, what is more important in the overall scale of things?

[BIGUN 1,053]

For me, it's not so much the aerodynamics of the aircraft as much as it's a safety issue to have the door closed the first 1,000' in the event a reserve near the door pops open while the skydiver is belted in. IMO, the door should be closed to 1000' for this reason and should only be opened after the one opening the door has announced they're going to - and ensuring the seatlbelts are off before opening it.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[likearock 1]

Quote

For me, it's not so much the aerodynamics of the aircraft as much as it's a safety issue to have the door closed the first 1,000' in the event a reserve near the door pops open while the skydiver is belted in. IMO, the door should be closed to 1000' for this reason and should only be opened after the one opening the door has announced they're going to - and ensuring the seatlbelts are off before opening it.

That's definitely an issue. However, if it's perceived as the only issue, you might find when there is a light load (as was the case in Missouri), DZs may start to bend the rules on really hot days. Why not keep the door open if everyone is strapped in a good distance away?

[mjosparky 3]

This guy has been around a long time and has flown just about everything that has carried jumpers. He is worth listening to.


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2357406;search_string=aircraft%20safety;#2357406

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

This guy has been around a long time and has flown just about everything that has carried jumpers. He is worth listening to.


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2357406;search_string=aircraft%20safety;#2357406

Yup...

How many qualified SkyVan 'Glider' pilots do ya know?!

~Expediting the jumper exit~
Jumper:"But which way are we heading?"

Zing: "Mostly DOWN!"

Gotta LOVE a real JUMP PILOT!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

This guy has been around a long time and has flown just about everything that has carried jumpers. He is worth listening to.


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2357406;search_string=aircraft%20safety;#2357406

Yup...

How many qualified SkyVan 'Glider' pilots do ya know?!

~Expediting the jumper exit~
Jumper:"But which way are we heading?"

Zing: "Mostly DOWN!"

Gotta LOVE a real JUMP PILOT!

That sounds like vintage Zing.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,396]

>Why not keep the door open if everyone is strapped in a good distance away?

1) "A good distance" will be decided ever more loosely as the temperature increases. (When it's hot people WANT to be near the door.)

2) A good reserve PC spring can launch a PC many meters.

3) Tires can (and have) kick stuff through the open door and into skydivers.

I don't think it's a very big deal to keep the door closed for even 1000 feet. It need only take about 90 seconds, from beginning of takeoff roll to clearing 1000 feet. (Of course many DZ's keep the door closed until 1500 or 2000 feet.)

[divnswoop 0]

Quote

the USPA should lobby to have a FAR established that mandates having the door closed from takeoff to 1000 feet.

I don't think we should lobby for a FAR. One, I don't think we don't need them taking a closer look at skydiving. Two, some DZ's don't care about FAR's and break them anyway. Many places either don't know or just don't care what is "safer".

[likearock 1]

Quote

This guy has been around a long time and has flown just about everything that has carried jumpers. He is worth listening to.


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2357406;search_string=aircraft%20safety;#2357406

Thanks Sparky. That is indeed a very informative, well thought out post.

Quote

The open door on take off could spell the difference between a safe landing or a mulitiple fatality crash when an engine fails during rotation and lift off. I do not mean to imply 203E's door was open. I don't know if it was or not. It's irrelavent to this post. But, I can't even tell you how many times I've stopped at the end of the runway and held take off until the door was closed, only to feel and hear it re-open as the aircraft rolled down the runway. Twice, I've aborted take offs and informed the jumpers that if it happened again, they would no longer be welcome in any airplane I was flying. Needless to say, that action wasn't popular with dropzone management at more than one DZ.

I took away two things from this passage. First, that a highly knowledgeable and experienced pilot thinks that keeping the door closed on takeoff is critical in the event that an engine goes out. Second, that there is still a considerable amount of resistance from skydivers in sticking to the simple rule of door closed till 1000 feet.

