Freedom OF religion means freedom FROM religion

zagijimzoo · March 5, 2010

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I agree, it will make way for the new heavens and earth He has in store for us. Rev 21:1-5
P.S. No more tears or suffering because the old things will have passed away.

Oh i can't wait! Dude didn't have enough intelligence to get it right the first time so your going bet all your bananas that he's going to get it right the second time! What if he/she totally has another brain fart and forgets the whole love, pleasure and happiness part and its all just suffering! Maybe the third go around will be the charm

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Ever stop long enough to wonder, just for a millisecond, that you might be missing the big picture?

yeah tell that to a blind person with no arms suffering from throat cancer, chronic spinal pain and genital herpes!

Better yet...why don't you go to the dentist and ask him to drill out all your teeth without novacane, then have your eyes, ears, tongue, arms, removed and then fill me in on this big picture i'm missing! Oh...thats right...you can't speak or write! but here's some morphine you can mix with your chemo for your chronic pelvic pain!

Meso · March 5, 2010

Ever stopped to think, just for a milisecond- that the picture you're looking at is not really a picture at all but an illusion brought on by a psychological need for comfort in life.

Sure, you can walk through the halls of an art gallary but no brush can create what you see when you close your eyes.

RackJR · March 5, 2010

Ryno come on man. you're sitting in a pretty cushy spot to be saying there's a purpose of greater good behind the brutal torture and murder of thousands of people. i can't believe you're actually defending that period as a good thing because it served a higher purpose. do you really not see how repulsive that line of reasoning is? how dangerously close it is to the reasoning that brought it about in the first place? the people who perpetrated those crimes were the absolute authority on the very book you're claiming to have a deep understanding of. if there was a purpose to the inquisition, it should be that future generations see what happens when religious power is allowed to run wild. yes, the entire history of man has been brutal. for a group that you claim is all about love, christianity has had at least it's share of brutality.

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In that, whatever the purpose of evil is, it seems to always serve the purpose of good. In that whatever is sown in weakness is raised in power. In that whatever was blind has been given sight. In that whatever was hated and rejected was passionately desired and loved. While its very easy to blame Gods purpose, the understanding and revelation often comes at the end of all the bitterness and blame that attempted to steer you away from the truth.

do you really think that those people who found themselves on the torture table would have been interested in what you're getting at here? a metal box with no bottom is placed on their abdomen. rats are placed in the box and the lid closed. the box is heated with flame until the rats, desperate to escape, burrow into the abdomen of the "sinner". or they're burned alive. or (the one's who receive the lords mercy) are garroted, then burned. do you really think they would give a shit about your idea of a greater good? how can you be seriously defending the god that you claim made this happen for the greater good? by "greater good" do you mean the financial gain of the inquisitors? and all at the hands of people who, just like you, claim to have knowledge about this book that the rest of us don't have. i have such a hard time believing that you can't see basis for the claim that you will discard any evidence that doesn't fit into your belief system. you work backwards from your belief that you have the truth. you label this atrocity as "purposeful" so that it can fit into your truth that god is always good, always correct, made all this happen, and this is all his plan for a better world.

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This statement lead me to assume you saw no purpose in the Inquisition.

i don't see a purpose to the inquisition either, at least, not the way you mean. to me, it is a grim reminder of what the world will be like if we allow people of faith to have that kind of power again. the dark ages were many centuries of fear, repression, torture, rape (and of course completely stifled scientific inquiry). all by divine providence. if christians had been the one's during these times who had sheltered people from harm, or argued for the end of the inquisition, decried the use of torture, or denounced the confiscation of property, maybe you'd have some ground to stand on. they weren't. they were leading the whole thing! since you said it, try to share with all of us what the greater good might have been please. i know, i know, the lord works in mysterious ways. a mere mortal like me can't see the whole picture. his plan will be revealed. but you're in touch with the gospels, you love to say it. tens of thousands of people had to be tortured, and thousands burned alive because......??? here's your chance. detail the purpose for me. for us.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

kallend · March 5, 2010

+1

Interesting that when someone is rescued alive from the rubble of an earthquake the family thanks god for a miracle, but when hundreds, thousands or more are killed by an earthquake, its just part of god's greater purpose.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

rynodigsmusic · March 5, 2010

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i can't believe you're actually defending that period as a good thing because it served a higher purpose. do you really not see how repulsive that line of reasoning is

Im just accepting it, not at all condoning it or defending it. Its in the past, and it is inevitable that we grow from the lessons whether we blame the methods or not. To be honest, purpose is something I see in everything, why would our sick ass minds be any different? Give me just one example of something that has life without purpose? It seems even in the theory of evolution (the one without God) science claims we came from bacteria. If thats the case, I guess even the bacteria had purpose aye? For those who never stop learning, while I know you dont like to hear it, purpose (light) is often found even in the darkest of dawns.

I can fully understand you hearing my hypocrisy. Not being exposed to that kind of evil does give me a "cush" spot. I can only hope I'll not have to experience the evils Job had to. Or any of those on the other end of deception and evil. Seems to me, in this search for truth and pureness of heart, we are flooded in the shadow of lies. Poetic or not, it seems to be very true.

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the people who perpetrated those crimes were the absolute authority on the very book you're claiming to have a deep understanding of.

Authority in the law and letter, not in the spirit. I never claimed to have deep understanding of anything, I am only speaking the truth of what I know. Thats it. But, I do, of course, see your point and certainly see how people can see me speaking the truth I accepted as coming from a self righteous hypocrite. Its very design is to separate and discern pureness from falseness. While you see falseness, others may see pureness. Depends on how pure or how false the perceptions of the ones looking on are I guess. (No implication whatsoever)

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and all at the hands of people who, just like you, claim to have knowledge about this book that the rest of us don't have. i have such a hard time believing that you can't see basis for the claim that you will discard any evidence that doesn't fit into your belief system.

Again, I dont discard it. I "filter it with the truth of the Gospel" (BillVon). Jesus tells us that "Heaven is within you". If Heaven is, then hell must be as well right? Then if there are people living with hell in them, i wonder what they would be capable of? Hells very pathway to death is deception. Im not talking about a little lie, im talking about a fixed chasm that cannot be crossed. The very line between pure and false. Now, while many of you continue to blame this design for what you have only percieved as imperfect, the balance is still maintained, and that chasm cannot be crossed...

26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' (Luke 16)

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you label this atrocity as "purposeful" so that it can fit into your truth that god is always good, always correct, made all this happen, and this is all his plan for a better world.

Bro, once again, this is not my truth, it is the one I accepted. Why is acceptance considered more un-intelligent than blame in many circles?

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to me, it is a grim reminder of what the world will be like if we allow people of faith to have that kind of power again.

Right, like Hitler, Stalin, and many other examples of men completely influenced and controlled by their own evil and deceptive agendas... Justified in the name of goodness. The power you speak of is the power of deception, not truth. Calling it religion is more than fair. Calling it the truth of Jesus is a bit naive and argumentative. respectively.

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if christians had been the one's during these times who had sheltered people from harm, or argued for the end of the inquisition, decried the use of torture, or denounced the confiscation of property, maybe you'd have some ground to stand on. they weren't.

read this... this is the spirit those in your examples claimed to have followed. These are the words of the apostle Paul.

10As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. (2 Corinthians)

24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked

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his plan will be revealed.

Is being revealed. Not will be. Is being.

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here's your chance. detail the purpose for me. for us.

What makes you think I know the purpose? All I can do is "detail" what I know. The next post I write will attempt to do just that. But just like trying to write the perfect song (impossible for man), Im sure it will lack the "perfection" you are seemingly hoping to hear.

"We didn't start the fire"

rynodigsmusic · March 5, 2010

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detail the purpose for me. for us.

Sorry, I cant help it, I think I like to write or something... you dont have to read it you know. As I said before, this is only the detail of what I believe. I dont know Gods mind, "but we do have the mind of Christ". With genuine faith, and the glory of God, nothing will be impossible. This is not all I believe, there is more of course, and I am always trying to learn and stay open to the direction and movement of God.

I guess this is the way he decided to reveal himself, through hell. But love is an energy, or power, that seems to have a very strong connection with life. It has power that seems to go beyond the grave with no problem. If people never see it as more than an emotion, then it is the greatest and most sought after one (if its known anyway). Personally, im really looking forward to when everyone gets it, because at that moment, the source behind its energy.. pure wisdom, and the very nature of love and promise, will be revealed to the whole earth. And everyone, operating by pure faith, with absolutely no doubt, will live here with power in the mind thought impossible to us now. Dont know why, through his infinite wisdom, he decided to create (grow) the evolved wisdom in the mind and life of man on earth, with such a disposition to evil, but, he did. And wisdom still teaches faith is more pure than man, and a promise from man means nothing like a promise in faith, but for some reason, we have to have a hell before a heaven is revealed. And that alone keeps people from seeing the truth because I guess they feel as if they can do better?

But there is obviously something great in mans mind and if faith can only be created through this hell, then so be it. Coincidentally enough, it is the moment you accept that (his will), that you no longer question his methods. A fault in wisdom? Is there such a thing? Wisdom teaches that humbleness is the way. It is the way of the future. "The meek will inherit the earth". Not only that, you feel almost shamed when you question God, (I had plenty questions) because your pride becomes much more visible than before, something that helps me in the way of humbleness. I still ask though. I just dont feel like I have the right to question anymore, but thats just me. I know I cant do better than God, I can see that in my own life alone. But he doesnt ask us at all to do better, he just asks us to be real and follow his heart(name). Thats the way. Thats how he grows the faith that is needed to carry his wisdom, but Jesus is clear, we arent there yet. But the faster we get there, the more change. That is, as we grow in wisdom, so does the change. The signs are real, they dont at all care if we believe them or not. They are only a sign of the direction of this creation of life and earth. But he clearly is making a new earth and a new heaven, and "righteousness will be the sceptor". Jesus likens righteousness to faith. As did Paul when he compared it to Abraham "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness"... credited to him as faith. "In regards to righteousness, because I am going back to the father, where you will see me no more"

Im sorry that people dont like that wisdom was given to the Jews. It had to come from somewhere right (the moment it revealed its plan for this creation)? Again, Ill ask, show me anything in any other faith that, in matters of righteousness and goodness, that is not found in the Gospel. Not at all an attack on any other faiths, just a point, that the greatest reward of faith is love. Wisdom clearly is teaching us love. But, also, that with as powerful as our minds are, that is, the ability to hold infinite truth, we also have the ability to grow towards this incredible revelation of love with that same amount of power. So anything that is on the side of love is on the side of wisdom. But you cant find love without wisdom (life), and you cant find wisdom without life, but love still seems to be greater than all those things. Think about it. What good would it be to have the perfect world where anything is possible, but not have love? What good would life be without love? No. wisdom wants us completely saturated, transcendent on a unviersal (as we are in the universe, or multi or whatever) level.. just one existance in time and space that is full of the energy and power of God. God is faith. He speaks, or wishes, and it is. The voice is the absolute spirit of creation, the very nature of being. You ask why now? Because he is always moving. Never changing, but always moving.

Now your saying why not just create the perfect world right? But you dont see how perfect this world is becoming. Wisdom has a system of inevitability. Life is a very wise design to say the least. Enough for me to accept it is smarter than me anyway, and probably knows more too. If this is hellish world is what it takes to inspire this universal change of creation that God has promised through Jesus (infinite wisdom), then who are we to say the design is not even close to perfect? While we sit here and mess it all up, “observe” it, and pick it apart piece by piece as if we could do it way better, the future has already spoken itself into existence, and through that voice he said that faith is the way to life. That you find it, or you dont. If you have faith, you'll have life, if you dont, you cant, this is the message. It is incredible the life, love, and change it brings.. I certainly wasnt prepared for it. And I am definitely not saying that I have a "better" life, because if it is compared to the successes and glories of this world, it may not be seen as fulfilling to others anyway, but it aparently has no problem sounding self-righteous to some. But the truth is that everything with faith is growing closer and closer to the light (just like a natural plant) and that light is a great one. Certainly it has surprised me, and Im sure others feel the same. All things on the earth will eventually be under the light (always growing under grace). Hence, Heaven on earth. All things will be possible. There will be nothing impossible when we tap into the power of faith in our minds as a universal being, as one conciousness all connected with, not for, the nature of wisdom, which is the very connection of love and life. Wisdom is doing some pretty remarkable things to say the least all while many clearly assume they can do better. Wisdom must be very patient.

