JohnRich 4
QuoteI've neither thought nor said that.
To you, and a few others who have tried to put words in my mouth recently: if the only way to win an argument against me is to claim that I've said something that I've never actually said, then you have already lost the argument. Your best move if you're contemplating such an action, is to just keep quiet.
This has been a public service message brought to you by Jesus, Smith & Wesson.
Forgive me, but your posts lead people to assumptions that are contrary to what Jesus teaches. How would you like it if I ran around telling everyone that skydiving is perfectly safe?
Your leading people to assume that killing in any way is justifiable and even "right"... are you not??? Or are you just telling people to read the Bible and go hunt some squirrels? The only one trying to win an argument here is you... with all respects.
Keep in mind, I understand there is a difference between murder and killing, while your not advocating murder, are you not advocating killing?.. and I have already said that killing can certainly be justified in the mind, but it does not make it right... nor is it a practice that brings one closer to God. This is, however, something that other "religions" believe and even practice.
Christ changed everything... even still, there is not much change manifested on this earth, and the reason why, is because people who stand for peace get routed out and "shut down", by others who supposedly stand for peace as well. We want the same things... world peace, love, and a long life full of happiness and enjoyment for all, but why are we on two different sides of the fence right now?
"We didn't start the fire"
JohnRich 4
QuoteForgive me, but your posts lead people to assumptions that are contrary to what Jesus teaches.
Your leading people to assume that killing in any way is justifiable and even "right"... are you not??? ... Keep in mind, I understand there is a difference between murder and killing, while your not advocating murder, are you not advocating killing?.. and I have already said that killing can certainly be justified in the mind, but it does not make it right... nor is it a practice that brings one closer to God.
I believe that killing in self defense, when necessary, is "right", just as the law of the land approves of it, and I believe that Jesus approved of it also.
You are free to believe differently - I have no problem with that.
But if attacked, I will defend myself, and I won't worry one bit about going to hell for it.
QuoteBut if attacked, I will defend myself, and I won't worry one bit about going to hell for it.
If hell were for people who kill, then most of the prophets would be there
All Im saying is Jesus did not preach killing in any way... it was the exact opposite, and people who read these posts need to know that. I dont believe Jesus approves of killing, but I do believe that he understands it.
What did Jesus say when Peter cut the ear off of the Roman soldier? Peter represents us... and I think it is clearly seen in the Gospel that Jesus understands Peter much better than Peter understood himself.
"We didn't start the fire"
RonD1120 58
Quote
I believe that killing in self defense, when necessary, is "right", just as the law of the land approves of it, and I believe that Jesus approved of it also.
You are free to believe differently - I have no problem with that.
But if attacked, I will defend myself, and I won't worry one bit about going to hell for it.
You have to be tolerant here on justifiable homicide. Many of our Christian brothers and sisters are total and complete pacifists. My guess is they have never encountered true evil face to face. At any rate, I remember getting into a hot email altercation with a church pastor in Oregon post 9/11. He maintained that he would not take up a weapon to defend his home or family against the attack of an intruder. Go figure, how can anyone think that way?
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
JohnRich 4
QuoteMany of our Christian brothers and sisters are total and complete pacifists... a church pastor... He maintained that he would not take up a weapon to defend his home or family against the attack of an intruder.
They're welcome to adopt that response for themselves if they wish.
However, if they try and force it upon me, then I have a problem with it.
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing."
I don't think that Jesus would want evil to triumph.
Quote
You have to be tolerant here on justifiable homicide. Many of our Christian brothers and sisters are total and complete pacifists. My guess is they have never encountered true evil face to face.
HUH? You really need to spend some time with your pacifist Christian brothers if you want to understand them. The Mennonites, Hutterites and Quakers do not believe in peace when it is convenient. They all come from traditions of persecution and pogrom.
RonD1120 58
QuoteQuote
You have to be tolerant here on justifiable homicide. Many of our Christian brothers and sisters are total and complete pacifists. My guess is they have never encountered true evil face to face.