From divnswoop:

Quote

I don't think we should lobby for a FAR. One, I don't think we don't need them taking a closer look at skydiving. Two, some DZ's don't care about FAR's and break them anyway. Many places either don't know or just don't care what is "safer".

I'd rather not get the FAA involved as well unless it's necessary. I'm hoping that this incident will put the fear of God in skydivers across the world so that they will religiously see that the door is closed on takeoff. Much the same way as when the Perris crash forced skydivers to be more conscientious about seatbelts. However, in the event this shit keeps occurring, I'd rather have a regulation that can penalize those who ignore good common sense.

[divnswoop 0]

Quote

However, in the event this shit keeps occurring, I'd rather have a regulation that can penalize those who ignore good common sense.

I agree.....but know it won't make a difference in some places.....


Here is a poll I started (kinda ironicly) the week before the MO crash. Granted some may have voted a certain way just as a "joke" or whatever. But, I have seen many DZ's that follow the last two options...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2346398#2346398

...but a crash will never happen to them.

[padalcek 9]

Quote

I'd rather have a regulation that can penalize those who ignore good common sense.

if FAA gets involved the only person that'll really get penalized is the one that's already telling you what's right - the pilot.

Padalcek - CCO, HF-17
http://www.theflyinghellfish.com
I'm not a real skydiver - but I do play one on dz.com.

[ntrprnr 0]

Quote

>Why not keep the door open if everyone is strapped in a good distance away?

1) "A good distance" will be decided ever more loosely as the temperature increases. (When it's hot people WANT to be near the door.)

2) A good reserve can launch a PC many meters.

3) Tires can (and have) kick stuff through the open door and into skydivers.

I don't think it's a very big deal to keep the door closed for even 1000 feet. It need only take about 90 seconds, from beginning of takeoff roll to clearing 1000 feet. (Of course many DZ's keep the door closed until 1500 or 2000 feet.)

Seriously, people. Suck it up. It's 1,000 feet. We can't be uncomfortable for 1000 feet to make our safety a little more paramount? Jesus.

_______________
"Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?"
"Even in freefall, I have commitment issues."

[riggerrob 558]

The average skydiver has the attention span of a weasel on crack!
Hee!
Hee!
That's why they cannot bear to sweat for an extra minute. Asking them to adhere to a written regulation is worse than a waste of time.

Operating procedures differ widely from one DZ to the next. For example, at Pitt Meadows, only the pilot is allowed to touch the door handles of our Cessnas.
Opening the door of our King Air may make the guys near the door slightly cooler, but I rarely feel the breeze when I am sitting near the front with a tandem student.Oh! and we only open the King Air door halfway, because any more results in an annoying vibration that the pilot can feel, but not the jumpers near the door.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Oh! and we only open the King Air door halfway, because any more results in an annoying vibration that the pilot can feel, but not the jumpers near the door.

I feel it! Making me cold and buzzy.

[AFFI 0]

Quote

For me, it's not so much the aerodynamics of the aircraft as much as it's a safety issue to have the door closed the first 1,000' in the event a reserve near the door pops open while the skydiver is belted in. IMO, the door should be closed to 1000' for this reason and should only be opened after the one opening the door has announced they're going to - and ensuring the seatlbelts are off before opening it.

I'm with Keith on this one... A few minutes of uncomfortable for mounds of comfort!