Nevertheless, if this makes me uncredible, or completely disregarded as a “free thinker”, it doesnt really bother me. But, the Gospel is full of wisdom. Just yesterday I gave my brother some. If he listens, he will come out on top, if he doesnt, the path will be rough until he realizes what is being taught and revealed. Pure faith is the future, though small now, when God has made his full "move", everything will come together. No doubt. Im not at all talking about whether God exists or not, im talking about faith in what he is able to do... in what is possible. In what is possible if a creation existed on the earth that had the faith and love of Jesus. Gravity? Im talking about the entire wisdom and power of the universe. Gravity would be about as interesting as a toe nail if you were a piece of the wisdom of the universe. It seems to live, not only in life, which is also always moving, but in mans mind (lifes creation). The mind is a power thing? That is an incredible understatement. Right now our words reflect human intelligence, inevitably, they will reflect the very power of faith in God. It is revealing more of itself. Ironically enough, as it is evolving into its own inevitabliltiy, people use the truth of that evolution as “more than enough” reason to deny its very existence. Clearly, it is evolving into a new creation, or species, with power in the mind, not the body. With power in faith, not in human intelligence. While I know, many believe they can do better that God (based on posts I read), if you just look around, you may see that is not at all what is being revealed to the new creation. Faith is. Life has shown, regardless what is believed, that love is inspired by faith.

People who know the Gospel will be able to testify if what is being said is found in its truth. I am always open to rebuke and wisdom. As you said earlier, feel free to shred it if you like.

"We didn't start the fire"

RackJR · March 6, 2010

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To be honest, purpose is something I see in everything

to be honest, you need to say that purpose is something you must see in everything, in order to keep your belief systems valid. which is why you would say that this atrocity contains purpose, and why i must reiterate that your idea of purpose would earn you great enmity from those who fall victim to said purpose. how about, as a group, you start volunteering. instead of shooting abortion doctors, you offer yourself as a sacrifice. instead of killing gay college students, zealot christians will find you, standing in their stead. if they must kill, let them take the name at the top of the list of volunteers, and kill them. you will die for your purpose. your group of christians can kill each other, instead of enforcing your idea of law on the rest of us, who don't share your sense of purpose. if you think there's purpose to all of it, let your death speak for your conviction. save the lives of others. make a stand, to prove that christianity is not about harming those who don't believe. show the world that the old testament is the old way, and a new way, and purpose, is here.

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Authority in the law and letter, not in the spirit.

that's not what they claimed. that's simply what you are claiming now, so that it continues to fit into your belief system. without that belief system, it is much easier to see those acts for what they were.

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Right, like Hitler, Stalin, and many other examples of men completely influenced and controlled by their own evil and deceptive agendas...

i'm sorry, but your own line of reasoning is failing here. i don't think it's consistent of you to claim a purpose for the inquisition, carried out by the church, and claim these men were completely influenced by their own evil and deceptive agendas. either these atrocities are the work of god, or they're not. the same way that the atrocities in the bible are either the work of god, or not. since you'll undoubtedly say they are the work of men, i'll amend that to read, either they are the purpose of god, or not.

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Calling it religion is more than fair. Calling it the truth of Jesus is a bit naive and argumentative.

jesus and god are the same. you say that when it fits your purpose. say it when it doesn't as well. the things we're talking about are shameful atrocities. the fact that the bible changes it's tune (somewhat) in the new testament doesn't mean you can discard the rest. if you're going to claim that jesus fulfilled the law with his sacrifice, please also tell me the chapter and verse where he negated the previous laws in the same plain language he used to invoke them.

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is a bit naive and argumentative. respectively.

"i said, 'with all due respect' ".-Ricky Bobby, Talledega nights.

you previously labeled me as limited. today it's naive and argumentative. but you did it with respect. i'll answer that i think religious people are blithe simpletons who's fear about the realities of life are strong enough that they set aside their rationality, and replace it with strong irrational belief in an imaginary superpower residing in the sky and a 2000 year old book that makes little, if any, sense. respectfully.

have i treated you with respect? we are diametrically opposed on this issue. obviously, it is simply the desire to debate which fuels us, since neither of us is in any danger of converting. i don't think in my previous posts that i've labeled you in the way you seem to be ok with labeling me. in fact i try hard to stay away from it. tacking on "respectively" at the end does not negate what you said. or make it respectful. diametric opposition means that the conversation may occasionally be argumentative. it does not have to be insulting. there may be things i am naive about. do you live with the humbleness you aspire to, by calling me so? or by pointing those things out? let's admit that we don't agree. i will freely admit that i'm not an authority on the bible. however, having been brought up christian, and having spent a large part of my adult life reading all kinds of book (atheist as well as christian), i guess i don't consider myself naive on this subject. if my thoughts don't agree with yours, which they probably won't, maybe we can do without the labels?

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Is being revealed. Not will be. Is being.

the atrocities of the old testament were 2300 years ago or more. the spanish inquisition (just the spanish one) was roughly 1540-1700 ad, or 160 years of torture and murder. the dark ages, depending on how you calculate it, maybe 600 years long? 6 million jews in ww2, 65 years ago. it wouldn't be very hard to fill in a lot more examples of repulsive acts throughout history, all of which you must label as part of god's purpose in order to keep your belief system intact. seems like an awful lot of suffering was in his perfect plan, over an awful long period of time. seems like it just keeps happening. warring tribes in africa. genocide in boznia. seems to fit right into the biblical plan. seems just like the god of the bible. but it also seems disgustingly easy for every person in your position to say that there's a purpose to it all. i'm sure the religious minded of these periods did, in their own time. pretty easy to say "if only you believed more you'd see it, and it's all being played out now." i have no doubt there will be people like you for the rest of time, arguing that their beliefs are the way, his plan is being revealed right now, if only everyone could see what you see.

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read this... this is the spirit those in your examples claimed to have followed. These are the words of the apostle Paul.

so, this is how the modern day religious person explains the crap the religious of the past did? how will the next generation of religious minded explain the zealots of today? i'm sure in exactly the same way. however, you were responding to me saying that the religious of the inquisitorial period were not there to help stem the tide, rather, they were leading the charge. you didn't offer anything meaningful as a rebuttal, you simply labeled them. not much of a response. more like a deflection.

off to your next post. :)

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

RackJR · March 6, 2010

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I guess this is the way he decided to reveal himself, through hell

i don't know what to say. i just don't get it. i think it will always be a contradiction in my eyes that a benevolent god will reveal himself through something like hell. that an omniscient god could pen something so confusing as the bible. that an omnipotent god would choose such a convoluted path to understanding. that so many could pervert the thing you claim is a simple message of love.

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Coincidentally enough, it is the moment you accept that (his will), that you no longer question his methods

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I just dont feel like I have the right to question anymore, but thats just me.

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Nevertheless, if this makes me uncredible, or completely disregarded as a “free thinker”, it doesnt really bother me.

i guess if you admit that you no longer question the thing you believe in, i'm also gonna guess that no one outside your immediate belief system is gonna label you a free thinker. maybe we have a different definition of free thinking.

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But the faster we get there, the more change.

it's been a couple thousand years. things aren't much different now than they were then, at least in regard to man's inhumanity to their fellow man. we still do things old testament style. several people in recent history have shown the old testament what's what. i'm hoping there's a reasonable time limit to the credibility of a book that promises an omnipotent, omniscient god, who doesn't seem to get to the point. if there's some grace we're supposed to be attaining, it doesn't take much looking around to see that we're not any closer now than we were then.

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He speaks, or wishes, and it is.

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But you dont see how perfect this world is becoming.

i currently live in the middle east. there's a skirmish over here, maybe you've heard about it. there's another around isreal. i could pretty easily go on and on. when you say "perfect", what exactly do you mean? that these things are perfect? that you don't accept that people are dying? that there hasn't been any absolutely huge death toll recently, so it's becoming perfect? how recent? what constitutes huge? like, the earthquake in haiti wasn't recent or huge enough? or chile?

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If this is hellish world is what it takes to inspire this universal change of creation that God has promised through Jesus (infinite wisdom), then who are we to say the design is not even close to perfect?

actually i don't think i'm alone in being quite worried that someone with an outlook similar to yours will release some sort of supervirus, and through their worldwide genocide, bring us all to judgement. or start a nuclear war. or do something along those lines that kills lots of people. if it's all god's plan, then it can't be anything except correct for them to carry that out.

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While I know, many believe they can do better that God (based on posts I read), if you just look around, you may see that is not at all what is being revealed to the new creation.

hmm. i have never really thought about whether i could design a better world than god, probably because i don't believe he exists in the first place, let alone designed it. i do think the world would be better off without god. it won't mean that all the problems will go away. but a lot of them might. i think a lot of people would still find reasons to hate each other, and probably atrocities would still happen. but i do think it would take away the righteousness of a lot of people. we'd all simply be accountable for our own actions. we would all just have this life to work with. if we hurt someone we'd have to ask them for forgiveness. we'd all have only this world to work with. if we waste it, if we hurt each other, we've missed our only chance. maybe people would learn to think a bit more about their actions before they act, think about their words before they speak, and not ask for forgiveness later. we've had christianity for two and half thousand years. i'm ready to give it a go without it.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

RackJR · March 6, 2010

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Nevertheless, if this makes me uncredible, or completely disregarded as a “free thinker”, it doesnt really bother me.

freethinker n. One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in his religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation.
-The American Heritage Dictionary

maybe you can give me your definition.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

rynodigsmusic · March 6, 2010

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freethinker n. One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in his religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation.
-The American Heritage Dictionary

maybe you can give me your definition.

I dont get my definition of love from the dictionary. In fact, many things can be understood without having a dictionary. You may disagree.
But I asked this question before...

"Are the educated considered to be more free in thought than children in wonder"

I may respond to the rest, but if you dont mind my saying so, your not keeping me out of this. This is about what I believe. The entire Gospel is about faith, not intelligence. Not only that, you are avoiding many of the questions I have asked and continuing to give me reasons why you dont believe rather than what it is that you do believe. Am I not showing you that courtesy?

and stop saying I called you limited. As far as what you say, I call a spade a spade. If I feel as if something is argumentative more than sincere, I will tell you, and I will do it with kindness as much as I possibly can. If I think you are being naive, I should be able to say so. Especially when you are saying that the inquistion followed the heart of Jesus. I dont know what I have to do to present myself as willing to discuss, bold in what I believe, full of the truth found in Christ, but, it seems no matter how I try to present myself, I will always be judged by the ones who claim I am judging them.

I do sense alot of sincerity in your posts, but, I have been wrong before. Sometimes people try to trap me, or trick me, or make it sound as if I am saying something that im not. I have no interest in people of that type of character, but it doesnt mean I reject them either. Its just the truth. I like sincerity rather than intelligence. In no way am I saying you are doing this to me, or attempting to do this, I am just saying that I am not interested in that type of discussion. This is merely an emotional speed bump we are having in this discussion, I dont like them much and all they do is slow us down, but, if we both are as sincere as we claim to be, perhaps we can actually hear some sort of evolved thinking we had not heard before?

I want to be on level ground with you as a person. I dont want what we believe to distract from that, but, I do want us to able to express what it is that we believe. Im assuming this is why you started this conversation in the first place? It certainly is why I responded to you anyway. I am always searching for wisdom, I dont know how many times I have to say that. I want to learn from you, im not interested in hearing why you dont believe, I want to know what you do believe. Im coming to every conversation eager to be anywhere close as surprised as I was when I heard what Jesus had. Hit me with some truth and some genuineness. For example. I found it true that love is inspired by faith and visa versa. This is not true just cause Jesus seems to teach that, it is true because it makes perfect sense to me. Amongst other things he taught.

Im not going to get into the spiritual revelations i found as true, as I have already attempted to explain that part, and it seems not many really care about that anyway. I am giving nothing but truth that is found through faith. If you accept what is true by evidence, why dont you try to accept what is true by what is true to you as well? You dont always need evidence to find truth. Ahh, but there is another line between you and I right?

"We didn't start the fire"

RackJR · March 7, 2010

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I dont get my definition of love from the dictionary. In fact, many things can be understood without having a dictionary. You may disagree.
But I asked this question before...

i wasn't trying to define love. it was a definition of free thinking. since i had said that we perhaps had a different definition, and the one i posted closely resembled what i would have given mine as, i thought it might help to post it. i also asked for yours. but it wasn't about love right then.

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In fact, many things can be understood without having a dictionary.

totally agree. but since we didn't seem to agree on what constitutes a free thinker, establishing a platform seemed in order. i tried to. you haven't yet.