HUH? You really need to spend some time with your pacifist Christian brothers if you want to understand them. The Mennonites, Hutterites and Quakers do not believe in peace when it is convenient. They all come from traditions of persecution and pogrom.
I don't think the pastor in question had experience much in the way of violent confrontation. The point is that they are serious about non-violent pacifism.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
This is only for the record.
If you search your heart in the moment of testing, you will see just how much more restraint and dicsipline it takes to keep peace. Anyone can grab a weapon and kill another for any reason... it takes a "stronger" man to trade the desires and justices of the world for those of the spirit.
That being said, I am not a strong spiritual man, if I were, I would be able to stand up under extreme persecution, brutality, humility, hypocrisy and injustice. As it is, Jesus has already done that, all i can do is try to follow his example the best I can.
Any human can loose/has lost their temper... it is the reconciliation that takes the most strength. The real evil in this world is not the one who kills you, or makes you suffer, but the one who teaches those people to do that... and make no mistake about it, there are many of them in religious churches. Full of zeal for God, but lacking in giving others the understanding that was supposedly given them.
The funny thing about all this, is all of what I am saying is found in the Gospels, so your not agreeing, or disagreeing with me, but with whats in the Gospels.
If you search your heart in the moment of testing, you will see just how much more restraint and dicsipline it takes to keep peace. Anyone can grab a weapon and kill another for any reason... it takes a "stronger" man to trade the desires and justices of the world for those of the spirit.
That being said, I am not a strong spiritual man, if I were, I would be able to stand up under extreme persecution, brutality, humility, hypocrisy and injustice. As it is, Jesus has already done that, all i can do is try to follow his example the best I can.
Any human can loose/has lost their temper... it is the reconciliation that takes the most strength. The real evil in this world is not the one who kills you, or makes you suffer, but the one who teaches those people to do that... and make no mistake about it, there are many of them in religious churches. Full of zeal for God, but lacking in giving others the understanding that was supposedly given them.
The funny thing about all this, is all of what I am saying is found in the Gospels, so your not agreeing, or disagreeing with me, but with whats in the Gospels.
"We didn't start the fire"
Quote"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing."
I don't think that Jesus would want evil to triumph
The Gospel does not say that, nor does it teach that. It does however reveal that no man is good, that only God is good. So, who exactly do you think the "good" men of this world are?
Evil will never triumph over good... ever. They may win some battles of course, but they have already lost the war. Evil, by its very nature, is designed for destruction so that good can be the construct of the earth. Is this not in the Gospels???"We didn't start the fire"
RonD1120 58
QuoteThis is only for the record.
If you search your heart in the moment of testing, you will see just how much more restraint and dicsipline it takes to keep peace. Anyone can grab a weapon and kill another for any reason... it takes a "stronger" man to trade the desires and justices of the world for those of the spirit.
That being said, I am not a strong spiritual man, if I were, I would be able to stand up under extreme persecution, brutality, humility, hypocrisy and injustice. As it is, Jesus has already done that, all i can do is try to follow his example the best I can.
Any human can loose/has lost their temper... it is the reconciliation that takes the most strength. The real evil in this world is not the one who kills you, or makes you suffer, but the one who teaches those people to do that... and make no mistake about it, there are many of them in religious churches. Full of zeal for God, but lacking in giving others the understanding that was supposedly given them.
The funny thing about all this, is all of what I am saying is found in the Gospels, so your not agreeing, or disagreeing with me, but with whats in the Gospels.
I find no quarrel with your stand. All I can say is that I keep weapons in my house and I travel with them. If push comes to shove I am prepared to use what I have to protect my family, my property and my personal well being.
I consider myself a sheepdog. The sheep may feel uneasy about me but I am here to help keep the wolves away.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
All this talk about what Jesus thinks and tells us to do is a one sided perspective. I'm not saying its wrong or that I disagree with it, however it is unrealistic in todays world across many levels. Ask yourself what you would do if a big bad man was standing over you ready to end your life(or loved ones) and you had a means to stop him? Unless you've been in that situation all you can do is postulate. But I am confident that all of you would raise your hand in some manner and attempt to stop that person, it's human nature no matter what you believe in.