[popsjumper 2]

Keeping the door closed until you reach a jumpable altitude and all seatbelts are off is good advice as Bigun and others have already stated.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[CrazyL 0]

Oh the door issue. This is my first season at this DZ. While it was really hot here this summer. Some jumpers liked to open the door under 1,000 ft. Tandem masters yelling for the door shortly after take off and such.Not so with me on the aircraft. Being a well respected skydiver here. My opinion was worth more than just a grain of salt. While I was on the A/C the door stayed closed till 1,000 ft. At times I pissed some jumpers off for holding the door closed ,making sure the seatbelts were off at 1,000 ft, tandems within range of the door had at least 1 upper connection fastened, with the aircraft flying smooth,having some jumpers check their main pilot chute,camera guys holding their gear, then and only then would i open the door. For the rare time that a jumper would go for the door early I would voice my opinion to them, more times than not, the door stayed closed till 1,000 ft. For the jumpers and the pilot, take off in the aircraft is one of the more hazardous things that will happen on the skydive. give the pilot the best chance of survival and keep the door closed till above, 1000 ft. No one is jumping below 1,000 ft. pilot chutes can slip right out the door hince the reason for removing seat belts prior to opening the door. We wear seatbelts so that if there is a problem during take off , the cargo (jumpers) does'nt shift the center of gravity (cg) during the most critical time, take off, giving the pilot maximum control during take off. Door closed during take off = better aerodynamic flow for the aircraft. So there you go, these are some reasons why i choose to stick to keeping the door closed till 1,000 ft.By the way i'm not a pilot, yet a jumper. Happy Skydiving!!!

[recovercrachead 0]

Plane takes off door closed. Then door opens a couple of inches (5-10). Then at 1000 door is open all away. I think thats how it works at the no rule DZ.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[likearock 1]

Quote

Quote

I'd rather have a regulation that can penalize those who ignore good common sense.

if FAA gets involved the only person that'll really get penalized is the one that's already telling you what's right - the pilot.

So you're saying that the pilot tells them to keep the door closed but they don't do it? If the skydivers aren't listening to the pilot, there's a lot more things wrong than just door open

[CrazyL 0]

Let's see, a hackey handle is about 2 1/2 inches in diameter, if the door is open 1 inch the hackey handle will not physically be able to go beyond the door. If the door is cracked open 2 1/2 inches or more the hackey can physically make it out the door, while the jumper seatbelted in the aircraft then would be anchored to the aircraft by the seatbelt as the parachute is trying to deploy while they are still in the aircraft risking their own life as well as everyone on board. Ya know this scenario really sucks. I still like the scenario of seatbelts on till atleast 1,000 ft,leave the door closed till atleast 1,000 ft , make sure seatbelts are removed, pilot chutes checked, tandems near the door have atleast one upper attachment, then open the door. I can wait, even on the hottest of days, i can wait.

[Ron 7]

The door should be closed for take off and stay closed until 1,000 feet AGL and all seatbelts have been removed.

The drag from an open door will increase the drag on the plane and will cause problems if an engine goes out.

Question...How much does the thrust/drag ratio get thrown off if one engine on a twin stops?

Hint: It is way more than 50%

Also, keep the door closed until the seat belts are off. Having a person being drug out by a PC and held in the plane by a seat belt is...well just really bad.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

The anoying thing about this topic is the Pilots and DZOs own the ultimate hammer that could stop such misbehavior as opening the door before it should be. Problem is, most of the time it isn't exercised in lieu of "playing the odds" that nothing will go wrong in favor of protecting the "bottom line"... $

[Zing 2]

I'm a pilot. How many times have I said it? Too numerous to count ... how many more times will it take?

Zing Lurks

[bob.dino 0]

Quote

I'm a pilot. How many times have I said it? Too numerous to count ... how many more times will it take?

Until the owner of the DZ takes an interest? I know that at my DZ I'd most likely be grounded if I tried a stunt like reopening the door after the pilot asked that it be closed. But then, the DZ owner is a jump pilot, as is the manager.

Actually, we don't ever fully open the door during climb. We occasionally crack it open six inches or so in the height of summer, but that's about it. If people near the front complain, just open your window. Lets enough air in to cool the jumper's area significantly.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

If it turns out that an open door does make engine out on takeoff less manageable, the USPA should lobby to have a FAR established that mandates having the door closed from takeoff to 1000 feet.

This would screw over planes that don't have doors which aren't being used in skydiving operations.