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"Are the educated considered to be more free in thought than children in wonder"

i really didn't answer, if you're asking the question again. my answer is, i don't know. again, i think it would depend on your definition of free thought. i would agree that children are typically more free in their thinking about religion, because they have not yet been indoctrinated into it. but neither of us are children. however, you have stated several times that uneducated does not mean unintelligent. agreed, but i would add that typically education and intelligence are closely correlated. i have to ask, since i can't remember a single time of questioning your intelligence, is this a defensive position you typically assume? i'm gonna guess you've encountered that accusation in the past (uneducated = unintelligent) so you're preemptively stating the contrary here. fair enough. but, i get it, and i'm not claiming otherwise.

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and stop saying I called you limited. As far as what you say, I call a spade a spade.

i'm not getting my panties in a twist, don't worry. the point i'm trying to make, apparently i'm not making it very well, is that we disagree, and making either position more contentious is probably counterproductive. if you can even say there is a productive way to go about this. i haven't seen you quote any of my posts as belittling to you personally, and i don't recall having done it. i have argued points without taking shots at you, whether i felt i could take a shot or not, because calling you names isn't getting anywhere, and i left the playground behind a long time ago. in this case, we were talking about whether the perpetrators of the inquisition were following the words of jesus. you claimed that they were not. i replied that it was simply your claim, and expressed my certitude that the perpetrators undoubtedly claimed that they absolutely were following the spirit and letter of the bible. you called my position naive. i could argue that it's equally naive to think that they weren't following the words of jesus, since the bible talks clearly about atrocities such as the inquisition, and things much worse. but naive or not, i think you are capable of arguing your position without the labels. if you choose to keep doing it, you might see me pointing it out. if it's that important for you to label me, don't be bothered if i find a funny way to poke at you for labeling me.

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I may respond to the rest, but if you dont mind my saying so, your not keeping me out of this.

is this actually what you think my goal is in talking to you? i'm not trying to keep you out of anything. the only reason i posted to you in the first place is because your posts seem to reflect your willingness to talk openly about religion. i love talking about religion. i found long ago, however, that despite most people's stated willingness to discuss it, they are anything but. as soon as questions surface that they don't have answers to, i get shouted at that i'm going to hell and the conversation ends.

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full of the truth found in Christ, but, it seems no matter how I try to present myself, I will always be judged by the ones who claim I am judging them.

i don't feel like i'm judging you. i think that any religious person has some questions they'll have to answer when they engage in any conversation with the non believer. i think many of your answers have been inconsistent, reflecting the difficulty of balancing the incredible inconsistency of the bible. i know very well the questions we ask are not easy to answer. they are the questions which we all asked ourselves, and realized the answers were ridiculous, requiring a mental flexibility that i for one rejected. the simplicity of the other option for me (scientific inquiry) made so much logical sense by comparison, that the decision was very easy. to continue to ask questions is not judging.

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Sometimes people try to trap me, or trick me, or make it sound as if I am saying something that im not.

i don't know exactly how i would trick you, and typically i try to quote only very small sections of what you say so that it's easier to grasp what you're getting at when i reply. if it's contradictory, i'll probably be pointing that out. i'm not here for tricks.

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I want to learn from you, im not interested in hearing why you dont believe, I want to know what you do believe.

pick a topic. i hope at this point it's clear that i don't believe in god, any god. yours, zeus, poseidon, Ra, Osiris, Krishna, any of them. they are all the same to me. if i find someone who does believe in one of these gods, and if i feel they can handle it, i'll ask questions. honestly, most of the time people can't handle it. either they will get angry, or their answers will become so vague as to be pointless. i do believe in the power of scientific inquiry. i think it has elegance in it's simplicity, and i feel that i share in it's thirst to know more. there are very few things i will believe without evidence. i believe that even feelings of love are usually accompanied by "evidence", if you can call it that. you meet someone, you like them, they seem to like you, you develop trust, you get to know them, and then your feelings may develop into more. very rarely, if ever, do i think love simply strikes people. i would call that lust, which then may be replaced by love at some later time.

we've spent most of the time talking about what you believe, and i guess i've been questioning how you can believe that, given these questions and inconsistencies. sometimes you've answered, honestly most of the time not very specifically. usually your answers are about the love contained in the gospel, how it spoke to you personally, and how the strength of the relationship you've made with god has changed your outlook on the world. not too often do i feel like you've actually addresses any one of the many points brought up. you have the same accusation of me (not answering questions), and i'm honestly not positive what you've asked me that hasn't been rhetorical in my eyes. since you said that i give you reasons i don't believe instead of saying what i do believe it, my reply is simply that what i do believe in doesn't require the same mental gymnastics, and therefore doesn't usually engender the same barrage of questions. if you have questions about scientific inquiry, evolution, or the natural world, feel free to ask. i won't claim to be an authority on any of them, but i'll try to answer them as well as i can. my suspicion is that you're not going to ask those kinds of questions, because you already feel you have the answers, and any answers i give that don't fit in will require more mental gymnastics to either dismiss them or "filter" them into your paradigm. and getting back to your quote, i don't think i've been giving you the reasons that i don't believe what you believe. at 13, i decided none of it made any sense to me, and my blossoming interest in the physical world seemed at odds with most of the bible teachings i had been listening to. i've been asking questions related to my inability to understand how a rational, thinking person might believe in things that seem blatantly untrue to me. all of these questions came well after my rejection of religion in general, and christianity specifically. in other words, i didn't believe, long before these questions ever occurred to me. it's just that the more i learn about the bible, the more i feel reinforced that my 13 year old decision was perfect for me. it allowed me to look at any information, scientific, religious, philosophical, whatever, without needing it to fit into any paradigm, and therefore i think i could look at it objectively.

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Im not going to get into the spiritual revelations i found as true, as I have already attempted to explain that part, and it seems not many really care about that anyway.

it's not that i don't care, i can't speak for anyone else. i have read all of your posts in their entirety. i will say that it seems that you talk about those revelations, regardless of how specific the original question was. me asking you about homosexuality being a sin is a great example. you did finally answer part of the question, but i've asked for a citation from you, similar to the one posted (from leviticus) where the words of jesus negate the law that leviticus invokes, and the topic just goes away. i've asked who's words they were, and you told me if it was slippery for me, to seek greater knowledge. so, you have answered some things when pressed. if the only thing you wish to discuss about religion is the revelation you've had, and the gospels, and avoid any other topics as distasteful, buddy i'm probably gonna get bored. just being honest. like i said before. if you want to preach the simple message of "love others", i'll be all for it. if the message stops there, you would never, ever hear a word of argument from me, and i would go to great lengths to defend your right to preach it. but your faith is based in the bible, and in the bible, it doesn't end there. inconsistencies. atrocities. myth. legend. directions for genocide. instructions for slavery. permission to keep captured virgins. it just goes on and on, and most of it has nothing at all to do with love, or goodness, or godliness. asking about those inconsistencies interests me. seems to interest a lot of people. you got into this freely, and were talking about homosexuality by your 2nd post, long before i waded in. you are equally free to stop talking to me, and that will be ok. but i promise you that if you keep questioning science, or specifically evolution (since it's been in this thread already) there won't be a point where i don't want to talk to you anymore, or evade your questions by talking about the gospel of subatomic particles when my answers run out. you can't violate my belief system, because it isn't a belief system. it's a body of knowledge, free for anyone to examine. if you're actually interested, ask away.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

zagijimzoo · March 9, 2010

Quotes from Quantum Physic applied to Mind Power:

There are unending possibilities to what is real and what is conscious!

There literally are different worlds in which we live. Macroscopic world that we see. Is the world of ourselves. It’s a world of our atoms. A world of our nuclei. These are each totally different worlds. They have their own language. Their own mathamatics. They’re not just smaller. Each is totally different. But their complementary. Because I am my atoms. But I’m also my selves. I’m most of my macroscopic physiology. Its all true. There just different levels of truth. The deepest level of truth uncovered by science and by philosophy is the fundamental truth of unity. At the deepest sub nuclear level of our reality, you and I are literally one.

When I was younger I had lots of ideas about what God was. And now I realize that I’m not conscious enough to truly understand what that concept means.

That I am one with the great being that made me and that brought me here and that formed the galaxies and the universe etc. How did that get taking out of religion? It was not hard. Most of the problems with religion and various philosophy movements down thru the centuries have produced; have been hers because that’s where they started. That God is a distinct separate being from us to whom I must offer worship, who I must cultivate, humor, please, and hope to obtain a reward from at the very end of my life. That is not what God is. That is a blasphemy.

God is such a board thing. Most of the parts which are associated with organized religion is something I recoil at. Something that I think has done a lot of harm to this world. Done harm to women, done harm to oppressed peoples, done harm to the world trade center.

And yet at the same point we have the epitome of a great science. The closest science has ever come to explaining Jesus’s trepidation that the muster seed was larger then the kingdom of heaven. And the only science that can fit into that analogy is quantum physics. Now we have great technology. From anti gravty magnets and magnetic fields of zero point energy. We have all that and we still have this ugly, superstitious, backwater concept of God.

People fall into line very readily when their threatened by these cosmic sentences of everlasting punishment. But this is not how God is. And one should start questioning the traditional images and caricatures of God. People feel you’re an agnostic, an atheist, or a subverter of the social order.

God must be greater then the greatest of human weakeness. And indeed the greatness of human skill. That God must even transcend our most remarkable. To emulate nature in its absolute splender. How can any man or women sin against such a greatness of mine. How can any one little carbon unit, on earth, in the back waters, indeed the Milky Way, the boondocks, betray God all mighty. That is impossible. The height of arrogance is the height of control of those who create God
in their own image.

It’s the only planet in the Milky Way that has habitation that is steeped in enormous subjugation of religion. You know why this is? Is because people have setup right and wrong. If I do this than I’m going to get punished by God. And if I do the other thing I’m going to get rewarded. This is a really poor description that tries to map out a path in life for us to follow. But with deplorable results. Because there really is no such thing as good or bad. We’re judging things far too superficial that way. Does that mean you’re in favor of sin and licentious and that of depravity…no. It simple means that you need to improve your expression and understanding of what you’re dealing with here. There are things that I do that I know will evolve me. There are other things that will not evolve me. But it’s not good or bad. There’s no God waiting to punish you because you did one or the other.

There is no God condemning people. Everyone is Gods.

At the same time God is a sort of place holder name for those parts of our experience of the world which are some how transcendent, some how sublime.

I have no idea what God is. Yet I have an experience that God is. There is something very real about this presence called God. Although I have no idea how to define God. To see God as a person or as a thing. I can’t seem to do it. Its kind of like asking a human being to explain what God is, is similar to asking a fish to explain the water in which the fish swims.

God is the superposition of all the spirit from all things

Knowing that there is this inner conectiveness of the universe, that we are all interconnected, and that we are connected to the universe at its fundamental level, is I think as good as an explanation for spirituality as there is.

It is my belief that our purpose here is to develop our gifts of intentionality.
And learn how to be effective creators.

We are here to be creators. We are here to infiltrate space with ideas and imagines of thought. We are here to make something of this life.

We are here to acknowledge the quantum self, to acknowledge the place where we really have choice, to acknowledge mind. When that shift of perspective takes place, we say that someone has been enlightened.

Quantum mechanics allows for the intangible phenomena of freedom to be woven into human nature.

philh · March 9, 2010

Quote
Quotes from Quantum Physic applied to Mind Power:

There are unending possibilities to what is real and what is conscious!

There literally are different worlds in which we live. Macroscopic world that we see. Is the world of ourselves. It’s a world of our atoms. A world of our nuclei. These are each totally different worlds. They have their own language. Their own mathamatics. They’re not just smaller. Each is totally different. But their complementary. Because I am my atoms. But I’m also my selves. I’m most of my macroscopic physiology. Its all true. There just different levels of truth. The deepest level of truth uncovered by science and by philosophy is the fundamental truth of unity. At the deepest sub nuclear level of our reality, you and I are literally one.

When I was younger I had lots of ideas about what God was. And now I realize that I’m not conscious enough to truly understand what that concept means.

That I am one with the great being that made me and that brought me here and that formed the galaxies and the universe etc. How did that get taking out of religion? It was not hard. Most of the problems with religion and various philosophy movements down thru the centuries have produced; have been hers because that’s where they started. That God is a distinct separate being from us to whom I must offer worship, who I must cultivate, humor, please, and hope to obtain a reward from at the very end of my life. That is not what God is. That is a blasphemy.

God is such a board thing. Most of the parts which are associated with organized religion is something I recoil at. Something that I think has done a lot of harm to this world. Done harm to women, done harm to oppressed peoples, done harm to the world trade center.

And yet at the same point we have the epitome of a great science. The closest science has ever come to explaining Jesus’s trepidation that the muster seed was larger then the kingdom of heaven. And the only science that can fit into that analogy is quantum physics. Now we have great technology. From anti gravty magnets and magnetic fields of zero point energy. We have all that and we still have this ugly, superstitious, backwater concept of God.