What about sports teams in the locker rooms asking for Gods blessing to beat the other team? Or how about the scene in saving private ryan where the guy in the bell tower is picking off the advancing Germans while reciting Bible verses, is he wrong, who is qualified to say yes or no?
Having reference to Bible verses on a weapons optic is not a big deal IMO. The only reason you hear feedback that it is from those higher up in the military is because they know they have to play the PC/political game to keep their jobs and to appease those who have nothing better to do than make a mountain out of a mole hill. What if it had been groups of soldiers writing those markings in the same unapparent way on their optics or gear?
Pure and simple, this is PC bullshit that the media likes to sensationalize and make into an issue.
What about sports teams in the locker rooms asking for Gods blessing to beat the other team? Or how about the scene in saving private ryan where the guy in the bell tower is picking off the advancing Germans while reciting Bible verses, is he wrong, who is qualified to say yes or no?
Having reference to Bible verses on a weapons optic is not a big deal IMO. The only reason you hear feedback that it is from those higher up in the military is because they know they have to play the PC/political game to keep their jobs and to appease those who have nothing better to do than make a mountain out of a mole hill. What if it had been groups of soldiers writing those markings in the same unapparent way on their optics or gear?
Pure and simple, this is PC bullshit that the media likes to sensationalize and make into an issue.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
QuoteAll this talk about what Jesus thinks and tells us to do is a one sided perspective. I'm not saying its wrong or that I disagree with it, however it is unrealistic in todays world across many levels.
Do you think it was more realistic during his time? As I recall the story ended rather violently (ya, ya, I know Christians don't believe the story ended there). All the apostles except John were murdered. I don't think claiming that the situation today is different is a fair out.
billvon 2,391
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>Ask yourself what you would do if a big bad man was standing over you
>ready to end your life(or loved ones) and you had a means to stop him?
>Unless you've been in that situation all you can do is postulate. But I am
>confident that all of you would raise your hand in some manner and
>attempt to stop that person, it's human nature no matter what you
>believe in.
Agreed. But we're also aware that what our human nature drives us to do is not always what our morality tells us we should do.
Take the same scenario and imagine instead of him standing over someone threatening to end their life, he's threatening to ruin them financially, calling them the son of a whore, a cocksucker, a traitor etc etc. Human nature would tell you to beat the crap out of him - but your morality may override that and tell you to walk away.
Human nature is not always a good guide as to what to do. Religion is one way that differing morality is expressed.
>ready to end your life(or loved ones) and you had a means to stop him?
>Unless you've been in that situation all you can do is postulate. But I am
>confident that all of you would raise your hand in some manner and
>attempt to stop that person, it's human nature no matter what you
>believe in.
Agreed. But we're also aware that what our human nature drives us to do is not always what our morality tells us we should do.
Take the same scenario and imagine instead of him standing over someone threatening to end their life, he's threatening to ruin them financially, calling them the son of a whore, a cocksucker, a traitor etc etc. Human nature would tell you to beat the crap out of him - but your morality may override that and tell you to walk away.
Human nature is not always a good guide as to what to do. Religion is one way that differing morality is expressed.
QuoteQuoteAll this talk about what Jesus thinks and tells us to do is a one sided perspective. I'm not saying its wrong or that I disagree with it, however it is unrealistic in todays world across many levels.
Do you think it was more realistic during his time? As I recall the story ended rather violently (ya, ya, I know Christians don't believe the story ended there). All the apostles except John were murdered. I don't think claiming that the situation today is different is a fair out.