People fall into line very readily when their threatened by these cosmic sentences of everlasting punishment. But this is not how God is. And one should start questioning the traditional images and caricatures of God. People feel you’re an agnostic, an atheist, or a subverter of the social order.

God must be greater then the greatest of human weakeness. And indeed the greatness of human skill. That God must even transcend our most remarkable. To emulate nature in its absolute splender. How can any man or women sin against such a greatness of mine. How can any one little carbon unit, on earth, in the back waters, indeed the Milky Way, the boondocks, betray God all mighty. That is impossible. The height of arrogance is the height of control of those who create God
in their own image.

It’s the only planet in the Milky Way that has habitation that is steeped in enormous subjugation of religion. You know why this is? Is because people have setup right and wrong. If I do this than I’m going to get punished by God. And if I do the other thing I’m going to get rewarded. This is a really poor description that tries to map out a path in life for us to follow. But with deplorable results. Because there really is no such thing as good or bad. We’re judging things far too superficial that way. Does that mean you’re in favor of sin and licentious and that of depravity…no. It simple means that you need to improve your expression and understanding of what you’re dealing with here. There are things that I do that I know will evolve me. There are other things that will not evolve me. But it’s not good or bad. There’s no God waiting to punish you because you did one or the other.

There is no God condemning people. Everyone is Gods.

At the same time God is a sort of place holder name for those parts of our experience of the world which are some how transcendent, some how sublime.

I have no idea what God is. Yet I have an experience that God is. There is something very real about this presence called God. Although I have no idea how to define God. To see God as a person or as a thing. I can’t seem to do it. Its kind of like asking a human being to explain what God is, is similar to asking a fish to explain the water in which the fish swims.

God is the superposition of all the spirit from all things

Knowing that there is this inner conectiveness of the universe, that we are all interconnected, and that we are connected to the universe at its fundamental level, is I think as good as an explanation for spirituality as there is.

It is my belief that our purpose here is to develop our gifts of intentionality.
And learn how to be effective creators.

We are here to be creators. We are here to infiltrate space with ideas and imagines of thought. We are here to make something of this life.

We are here to acknowledge the quantum self, to acknowledge the place where we really have choice, to acknowledge mind. When that shift of perspective takes place, we say that someone has been enlightened.

Quantum mechanics allows for the intangible phenomena of freedom to be woven into human nature.

Sound like your book is simply parroting the utter nonsense foun in "the secret". Quantum mechanics does not imply one can create one own reality. Your intentions have no bearing on the universe.

dmcoco84 · March 22, 2010

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Others may disagree.

I would have to disagree. Yes, you can make arguments predating Christianity... but come on. Just listen to Christmas Music... decorating and lighting the Christmas tree, and what always goes on top...?

An Angel or a Star. Angels... secular... no. The Star of Bethlehem? Other faiths don’t look at a decorated tree in the month of December as anything other than a Christmas symbol... referring to and celebrating the birth of their savior.

Of your non-Christian friends who get trees... what are they? What do they believe? Do they have kids? Are they only doing Christmas as a “holiday thing” and not a “religion thing”, everything but the Jesus part... so the children don’t feel left out? If no kids... do they decorate it too? Why bother?

Kinda weird...

Plus... Festivus is so much better... ya get a pole!

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I don't deny that there MIGHT be one. I certainly don't mind hearing others ideas about one. I just don't think the government should PAY for people to spread those ideas, as we have no way to know whose ideas are correct.

You are going to like what the founders said about the, “Religion of America.”

Equally with your moral code... “I try to treat others as they want to be treated.” You are referring to the Golden Rule, or similar, right?

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My Catholic school taught me about Islam and Judaism and Hinduism and Buddhism without teaching me to believe that those religions were the truth.

Yeaaaa, cause they were teaching you that those religions were BS... they were teaching you Jesus was the truth, teaching the bible, so then those other religions would have to be... Wrong.
Well... besides Judaism, for obvious reasons.

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As for your comment about the religions of the founders, last I checked, most of them were Deist, and Thomas Jefferson in particular was pretty specific about the "wall of separation between church and state."

No... I never said, the religions OF the founders. I spoke of what the founder’s referred to as the, “Religion of America.” Ugh... the wall... yeah... we’ll get to that.

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When was your last Constitutional Law class?

Does it matter? Not when I have followed in the steps of Abraham Lincoln... diligence in self-study. Lincoln had very little formal education, but he knew how to read and write... it was all he needed. He taught himself, and became a lawyer. Taught himself law as well...

Washington... Franklin... even Einstein... all self-study.

And today, we have very extensive public libraries... a wonderful use of the public money. I’m a big believer in the public library system... my whole family is!

Shame our youth isn’t... and they aren't learning true history is public school... I sure didn't.

dmcoco84 · March 22, 2010

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209 - RonD:
None of these inventions lead to the path of or guarantee eternal life in Christ.

219 - Lasz:
So when you get sick why do you go to the doctor and try to extend your life with human inventions? Why religious people don't accept their illness as God's will and let themselves die? They have eternal life waiting for them anyway right?

Believing in God... having faith, having religious beliefs, doesn’t prevent sickness. Nor does it prevent bad things from happenings. Nor are those things, “God’s will being imposed.” Praying... divine intervention... depends on your beliefs... that’s apart of faith.

Eternal life... deals entirely with the afterlife. The afterlife in Christianity is determined by how you live your life here on Earth. That has nothing to do with modern medicine, or “human inventions” that extend and better the quality of that life... Ron, those things aren’t supposed to “lead you to the path of Christ” or deter you ...both comments make absolutely no sense.

And believing in God doesn’t mean that you can’t believe in science. Personally... I don’t see how you can have one, without the other.

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The Bible is written by humans.

Agreed... written by man, inspired by God... and changed repeatedly with changes in rulers... especially in England, the very place our founders fled from.

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223 - RonD:
All my life I have seen a constant wearing away of our Christian heritage. America is not growing stronger; we are getting weaker.

236 - billvon:
America's strength is based in large part on the principles of our Constitution, one of which is that the government shall not get involved in religion. Maintaining that separation makes us stronger; ignoring the Constitution to indulge in our own personal beliefs makes us weaker.

America is growing weaker not because of a wearing away of Christianity... we are not a Christian nation... however, it is because of a wearing away from, God... and because of a lack of knowledge about our nations history, and our Constitution.

You are correct... government should not be involved with religion.

But without God... the Constitution, the Bill of Rights… they cannot exist.

There is a big difference between Religion... and God.

You can have God, without religion. But you can’t have freedom, without God.

jakee · March 22, 2010

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But without God... the Constitution, the Bill of Rights… they cannot exist.

Why not?

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You can have God, without religion. But you can’t have freedom, without God.

Why not?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

billvon · March 22, 2010

>And believing in God doesn’t mean that you can’t believe in science.

I definitely agree there.

>Personally... I don’t see how you can have one, without the other.

Pretty easy, actually. We had religion for a long time without much science; we have many atheists who are excellent scientists. That can work because the two fields do not have much overlap (despite what the Texas school board believes.)

>But without God... the Constitution, the Bill of Rights… they cannot exist.

Sure they can. You don't need God to have morality. Indeed, it can be argued that many religions have created their own version of God from their desire to _have_ a fixed morality rooted in something other than "this feels right to me."

>You can have God, without religion. But you can’t have freedom, without God.

Again, sure you can. The concepts are not all that related. Most slaveowners in the US believed in God; today most atheists in the US live in freedom.

quade · March 22, 2010

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And believing in God doesn’t mean that you can’t believe in science.

However, if you truly believe in science almost everything you find in the Bible simply doesn't make sense.

For instance, science pretty much disagrees with everything in the book of Genesis.

Logically, if most of what a belief in God is based on doesn't make sense and there is no "proof" of God, then it seems a bit silly to believe in him.

Any scientist that says science and God (as is commonly thought of; an all powerful being that created the universe) can co-exist is hedging their bets at best or simply being disingenuous as to not be attacked by the zealots.

I would say I'm open to some form of "God" but certainly not as described in the Bible. What I would require though is some form of proof in order to believe in him.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

rynodigsmusic · March 22, 2010

You might need a few beers, a printer, and some time for this one.

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i can't believe you're actually defending that period as a good thing because it served a higher purpose.

Im not defending it, I am accepting the higher order of nature, the same nature we ourselves are a part of, not separate of. What good is it for me to blame anything I have no control over? What good is blame if not to reveal the truth to the one who cant see it, because they are full of blame? Understanding comes when someone recognizes and realizes their own fault. You may say you have no fault in this regard, but your fault is your blame in this case, as you have no right to blame anything, but still think you do.

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for a group that you claim is all about love, christianity has had at least it's share of brutality.

God is not all about love. He is also very powerful, and he has all the perception of truth. Justice is not something that belongs to us, we think it is, and that alone is one of our major problems. Mercy will only be shown to the merciful. The primary purpose of the truth is to discern what is false between what is true. Just because someone wears a cross and claims the name of Christ, does not mean he is born again in the spirit. Jesus came to testify that what the world does is evil. He exposed the “righteous” not as people of God, but as sons of the deciever, using much of the same reasoning you are ironically enough.

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do you really think that those people who found themselves on the torture table would have been interested in what you're getting at here?

Of course not. But many in this world seem to “accept” collateral damage in any war, why would a spiritual war (desire for change) be any different? Im not saying they are collateral damage, just making a point that when we go to war, we will accept collateral damage for our “greater cause” of the idea of democracy. Until we as humans see that is not acceptable, that war is not acceptable, we dont have the right to blame God. Do we? This “war” is not the type you think it is, that is, a war with religion vs religion, this is a war between what is pure and what is false in the heart of man. Its time to start believing in the powers of good and evil.

God has proven that the change must come from within the heart of his creation. It must come through a transformation of all minds. I know you’re probably going to be fired up about the “collateral” thing, but check yourself before you do that. There are many dying by the collateral damage we are willing to accept to protect ourselves from the threat of terrorism. This discussion alone (terrorism/threat/war/politics/democracy/freedom) is enough to completely take our minds off the truth. War is still war, whether it is for a “good” purpose, or not. I would think we would be smarter than this by now... of course you already know the answer to that one.

Jesus revealed not one of us is good, that there is only one who is good, and he is in Heaven. Anyone who thinks he is good, is sadly mistaken. The only thing that makes us good is Gods grace. I hate to reveal this to you, but you are also not good. When it comes to the righteousness of God, no one is good. This is a big piece of the message that many miss. All man is evil when compared to God. I would love to shout this at the rooftops here in Islam land, but, I would surely be confronted with the decieved and possibly killed. Jesus says be shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves. Im not just going to jump off a cliff without a chute right? When Islam hears the truth, it will be a magnificent day for the earth, as they are full of zeal. Zeal for grace is a good thing, and benefits everyone universally. Instead of trying to push our ideas on everyone else (America is not the only people doing this), we need to start to at least try and imagine heaven on earth. But, for that, we will always need God. God is where the power is. Man cannot govern himself like God can (Im sure many will hate this). The very nature of that trial is doomed to fail and has for as long as we have been around. Sure, some ideas work for awhile, but as soon as power, money, and glory come into the mix, everything goes to shit. Who holds the rich man accountable for anything? Yet it is these rich men who are corrupting the world and justifying that corrouption however they seem fit. The problem is not rich men, the problem is corrupt rich men who are not held accountable in their own hearts and minds. And I have seen more times than not, that it is the rich man who is more susceptible to corruption than the poor man. Its just an observation, but money clearly does do something to people.

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". or they're burned alive. or (the one's who receive the lords mercy) are garroted, then burned. do you really think they would give a shit about your idea of a greater good?

That is FAR from the Lords mercy. Islam teaches the same process you described. Sura 5 I believe somewhere... it says something like... If an infadel you conquer will not submit to Islam, cut off his hands and feet, ect... if he accepts Islam and commits to regular prayer, fasting, giving to the poor ect... then be merciful because Allah is merciful. That is NOT an example of Gods mercy... because it seems to assume that the Muslim doing the killing does not require the same mercy of God. Jesus has already exposed these hypocrites. That they are just as evil as “the infidel”. In fact, they are the infidel. Ironic isnt it? Yet the deception is so great they will kill in this irony. There is a very interesting scripture in Genesis that explains Islam would be a “wild donkey of a man, and his hand will be against all his brothers, and he will live in hostility towards them”. This is Genesis man.

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how can you be seriously defending the god that you claim made this happen for the greater good?

Your really not getting it. God does not need defending, he can defend himself just fine.

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all at the hands of people who, just like you, claim to have knowledge about this book that the rest of us don't have.

This is judgement whether you see it or not, Im searching for a judge free heart, and for me, I find, I still judge. Its part of our nature. It definitely feels like im trying, but call it my pacifism if you have to, or cowardes even, but in my mind, loving one another is a good thing that shouldnt require evil strong enough to decieve us into killing one another, but, instead of judging ourselves and submitting at least to the possibility that we cant know everything, it is our pride and separation from God that is keeping us from benefiting much more in life. Unification at the heart level... to where we at least all accept that loving one another is a good thing that is worth treating as a universal truth. Even if I knew everything, if I didnt have love, how much really could I have learned? Grace is the way of the future of life in man, or whatever “vessel” mans body becomes. I dont think life, with all of its miraculous designs and abilities (we’re a pretty intelligent design whether you believe in God or not) is just going to stop here, and vanish into never existing again. It just doesnt make sense to me that life can just die. We dont have any concept of eternity, and we are just going to assume that life just came into being from nothing, and not only that, after it “dies” or vanishes, it will never be able to come into being from nothing again? Not only that, if you or anyone else wants to assume, or believe in without evidence (I guess we cant call that faith?) that this life is all there is, then go ahead, it is only your innocence and your life you cheat out of existence. Im sorry, im getting off track, thats really not important, but, if for some reason anyone wanted just one rational thought of why I at least stayed open to the possibility of a creator, now you have one. But back to what is important.

They are not like me at all. They are not like Jesus, who is the salvation of God, not the judgement of man, thats when he will judge a mans heart by his own heart, with the truth. This is more than a conscience thing, because mans conscience is very powerful, and we often underestimate it, but there certainly is a level of “understanding” that a man comes to, that become his principles, thoughts, morals, convictions, but also his peace, his love, his life energy in you want to call it that. But for me, God is my conscience now, but all that means is that I am trying to follow Jesus, it doesnt mean I am sin free, righteous by effort, or a general know-it-all , it just means im trying to live the gospel, because I know it is the desire of my heart. But you want to submit mans consciences (that many dont even believe exists) to more “evolved” theoretical ideas that only take them further away from the truth, that mans destiny is a humble creation.

But none of this is up to us, this is just the truth, this was always meant to be, this is the progression of life so far in the universe. At least what we know about life that is anyway. I believe it is spirit, and that it is wisdom, and that pure wisdom is true and always good. Thats curious to me. Life moves with some pretty powerful motions, I really would like to have as much as I can, and still remain humble and grateful, while Im here and aware of it. Heres where I choose that humbleness is a better choice than the pride and ego of human intelligence. Heres where I choose Jesus. Its amazing that we boast about our super intelligence, and destroy our very life source, and not to mention each other?? How smart can we be if we have the weapons to literally destroy one another, and the will as well? Its actually pretty sad that we pat ourselves on the back for our creations and “discoveries” (how can you discover whats always been?) and completely turn a blind eye to the fact that we are going to destroy ourselves, all because of our many prides. Vanity, conceit, ego, toughness, hardness, stubborness, rebellion, denial, and a false sense of strength and control.... all under a God of money, power, and deception because we cant accept the truth that Christ brought.. so sad..

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i have such a hard time believing that you can't see basis for the claim that you will discard any evidence that doesn't fit into your belief system.

Oh, I can see plenty of basis for that claim in your eyes, because your eyes are blinded to the truth, just like Jesus says, “So that the blind can see and those who see will become blind” (You must be blind before you can see, as that is the power behind revelation) However, I still WILL NOT discard evidence that is true. If I claim I am all about truth, then I had better live by truth right? It is only my own conscience that I would be fooling. I have had plenty against God in my quest for truth. I have a chronic medical condition (10 years now) that I found endless quarrels with God because of. Not only that, there were times I sincerely doubted, never really left, but doubted his very existence. Without going into to more “nonsense” (what many call it anyway), Ill just ask you to believe that I have been more mad at God than anyone or anything else. It is in these moments, that we are speaking truth more than we know, and God loves a pure heart. It is often in this anger that we finally realize, that we dont have the right to be angry, and, we see that we have taken our eyes off of the blessings that we do have. Gratitude is a revelation that often comes through this anger and bitterness. I am far more intrigued by those who feel they have the right to blame God for his plan, but not thank him when his plan reveals blessing after blessing after blessing. This is a testimony to the stubborness and pride of man more so than an argument for the case of “God does not exist”. You cant even find gratitude without having something to give thanks to. We often give thanks for being alive, for life in general, for good things ect.. but rarely do we give thanks for the “other” circumstances... why not? Good does not exist separate of evil, but in the same flow... it is the truth that keeps the balance, and truth is love. So, the truth of good and evil is held in the power of love, which has the ability and desire to love both good and evil.

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so that it can fit into your truth that god is always good, always correct, made all this happen, and this is all his plan for a better world.

Well Im quite sure he is good, quite sure he has a great plan for his life ect... but what you dont get is that he is also God. He is the very essence of destruction and it is wise to fear him. Have we not seen this side in nature? Nevertheless, it is clear that because you have not humbled yourself before him, he has not revealed himself to you. So always good, but always God. God is justice, and it is “his to repay”. It is falseness he is getting rid of, not sinful man. If one claims to be without sin, he is not a man of truth, no matter how many words he uses to express himself. Think about it, if we are all under grace, sin would not even exist in our perception.

God carries the balance of all things, good and evil. We have the knowledge of good and evil, but we did not have the truth until Christ.

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the dark ages

Well that says it all. The dark ages. Most accept that the end times are only times and signs of the “end”. They dont always see that those times had been brewing since the birth of Christ, yes, but also since the very beginning of all things made. He wasnt teaching that the end is coming only because he did, but that the end was always coming, it was inevitable ever since the beginning. The “atrocities”, are clearly examples of what Christ warned about when he taught the end of the world as we knew it. He said, “Many will kill you and claim they are offering a service to God”. How many have been killed, after Christ, in the name of God again? Still you deny he spoke the truth? Not only that, if this is the warning he gave, and still others kill “in the name of God” (Crusades), how could they be following him?

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decried the use of torture, or denounced the confiscation of property, maybe you'd have some ground to stand on. they weren't.

A very bold statement. MLK preached the same thing. Its called indifference, and more than Christians are subject to it. However, I wouldnt assume that the spirit of Jesus was not still working even during this time you claim he wasnt. As I said, a bold statement. And you are showing me more and more that your really not listening to what we are telling you about the separation of the spirit of Christ and the way of religion. If you continue to express how much you dont get that, im going to assume you havent even read a Gospel. This is a very fundamental lesson of the Gospel.

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Interesting that when someone is rescued alive from the rubble of an earthquake the family thanks god for a miracle, but when hundreds, thousands or more are killed by an earthquake, its just part of god's greater purpose. (Kallend)

Its also very interesting that people blame God for misfortune but do not give thanks to him for the many blessings in their life as well. Jesus addresses your inquiry here, when someone says, “wait, let me go and bury my father, then I will follow you”... Jesus replys, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead”. When someone dies, its best to move on, or you will die with them (I know I dont want my family to die with me). While its not always easy, it is the truth, we must move on. We have to learn how to give thanks in all circumstances, even in death, almost especially in death, this is a gift of peace.

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how about, as a group, you start volunteering. instead of shooting abortion doctors, you offer yourself as a sacrifice. instead of killing gay college students, zealot christians will find you, standing in their stead. if they must kill, let them take the name at the top of the list of volunteers, and kill them. you will die for your purpose. your group of christians can kill each other, instead of enforcing your idea of law on the rest of us, who don't share your sense of purpose. if you think there's purpose to all of it, let your death speak for your conviction. save the lives of others. make a stand, to prove that christianity is not about harming those who don't believe. show the world that the old testament is the old way, and a new way, and purpose, is here.

I am convicted through your conviction. I like to think I am trying, but how much “control” do I have? You are telling me to do what Jesus did. How can you do that? I would never ask anyone to do that. If that is something they long to do, that is between them and God. As it is, my love for you and the entire world for that matter is extremely weak. Without God I am nothing, it is his will that I submit to, I will just leave it at that. I dont think there is a Christian alive who is not convicted by your conviction here. Want to run out and save the world like Jesus did huh? Then why did Jesus even come? No one could save the world but God. No one else could do what he did. Many have been martyrd for a belief, but none had what Jesus had. Only the Holy Spirit could do what Jesus did, therefore, Jesus is the ONLY one who can give the spirit. The spirit “speaks exactly what it hears”. Jesus has already given the message that saves. If it is not heard through him, why would you expect anyone to hear it through me?

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you will die for your purpose

It is possible yes. But, its not my purpose, it is one I believe in. So a better statement is that “you will die for your faith”. Im not as interested in how I am going to die, or when, I am more interested in how I am going to live. Life to fullest means hope, love, and pure faith. Ever wonder what it would be like to have pure faith? No doubt at all, just pure faith? Knowing without doubt that life is eternal and you are a part of that. Im not living for life after death man, Im living for life. To me, that is something we may all find is worth dying for.

Not only that, and you may not understand this, but I died with Christ. Just as we died with Jesus, we share in his resurrection.... 23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;" Jesus is Hope, and hope is the power of God. Standing for a message that gives hope to the poor in spirit is something I am willing to stand for.

If other Christians find it is okay to kill others (gays, abortion docs, or whatever) what makes you think they will listen to me? They are already blinded, and their destruction will be their end because they claim they saw, but clearly did not see. They will follow that hypocrisy to the end, as their consciences could not produce the fruit of the spirit. Jesus speaks of these people...39 Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind." 40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?" 41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." Kind of hard to rid oneself of guilt they dont believe exist.

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that's simply what you are claiming now (authority in law, not spirit)

No. That is what Jesus claimed, the same Jesus you claim they followed. But it seems to me if you claim they were following the spirit of Christ, then you prove me wrong with the Gospel. Ive already proven they were not, but you still dont agree, so now, you prove me wrong. In fact, anyone here prove me wrong in this regard. Show me how they were following Jesus. You did read the sermon on the mount? Please show me anywhere in the NT where the apostles urge killing, torture, and rape in the name of God.

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i'm sorry, but your own line of reasoning is failing here. i don't think it's consistent of you to claim a purpose for the inquisition, carried out by the church, and claim these men were completely influenced by their own evil and deceptive agendas. either these atrocities are the work of god, or they're not

You didnt hear what I said. I said deceptive agendas. I believe the world is under a spirit of deception. It is the nature of evil man. We can entertain evil thoughts with/without knowing it, and claim it is in the “best interest” of God or man. This is going to go over your head im sure, but Jesus calls satan the father of lies. The deceiver. Why certain people continue to “entertain” evil thoughts, I dont know, I believe evil is real, and therefore, just like anything real, has purpose. Do you think I like it? I dont know, depends how deceived I allow myself to get. Some people carry out all sorts of evils in the name of good, do they not? Anyway, deception is something you probably wont understand, becasue, you, like many have a very hard time understanding that evil can take control of you and make you carry out its purpose whether you want to or not. The reason I say evil has purpose is because it is real, and because we are all evil, and it is ONLY in that knowledge that we can know grace.

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Jesus and god are the same. you say that when it fits your purpose. say it when it doesn't as well.

No they are not. Jesus is God, but not everyone knows him. Thats like saying Islam and Jesus are the same. Jesus must be recognized and revealed as God. No pretenders welcome in Christ. We all have to go through the same gate to see Jesus as God.

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the fact that the bible changes it's tune (somewhat) in the new testament doesn't mean you can discard the rest.

Yes it does. Still not hearing me? You are no longer under the law if you are under grace, similarly, you are no longer under grace if you are under the law. Again, fundamental Christianity, but there are MANY Christians who dont fully understand this as well. Its best those people dont teach, but many of them do anyway. The only thing worth teaching is that Jesus is the one who “baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire”. Its important people get his spirit and not just his words. Ask and you will receive, knock and the door will be opened. “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near”. When you’ve prayed a prayer of repentance, accepted the mercy in the blood of Jesus, and left everything in Gods hands, there is nothing left for you to do, the promise completely takes over from there. This is what is meant by “obeying the message”.

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if you're going to claim that jesus fulfilled the law with his sacrifice, please also tell me the chapter and verse where he negated the previous laws in the same plain language he used to invoke them.

(john 19:30).When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins. Matthew 2:22

There is a difference between abolishing and fulfilling. In the law was a promise that “as it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end”. We are not progressing to the end, but to the beginning. Again, complete change of perception.

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and replace it with strong irrational belief in an imaginary superpower residing in the sky and a 2000 year old book that makes little, if any, sense.

God is spirit. He doesnt live in the sky. Listen to the words of Bob Marley, “Most people think, great God will come from the sky. Take away everything and make everybody feel high, but if you know what life is worth, you would look for yours on earth, and now you see the light, stand up for your right” An imaginary superpower residing in the sky? Might define some skygods in skydiving, but not God. Forgive me, but God has hidden himself from your eyes because of your pride. How can a man come to God with pride? What does God have to prove to any man? “God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble”

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since neither of us is in any danger of converting.

- Perhaps not. However, I for one am constantly listening for wisdom. You have a ton, but you may not see what I see. I cant help that, nor would I if I could. You, just like me, are on your own path, and either you are Gods or your not. Either you are light in the balance, or not. You sound like light, but you cant hear Jesus? This has always intrigued me.

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all of which you must label as part of god's purpose in order to keep your belief system intact.

You are way underestimating faith. Its not something I can just give up because Im pissed at the way God works sometimes. Its like hearing an “inconvenient truth”. Though it may be inconvenient, it is still the truth.

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seems like an awful lot of suffering was in his perfect plan, over an awful long period of time. seems like it just keeps happening. warring tribes in africa. genocide in boznia. seems to fit right into the biblical plan

Yes. We are in the end times. It is going to get much worse whether you want it to or not. Famines, Earthquakes, Wars, Brother betraying brother... all this happens as the hearts of man grow colder and as the new earth goes through its “birth pains”

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but it also seems disgustingly easy for every person in your position to say that there's a purpose to it all....

Ill reply to this soon.

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so, this is how the modern day religious person explains the crap the religious of the past did? how will the next generation of religious minded explain the zealots of today? i'm sure in exactly the same way. however, you were responding to me saying that the religious of the inquisitorial period were not there to help stem the tide, rather, they were leading the charge. you didn't offer anything meaningful as a rebuttal, you simply labeled them. not much of a response. more like a deflection.

I have given you a scripture in the New Testament by the apostle Paul. If you didnt understand, then how can I make you understand? You want me to explain to you what the zealots did and why? You know you cant have that answer. None of us can. But, they were NOT following Jesus. Take it or leave it. Ill continue to say the same thing. You should probably start studying deception and its power over men who think they are good, and who think they do things for a good purpose. In fact, many Americans need to think about this some more. Most everyone wants to be “good”, but deception is very, well, deceiving.

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i don't know what to say. i just don't get it

No, you deny, and you will be in denial until you accept that you have no control, that we are all just vessels for the purpose, change, and direction of life. We dont make life special, it is life that makes us special.

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That an omnipotent god would choose such a convoluted path to understanding. that so many could pervert the thing you claim is a simple message of love.

- Convoluted in your perception. But understanding is about the journey, not the destination (how many times you heard that now :) It is not for you to decide the path of wisdoms revelation of life. However, How so many miss the message of love in the Gospel is way the hell beyond me... I still dont understand how someone can claim to honor Christ, then kill, rape, or torture in the name of whatever. While there is more than enough grace to save these people (as we all can be one), it is not the way of Jesus. This is where America does a bad job representing Christ, but its no wonder that deception would have a foothold in America as well is it? War is not the way of the future, but the future must unfold as it is intended. The meek will inherit the earth after all these war mongers are finished killing one another.

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i think it will always be a contradiction in my eyes that a benevolent god will reveal himself through something like hell.

Because you havent tasted ANY of his goodness, or at least you havent given him thanks for any of it that is. ( this is an assumption)

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i guess if you admit that you no longer question the thing you believe in, i'm also gonna guess that no one outside your immediate belief system is gonna label you a free thinker. maybe we have a different definition of free thinking.

I told you that I still ask questions, but I do not question his will any longer. This is something I have done plenty of in the past when I was in ignorance. Freethinking? We certainly have a different definition of that, however, I can go from science, art, philosophy, ect... to the spirit, as my mind is not limited to evidence. Seems pretty damn free to me. To me a free thinker is sound in mind, and can search for truth ANYwhere.

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if there's some grace we're supposed to be attaining, it doesn't take much looking around to see that we're not any closer now than we were then.

And that is what you will be seeing when Christ is revealed again, and you may miss the greatest revelation of grace because you wont allow yourself to see. There are plenty of people who have the perception needed to see the change. Even with hell all around us, destruction at the door, life still has the only key to Heaven. Jesus likens heaven to perception... “So that they may be ever seeing, but never perceiving, ever hearing but never understanding, otherwise they would turn, and I would heal them”. Basically, if you saw, you would know, but thats not how this works. Faith first, then you see. The power is in faith not understanding. But I know, you dont like that. Something to keep in mind... Christianity started with one man, and the spirit has been moving and inspiring millions of people willing to give their lives for the message. Id say the change is manifesting quite rapidly to say the least.

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i currently live in the middle east. there's a skirmish over here, maybe you've heard about it. there's another around isreal. i could pretty easily go on and on. when you say "perfect", what exactly do you mean? that these things are perfect? that you don't accept that people are dying? that there hasn't been any absolutely huge death toll recently, so it's becoming perfect? how recent? what constitutes huge? like, the earthquake in haiti wasn't recent or huge enough? or chile?

- Man, you really need to open your eyes a little more. You need to at least read this... the signs dont care if we believe or not. I know you wont like the way that sounds.

5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. (Matthew 24:5-7)

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when you say "perfect", what exactly do you mean? that these things are perfect?

Nothing in this world is perfect, (or its all just perfect enough to sustain the movement of life) we can believe we know that. But there is such a thing as being perfected in love. Love is the revelation of the future, its not just a word or an emotion, but an ability that we clearly have access to. Its a revelation of the wisdom in life. Just cause we have access to it doesnt mean we know it and doesnt mean we can get others to know it as well. But yes, this revelation is growing, uniting, changing our perception of it by the day. Many are getting it despite the chaos and problems in the world. Many are suffering simply because they testify to its power in Christ. The same power you claim doesnt even exist.

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actually i don't think i'm alone in being quite worried that someone with an outlook similar to yours will release some sort of supervirus, and through their worldwide genocide, bring us all to judgement. or start a nuclear war. or do something along those lines that kills lots of people. if it's all god's plan, then it can't be anything except correct for them to carry that out.

You are not alone. Probably more like an EMP, but it wouldnt make any sense to blame Oppenheimer for that would it? Refer to the words of Jesus again, “A time is coming when people will kill you and think they are offering a service to God”. Please stop comparing my “outlook” to the hypocrites. I accept that I am a hypocrite, but its that very acceptance that helps me keep an eye on it in my heart and persevere in truth. We can blame it on Gods purpose (or not) all we want, its still going to happen... and not because Jesus said so, but because the world is changing and the earth seems to be changing right along with it. Do you think Jesus is going away? It is his earth, its always been his earth. This is the kingdom of grace, the place where life makes itself known to itself. You see Jesus as the problem, you need to see him as the cure for the twisted, hypocritical, falseness in the world that will be here until ALL peoples know Jesus as truth, until he comes again in the future. I know its deep man, but this is the Gospel, and the Gospel seemed to be what you were inquiring about. We can only hear what we are meant to hear anyway.

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hmm. i have never really thought about whether i could design a better world than god, probably because i don't believe he exists in the first place, let alone designed it.

Your missing a great revelation. The revelation of the creators heart manifesting in the design of nature. Ever scuba? You say you study the physical world, well I study nature. Not with books mind you, but I just observe it, take it all in, relate to it, and understand that I too am a part of it. There is something awesome going on in between the lines if you can just let go and bask in the glory of it all. Now you will say that you sincerely enjoy nature as well, and I wont doubt that one bit. But seeing nature for nature and seeing God in every detail are two very different perceptions. This is not at all boasting, but I have seen both. Gods is much better, and I will testify to that with all my heart because it is the truth to me.

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i do think the world would be better off without god

Because you dont know him you say this. If you saw you would know, but thats not faith. The blood of Jesus spells it all out, and I am trying to relay this message as best I can, the way to grace is by faith. You cant just believe in it, that does no good, you’ve got to be birthed into it and able to grow with it. That takes a seed (life), food, water, and light, and those are spiritually discerned, you cant find them without faith. You cant even be taught in the lessons of Christ without faith. You can listen, but you cant hear. You can see but you cant perceive. You need faith to grow in God. If that sounds too coincidental, your still not hearing. Dont get me wrong, your listening, but your not hearing. You need the spirit to discern the spirit. One has to ask with as much sincerity and faith as can be mustered.

If only he would reveal himself to you, then you’d know just what I am saying right now. Thats one of the incredible things about the Gospel, it is a universal language who’s very design is to unite the earth.

Im not trying to go to confession everyday and pray for forgiveness “after a sin”. Thats forgiveness, thats not grace. Grace is the promise. Thats where the strength is, and that is only found by faith. No one can give you faith, you cant buy it, you cant earn it, but it is available for everyone, not by our “ability”, but by the spirit of Jesus Christ. Believe me man, this is putting myself out there more than you know. The stuff I HAVE (my bones are on fire) to testify to will be heard whether I speak or not. Im not trying to get you to understand anything, that is what revelation is for and why it is such a great desire of mine personally, it is unique to every soul and incredibly awe inspiring to the individual, sacred, indescribable, and always true. I know you dont really like to hear about the revelations ive had, and just talking about them makes me feel as if im boasting, but if you talk to me long enough, I dont know... lets just say you would know I was at least hoping I was counted with Christ.

But believe me, the words of the “righteous” sting me like death sometimes. I dont think they truly realize how deadly their words are. Again, deception. But they do help sharpen faith. Thats why I always try to speak the truth as best I can, and why I know I cannot appear righteous before God, no matter how much faith I have. But there it is again, the touch of grace. Nothing is impossible for God, including loving you. If thats a bad God, then I dont want to know what a good God is in this world. Jesus likens the “good God” to money. “You cannot serve both God and money. Now, I like money, I want money, I work for money, but I dont love money more than God, and my eyes are open to the fact that it is the love of money (Greed) and power that corrupts us. Money is not a tool for survival, but rather a dependence that leads to destruction and blindness. The world certainly hates to hear that. Take that for what its worth.

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but i do think it would take away the righteousness of a lot of people

Jesus does this more than you may know. There is no one righteous but God. (Gospel) In Christ, we are only made righteous by his spirit, not by our strength. It is only through his love for us that we are considered even close to righteous.

There is a truth in the Gospel that people dont like to hear right now. That we are enslaved to sin. We are slaves to the conscience and the desires of the flesh, the only thing that truly frees us from this is grace, and repentance is the way. I am sorely convinced that as soon as people realize they dont desire sin as much as they desire the spirit of God, sin will be seen for what it is... a distraction, a prison, and not the way of the future. Again, if the whole earth is under grace, how could there be sin? But we dont like the way he is establishing this truth, again I ask, who are we to think we can do better? Teaching (revealing) faith to something that doesnt know faith, takes life, and I know I cant design something greater than life. Now I find it very interesting that when you tell someone to do something, like stop sinning, we rebel by our very nature. But, when we truly see the benefit in our life, we no longer rebel, because understanding takes over. Command someone to obey and they will rebel, teach them to trust, and obeying actually becomes a benefit. Trust is the lesson, not sin, and I trust God. Sin does not know love (love cant be separated from itself), trust does.

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if we waste it, if we hurt each other, we've missed our only chance

We dont have to wait for hope any longer. It is available for everyone. Not even human intelligence or time can un-crucify Jesus. His spirit is getting stronger as the world gets colder. The light is already shining and “the darkness has not understood it”... its out with old, in with the new. If you dont get anything Im telling you, at least know now that you do not have to wait for hope. No one does. This is not our only chance. Im sure people who have had a great go at life so far would like to think that, but what about those who clearly are less “fortunate”. The greatest thing you can give the poor is not money, but hope. Its too bad that the ones who do have more find it so difficult to have faith in hope. I would rather be poor with God than rich without him. Your words are not the revelation of life, but of death, but, I am glad that you have such a great life, I just cannot accept your words as truth, and, you dont have to either. Now you will say that you have hope, but a true hope is one that inspires life, and that takes faith. You have to be certain that you have already what you hope for. A life giving hope is different from just hoping you arent going to die, or hoping you get something you want. The hope that is sure is the one that gives life.

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we'd all simply be accountable for our own actions.

I will respond to this later as well. But it still boggles me how people can assume Christians are not held accountable for their actions. I continue to hear this on these forums, and it doesnt make any sense to me. If it is an action to repent or perish with all evil, then surely I am held accountable for taking that action or not. But again, I will reply to this more soon.

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maybe people would learn to think a bit more about their actions before they act, think about their words before they speak, and not ask for forgiveness later.

Once again. I am not Catholic. I dont buy into the confession thing because grace is a spirit. It is not the spirit of forgiveness, but the spirit of everlasting love. Simply understanding you are forgiven is not enough to know grace. It takes faith to know grace and sin is a big part of it. No one who truly knows grace desires to keep on sinning, because the truth that frees is now known, but grace, by its very nature of promise, will stay with us forever and prove itself in spite of/because of our weaknesses. So then how much power does sin have over grace? In fact, grace (the promise) only grows stronger in failure and perseverance.

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we've had christianity for two and half thousand years

- yes, but we have had truth longer than that. Those who belong to truth listen to Jesus. Im sorry you dont like that.

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i'm ready to give it a go without it.

Brother, you never gave it a chance. You, just like most, assume you are not on the side of truth because of all the hypocrites you have run across. I was also raised in the church until I was 9. Parents divorced and my path was “changed”. I followed my path all the way, deep into sin, to the point of almost giving up on God completely. Funny how sin inspires this. But, for some reason I could never give up completely, but I did get very close. When someone gives up all faith, then this life is the only reward they will ever have...”They have received their reward in full”. Sin wise, there is not much I have not done. All of us have our own paths, and they twist and turn ect... but to say I was not on the path to Christ simply because I left the church and followed sin, is most certainly not the truth. There is a song that expresses something similar. “God bless the broken road, that led me straight to you”. Not only that, Jesus gives the story of the Prodigal son. While that story did speak to me, I fully understand that any and all who have come to Jesus in repentance, no matter how much they “sinned”, are the prodigal son as well. No one stayed with God, we all left and were called back by his grace. We are all the Prodigal son. This is also often forgotten by the church.

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i wasn't trying to define love. it was a definition of free thinking

You gave me a definition of free thinking straight from the dictionary. Told me it matched the closest to yours. To me, its like giving me a definition of love from the same source, that was my point. There are many defintions for one word in the dictionary, different uses in our language ect.. but you found the one that resembled yours the closest, I gave you mine. Just because it is not in the dictionary does not make it an invalid definition. I have been accused on here several times for changing definitions of words. I dont change them, I use them in ways that are not always understood, but I am still giving you my truthful definition. To say its not valid because its not in the dictionary that way is a bit frustrating, so, I use the example of “I dont find my defintion for love in the dictionary”, and that seems to help make the point.

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establishing a platform seemed in order. i tried to. you haven't yet.

I asked you “Are the educated considered to be more free in thought than a child in wonder”. That is still my answer. My “platform” for this definition, is that this is a rhetorical question, and seems like common sense to me. It seems to me that one persons free in thought is anothers’ egotistical imprisonment. Perhaps freedom of mind is not bound by natural law, evidence, or even definition, but is also free to search outside of those borders? It is just a bit egotistical for people to assume they are more free in thought than a spiritual believer who is not bound by the “limitations” of those who only respond to evidence. You do not only respond to evidence, and you are proving that to me more and more. Listening is the first step to hearing, and you appear to listen quite well.

There are really good technical guitar players, but its the ones who play from the heart who are not bound by certain scales and patterns. The best ones, IMO, are ones who are connected to both the heart of music and the theory. The mind, to me, is the same way. There are some who live by the heart and feel their way through, some who demand evidence to believe in anything true (whether it is or isnt true), and some who grow in both. Neither of them are more or less free in thought, unless they themselves believe they are more free than another (egotistical imprisonment). We can ALL benefit from one another. Jesus says “Wisdom is proven right by all her children”. This of course, was after the Pharisees faulted him for “eating” and “drinking” with sinners. I already gave you the scripture earlier. So for someone to have a website and call it one for freethinkers, but deny that anything can be found in a spiritual faith, not only do I believe they are missing out, I cant see how anyone can claim they are more free in thought when they cannot or will not even bring themselves to search in the real realms of faith, or even listen to those who have, and continue to find revelation there. So the more I hear this, the more I will reply, because it is simply not a true statement.

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i have to ask, since i can't remember a single time of questioning your intelligence, is this a defensive position you typically assume? i'm gonna guess you've encountered that accusation in the past (uneducated = unintelligent) so you're preemptively stating the contrary here. fair enough. but, i get it, and i'm not claiming otherwise.

I have been confronted on this many times in these forums. I respond with truth. It wasnt you, but somehow (probably my fault) we fell into it again and I still believe saying someone is not a free thinker just because they have faith is a false statement. Perhaps a better statement is that people are different in the way they think? Its not a defensive statement, its just the truth, and I didnt learn it anywhere but through inspiration and revelation, and we are ALL part of it. Remember, listen for truth, dont listen for me. The truth says wisdom is found everywhere, unfortunately, many take that to say, that wisdom is only found in those with PhD’s in educational (theological ect...) studies. Thats why they continue to put those people at the head of our churches. But God is clear about this... Grace is the teacher, and “Christ apportions grace”. In no way am I saying that PhD/ Roman Catholic churches ect... cannot teach grace, I am only saying that is not the only place one can learn it. Many in America seem to think otherwise. This is another classic flaw in our thinking right now. Truth is the teacher, not education. Did you know that grace is even found in the “wicked”? Try teaching that truth to people who believe otherwise. I also have scripture for that as well. (Isaiah) Allowing grace to teach is also about learning the beneficial desires of righteousness in our lives, a righteousness that is only by faith, not by works or even human effort... “SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST.”

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. i haven't seen you quote any of my posts as belittling to you personally, and i don't recall having done it.

No, you have been much more respectful, kind, and sincere than myself. I am still human and very weak. I will mis speak, mis understand, assume ect... but I will still continue to try to be as truthful as I can be. This knowledge means nothing to me if people dont understand the only way to Jesus is by faith. You have to ask for his spirit. This is his Gospel, not mine. Im going to try to teach it the way it was taught to me, otherwise even if the revelations were understood, they have no power without the spirit of grace in Jesus. Repentance is the way to forgiveness, and grace is the way to to it all. “Not by your strength, but by my spirit, said the Lord” Its important you get that at least.

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...inquisition were following the words of jesus. you claimed that they were not. i replied that it was simply your claim, and expressed my certitude that the perpetrators undoubtedly claimed that they absolutely were following the spirit and letter of the bible.

This is only a he said she said if you dont hear what I am telling you (therefore argumentative). The difference is between the letter and the spirit, they are not the same thing. They were following the letter, probably much more deception (money, power, greed ect..) than your willing to give credit for, but they definitely were not following the spirit of Christ. Perhaps calling what you said naive is not the right word. Ignorant is a more fair word, although Im sure you wont like that one either. But to be clear, I am not calling you ignorant, but what you said, as you seem to not know the difference between the letter and the spirit. If you think I did not live in ignorance, you are badly mistaken. I stayed away from the church and the bible because of what I saw it doing to others. Because i saw the hypocrisy, I did not want to be a part of it. However, when I finally read a Gospel (at 27yrs old), I found the truth myself, and now no one can touch the spirit within me, because I know it does not belong to me, but to God. It is his spirit, not mine. But, he shares it with us. This alone is a magnificent revelation and why we are allowed to call God our friend. Not only that, God is the spirit of friendship, therefore, his spirit unites naturally. If there is no unity, there is no spirit. I know many “denominations” hate to hear that, well tough, its the truth. There is not Im this, your that, ect... there must be unity, or we are only fooling ourselves.

To me, the Pope needs to strip off his gown, dress in sackcloth, and present himself not as “his highness” but as one member in the body of Christ, just one member, not more or less special than any other, not more or less sinful. Im not saying he does not know grace, but if he is “his highness”, then what is Jesus? Did not Jesus wash the feet of his disciples? Has the Pope offered to wash anyones feet? The Catholic church has alot to learn, I hope they will listen and hear the truth whenever and by whoever presents it to them. But i do not denounce them either, as I know that Jesus apportions grace and it is silly to think there is no grace in the Catholic church. Not only that, that is a judgment I cannot make despite all the evil that has manifested through it over the years... “In the name of God”. If Jesus was on the offensive against any relgious movement, it was against hypocrisy. That is also clear in the Gospels, but he did not say they wouldnt be around either.

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i get shouted at that i'm going to hell and the conversation ends.

- Funny enough, me too. And trust me, if my mind is not sound, these arrows of death can have a great impact, but i am now wearing “armor”. As it is, I know the truth. The accusers are no better and no more good than I, but I still try to love them even in their ignorance.

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i don't feel like i'm judging you.

I know. Most of the time no one feels like they are judging anyone, but it is still happening because the ones who judge do not judge themselves in the same light. I have absolutely no doubt that you feel like you are not judging me. As I have been saying, our meeting is one of sincerity, and that is not always an easy thing to come across. It may have been wrong for me to assume that, or write it or whatever, but, I did write it, so, it was done with sincerity at the time. But again, I know you feel as if you are not judging me, that is more than enough for me to see your sincerity and purity. Regardless, we all judge, its learning how not to that is the pursuit.

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reflecting the difficulty of balancing the incredible inconsistency of the bible.

I would say the difficulty of balancing the incredible “inconsistency” of life. There is a balancer, neither of us are it. Your searching for worldly answers to spiritual questions, that is much more than difficult, it is impossible without the spirit. But then you may say that I am wasting my time? Dont know, dont care. I am testifying to what I know, thats it. I cant make anyone hear anything.

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they are the questions which we all asked ourselves, and realized the answers were ridiculous, requiring a mental flexibility that i for one rejected.

Yes they are. You have rejected them so far. Its not fair to yourself to stop listening at least, which is why you are continuing to engage in these conversations. Your a glutton for truth (sorry about the glutton part) and you will NEVER stop searching for it, that seems pretty clear. I always say, as long as you stay open, truth will find you.

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to continue to ask questions is not judging.

No its not.

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i'm not here for tricks.

Your sincerity is absolutely refreshing and even more so appreciated. You may have no idea. Tricks dont really bother me that much, but they do help me discern sincerity from mockery at times. If someone is not even in the position to listen, how can they ever hear anything? Still, I continue to speak the truth from my heart, if that finds me in a trap, then so be it, my conscience is clear. I am not intelligent, nor educated, I am only speaking the truth of what I know.

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pick a topic. i hope at this point it's clear that i don't believe in god, any god. yours, zeus, poseidon, Ra, Osiris, Krishna, any of them. they are all the same to me.

Even if you believed in God it does not mean you would have faith. Faith is the truth and God is revealed in that truth. Either you belong to God or you dont. Now you will argue that those people had faith in their God as well. But, the true God of heaven is the God of grace. Not believing in God is understandable as your trying to “sneak” in anyway that way, it is understanding grace that that transcends Christ. Something that many do not understand. If I boast in anything, its that I know Jesus is the Christ. If this alone makes me self righteous in the eyes of others, then I have to expect this, as Jesus was crucified by that very perception. Still if I boast, I will boast that Jesus is the Christ.

I know you say you dont believe in God, any God, I got that. But do you agree that there are many things that can be considered a God of peoples minds? Many people worship money, and Jesus likens money to a God. Makes sense to me. I think we should stop relating God to an “invisible superpower in the sky” and start to see that anything can be considered “a God”, if it has power over the heart and mind of the one “worshiping” it. So, what is the definition of God? Something that someone believes in? Something that someone worships? Something that someone obeys, listens to, follows? What? Jesus teaches that God is spirit. That also makes sense to me. “We know when we understand almighty God is a living man”. Crazy to think that man has all the keys to carry the spirit of the living God... But look at these words from Jesus...

- 33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

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i do believe in the power of scientific inquiry. i think it has elegance in it's simplicity, and i feel that i share in it's thirst to know more.

Of course you do. We all want to know more, but the question is how much is enough? Grace is more than enough for me, Im trying to share that with you. “Questions of science, science of progress, did not speak as loud as my heart”- “The Scientist” Coldplay.

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i believe that even feelings of love are usually accompanied by "evidence", if you can call it that. you meet someone, you like them, they seem to like you, you develop trust, you get to know them, and then your feelings may develop into more.

Pretty much word for word how it happens when you meet Christ... The more you know, the more you desire to know and it clearly does develop into more. More than I have been able to explain anyway, and im a songwriter (humbly I say that). The “more” is exactly what I am testifying for, as many on this forum are as well. There is so much more in Jesus than any of us even know. He is life, and life has all the worth.

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very rarely, if ever, do i think love simply strikes people. i would call that lust, which then may be replaced by love at some later time.

Thats too bad. I do understand. Love does strike though. When it does, you know it is much more than an emotion, it is life to the fullest, and it is exactly why we are here. Life lives through us. I personally wouldnt call what you call lust, I would call it an infatuation, and it definitely is a big part of love. There has to be a flame, a spark, a fire first... that is just the nature of what love desires. It desires to be recognized... or, “aware” of itself. Love has nature, and it loves to love.

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not too often do i feel like you've actually addresses any one of the many points brought up.

Thats because I completely underestimated how much time and effort you put into those posts. That is my fault. I was too quick to share and not too quick to listen. So I printed out all your responses, gave them more attention and responded as best as I could in kind. I apologize for sort of “blowing you off” or “deflecting” your inquiries. Not being too hard on myself, but I am a bit ashamed that I didnt at least listen to your posts more carefully. Apologies.

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i won't claim to be an authority on any of them, but i'll try to answer them as well as i can.

I also dont claim to be an authority on the Gospel. The first post (I believe) you sent me said, “wow, you really like to talk about the Gospel”. I try to live it as best I can because I know the rewards it brings to the heart. I am not an authority. God is the authority, and I am always open to rebuke. I love the fact that I can listen to someone I dont “like” and still hear wisdom from them. Or someone who is 13 yrs old or whatever. I know the truth, that wisdom is found everywhere. Everywhere is most certainly not vague to me at all. It means everywhere.

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my suspicion is that you're not going to ask those kinds of questions, because you already feel you have the answers, and any answers i give that don't fit in will require more mental gymnastics to either dismiss them or "filter" them into your paradigm.

Not quite. There is a difference between knowing the “answers” and knowing the truth. I seek to know more about Jesus. I want to grow spiritually, not in worldly knowledge. This makes us a bit different yes, but I am not going to discard anything that is true. That would go against what I believe, that pure wisdom is true. So, teach me truth, and I will at least listen for truth. Teach me theory, and I have interests that fulfill me much more than that. Like your connection with the physical world, I found a deep connection with the spiritual earth and the natural earth is definitely in that connection. Most definitely. We are what we are, and we are all a part of the same universe. Thinking we are separate is also another flaw in our thinking right now cause that is definitely not the truth.

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i don't think i've been giving you the reasons that i don't believe what you believe.

It was an unfair statement. Its distracting anyway, and I shouldnt have said it. My bad.

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it allowed me to look at any information, scientific, religious, philosophical, whatever, without needing it to fit into any paradigm, and therefore i think i could look at it objectively.

I can see how you feel like that, and that keeps you open, but personally, IMO, I dont think anyone can be as objective or impartial as the truth. Although, it certainly is a pursuit of mine... and yours as well it seems. I think if man could be objective, we would all have the absolute truth, all of us. As pure wisdom is so divine that it is impossible to argue against, much less fight and kill over. Unless of course there is some other agenda besides the search for truth that is. In most cases, there has been.

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it's not that i don't care, i can't speak for anyone else. (about your revelations)

Its just a bummer that all these people are sharing their testimonies and still people are not hearing (not just talking of the forums). Some are though. Me personally, I dont know what else to do. So I just keep sharing and trying to grow in the spirit. Its easy to assume no one is listening or even cares, harder to see sometimes that is clearly not the case.

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but i've asked for a citation from you, similar to the one posted (from leviticus) where the words of jesus negate the law that leviticus invokes, and the topic just goes away. i've asked who's words they were, and you told me if it was slippery for me, to seek greater knowledge. so, you have answered some things when pressed.

Homosexuality is not the problem, in fact, sin is not at all the problem. The “problem” is a lack of faith in Gods grace. Fighting over what is sin and what is not is absolutely pointless, as we all have sin. It takes our eyes off the truth that we are just as evil as everyone else, and begins the “finger pointing”. It is the reason the pharisees accused Jesus of being a sinner because he was “hanging with sinners”. Its all dirt and crap, and it will take our eyes off the truth, because as we accuse others, we are being accused with the same conviction we use.

“For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” (Matt 7:2)

No one will find heaven simply because they are “sin free”. Faith finds heaven and these words of Jesus are very powerful...

- 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

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if the only thing you wish to discuss about religion is the revelation you've had, and the gospels, and avoid any other topics as distasteful, buddy i'm probably gonna get bored. just being honest.

That is a sad thing. Because the revelations ive had (cant speak for everyone) are the greatest things I have. I have no reason to lie to you. God is light, God is spirit and the revelations of those qualities of God are absolutely magnificent. Most certainly the greatest thing I have ever been a part of. But, even with me saying this, most hear.. blah blah blah. And that is why it is sad. But again, I understand. “Always hearing, but never understanding, always seeing but never percieving.” Otherwise, you would know just what I and many are talking about and I believe you would be just as excited about talking about it as well.

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but your faith is based in the bible

My faith is based in the spirit of Jesus. The bible is the testimony of wisdom to man, the spirit is not given through testimony alone, it must be asked for. After the spirit revealed itself with power, the testimonies no longer can testify for the spirit, rather, the spirit itself will testify for itself. Im sorry, but there is much you dont understand if you are still linking the Old Testament with the New. Jesus said, you cannot pour new wine into old wineskins, otherwise the skins will burst, and both the wine and the skins will be ruined, no, instead you pour new wine into new wineskins and both the wine and skins are preserved. This is more than enough of a “citation” that you are looking for, but it too is also spiritually discerned.

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asking about those inconsistencies interests me. seems to interest a lot of people.

Asking about them is great, but just asking about them is not enough to understand them. You’ll more than likely just take that as a deflection and bury it, but, it is the truth. You cannot understand grace without the spirit of grace. A flaw in the revelation of grace? Why? Grace must be revealed, there is no other way. And if you do find some other way to grace, like through human intelligence, it still will not be understood, as grace is only given through a revelation from God. Revelation is the only thing powerful enough to make the “blind” see. I know you dont like to hear that, but it is the truth of the Gospel. In fact, everything I have written here is the truth of the Gospel. I still challenge anyone to prove otherwise. If what i am saying is not the truth of the Gospel, then let that person chime in and enlighten us. Feel free to print out everything and bring it to your pastors, theologians, priests, professors, and whoever else you like. Like I said, its not my Gospel.

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you can't violate my belief system, because it isn't a belief system. it's a body of knowledge, free for anyone to examine. if you're actually interested, ask away.

You got me. Im not actually interested, but that doesnt mean I wont listen. My interest are spiritual by nature. I have seen many people get excited about science. I love to see excitement in anyones eyes. The knowledge I have does not contradict truth. If it is true, I will listen. If I hear something, I will tell you. If I find it does completely contradict what I have found in Christ, I should be able to tell you and you should be able to test that contradiction with what you know. Overall, it is not knowledge I seek, but wisdom. And as I said already, wisdom is found everywhere.

So far I have gathered plenty of reasons (knowledge) you find it virtually impossible to believe in God, but the wisdom I hear from you is in your kindness, sincerity, hunger, openness, and willingness to express the truth without agenda (teach with impartiality). Your interesting to say the least. I am a believer that inspiration is a big part of the movement of wisdom. The inspiration of two sincere individuals speaking truth as best they can is a good way to learn from one another. Truth is the movement of wisdom over the earth, and therefore, in the universe. Truth is the beginning of all existence, the higher power, the thing that holds everything together, the depth and beyond, way beyond our full comprehension. That is, we can only go to the gates of wonder, we cannot go beyond them. The beyond them is eternal and limitless in power, life is an eternal energy. There is constant re-birth, and the heart of the universe burns with a light so bright, we cannot even recognize its glory with our own eyes. There is no question that God is love, because if you’ve ever been in love (or come close even), then you know there is light all around it. It reveals its glory in moments that seem so unbelievably and deloriously good, that it can completely destroy our faith in its genuineness. Thats sad isnt it? That something so great is often missed because we cannot or will not believe in its power. That someone or something can love so much that that love is actually questioned as whether or not it is genuine. So sad.

You dont have to look real hard to see that we humans are very “hard” beings that dont fully understand the depths and powers of this so called emotion that seems to be the very desire of most hearts throughout the history and evolution of the mind of man. That is, we are very weak in our understanding of love, and we have so little faith, and so much power, that we actually reject loves greatest revelations because of the mis-use of that natural combination (little faith, great power). In a sense, its faith that is our desire, but its a lack of faith that makes us reject our greatest desire. So, we are keeping ourselves blinded by our own pride, judged by our own mind, and condemned by our own heart and consciences, as the heart is given life through the desire of love, and dies through the death of it. Faith is the way, and faith is an action. We must repent and become born again, or, your right, this world will be our only “reward”, and only revelation. The biggest question for me is why. The only thing I have found so far, is because life is not about us at all, its about God.

Im sure you’ll have plenty to say in “rebuttal”, but, Ill print that out and start over and over until the inspiration starts to fade. I think ive always followed inspiration to be honest. When my inspiration starts to fade, I only get more hungry.

"We didn't start the fire"

quade · March 22, 2010

Are you familiar with the acronym TLDR?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

rynodigsmusic · March 23, 2010

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Eternal life... deals entirely with the afterlife. The afterlife in Christianity is determined by how you live your life here on Earth.

Not true. Christ wasn't giving us how to live in a better afterlife, he was teaching "life to fullest". in fact, he is life. No where in the Gospel did Jesus mention if you live this way on earth your afterlife will reflect that. Rather, it is our faith that inspires the way we live and the life in us. This is a very common mistake in todays spiritual environment. And the entire Gospel and the NT puts a lot of effort into ensuring people know there is a difference (religion vs spirit). It is not by works that one inherits the kingdom of heaven, but by faith in Jesus. Grace is the kingdom, either you know grace, or you dont.

If you try to live your life just so that you can get into a "better afterlife" or whatever, then your missing the truth entirely... and I do mean entirely. The "you" is understood as one hopefully.

"We didn't start the fire"

rynodigsmusic · March 23, 2010

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Are you familiar with the acronym TLDR?

To be honest, I really dont care if anyone reads it. It is a sincere response to what I perceived as a sincere individual. But, it was important, given the questions, to answer them as truthfully as I could. What I dont like is the negative influence that is often present here. But, it still has been a very good way to inspire genuine thoughts in myself at least. But, it also has the "audience" feel to it as well, and while it adds to the character, personality, of the forums, it also has the ability to inspire people into being right rather than speaking the truth. Friends speak the truth to each other, and I dont think we really come close to speaking the truth to each other on here (maybe in some PM's). I know I hold back. I cant speak for everyone.

But think about it. When I post something, how do you feel about it? But, you have never even met me, nor do you know anything at all about me, just my faith? Funny in a sad way, but, just as true. But is that my fault? I dont know? If you want to read a very sincere reply, for the topic you still show interest in for some reason, then its there. But, it was also written in front of an audience. So, with all that in mind, it was the closest I could get to truth, with the exception of my testimony anyway. But Jesus warns to be careful who you give that to. So im longwinded. my bad. But lots a people got flaws... believe me, Id rather I didnt have to write so much, but its just me i guess.

"We didn't start the fire"

quade · March 23, 2010

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Are you familiar with the acronym TLDR?

To be honest, I really dont care if anyone reads it. It is a sincere response to what I perceived as a sincere individual. But, it was important, given the questions, to answer them as truthfully as I could. What I dont like is the negative influence that is often present here. But, it still has been a very good way to inspire genuine thoughts in myself at least. But, it also has the "audience" feel to it as well, and while it adds to the character, personality, of the forums, it also has the ability to inspire people into being right rather than speaking the truth. Friends speak the truth to each other, and I dont think we really come close to speaking the truth to each other on here (maybe in some PM's). I know I hold back. I cant speak for everyone.

But think about it. When I post something, how do you feel about it? But, you have never even met me, nor do you know anything at all about me, just my faith? Funny in a sad way, but, just as true. But is that my fault? I dont know? If you want to read a very sincere reply, for the topic you still show interest in for some reason, then its there. But, it was also written in front of an audience. So, with all that in mind, it was the closest I could get to truth, with the exception of my testimony anyway. But Jesus warns to be careful who you give that to. So im longwinded. my bad. But lots a people got flaws... believe me, Id rather I didnt have to write so much, but its just me i guess.

The thing is, you don't have to write so much. Nobody's holding a gun to your head and you'd actually have more people reading your thoughts if they were more concise.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

rynodigsmusic · March 23, 2010

Ill keep trying. Its just, his post was very inspiring.

"We didn't start the fire"

Nightingale · March 23, 2010

Wow... are you writing a book? Maybe dropzone.com isn't the best place for your first draft.

That said, I skimmed.

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All man is evil when compared to God.

So, God is good, but what he created is evil. Gotcha.

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