Fair enough. Ok, if it wasn't an obtainable or completely realistic way to live and survive in the world then, why should it be different now? In many ways it isn't, we just have flashy stuff and technology that they didn't back then. No one can unequivocally say that the words we read today are the verbatim words/ideas that God and or jesus passed to man. The teachings however are sound but those ideals or levels people should strive to obtain in some cases are unobtainable by the average everyday man and in some cases the teachings contradict one another. I am not disagreeing with what the bible says or with people who try and live by it. I am saying that there are instances when you simply cannot live up to the standards that it asks a person to.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
I understand 110%... thats what I hope John and any others reading this know. I just cant agree with it for reasons that are literally unexplainable.
Its along the lines of Jonahs lesson... nothing belongs to us, not our life, not even our family. But again, this is a practice few could ever live up to. For me, my journey has led me to this truth... "that life is about learning how to let go". God is and always has been the avenger... I trust in his justice, and I am FAR from innocent myself.
Its along the lines of Jonahs lesson... nothing belongs to us, not our life, not even our family. But again, this is a practice few could ever live up to. For me, my journey has led me to this truth... "that life is about learning how to let go". God is and always has been the avenger... I trust in his justice, and I am FAR from innocent myself.
"We didn't start the fire"
QuoteI am saying that there are instances when you simply cannot live up to the standards that it asks a person to.
Exactly. Jesus is the perfect example of perfect love. No man could ever live up to that perfection. We saw that in the lives of the apostles; but, we can follow his perfection. What do you think he would say about a soldier who gave his life to help his freinds? That there is no greater love. Period. Brother to brother is not exclusive to Christians is it? Its the love in that sacrafice that proves real. As real as anything you can see, touch, or taste... not a figment of the imagination as so many like to believe.
I have said many times that God ordains people to be what they are. Soldiers are ordained by God... Lawmen, Doctors, Scientists, Preachers, Bums on the street, and even the "evil" man. Believe it or not, the people you are fighting are also ordained by God to kill the "infidels". God ordains nature... I think nature has shown us a few things dont you? The dolphins can swim in bliss for a time, but the shark can brutally destroy its prey. There is an order to everything made... including us.
War is nothing new to man. Jesus on the otherhand is new to man, and is also "ordained" by God, and his spirit is not always expressed by those who use his name. Let me be clear, I am not speaking of anyone on this forum, just speaking the truth in general. So, you keep what God has given you in your heart... he has obvioulsy made you a protector, but at least keep an ear open so that your soul can rest in peace when the real thieves begin the prowl.
"We didn't start the fire"
Quote>Ask yourself what you would do if a big bad man was standing over you
>ready to end your life(or loved ones) and you had a means to stop him?
>Unless you've been in that situation all you can do is postulate. But I am
>confident that all of you would raise your hand in some manner and
>attempt to stop that person, it's human nature no matter what you
>believe in.
Agreed. But we're also aware that what our human nature drives us to do is not always what our morality tells us we should do.
Take the same scenario and imagine instead of him standing over someone threatening to end their life, he's threatening to ruin them financially, calling them the son of a whore, a cocksucker, a traitor etc etc. Human nature would tell you to beat the crap out of him - but your morality may override that and tell you to walk away.
Human nature is not always a good guide as to what to do. Religion is one way that differing morality is expressed.
That is the point I was making and conclusion that most would come to. So how do we humans determine which is right/wrong?
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
billvon 2,391
>So how do we humans determine which is right/wrong?
Religion is one way; it's an attempt to demonstrate a supernatural approval of morality. Laws are another. We get together and decide "murder isn't OK but verbal insults are" and codify that into constitutions, laws, statutes and rules. More often than not, these laws are written and interpreted by people who are able to heed what their higher minds decide over what their instincts tell them to do.
That's not to say that we don't base many of those laws on our human nature, or that some of our morality comes from how our brains and bodies are constructed. Often, our instincts and basic emotions come from our physiology, and we often use them as the basis for law. (Google 'mirror neuron' for an example of how our brain construction leads to compassion, for example.)
But more often than not, we can disregard those drives when we feel society is better served by a different approach. Affording the right to trial by jury to a serial rapist/murderer would be one such example. Sure, we want to see him burn. But we think that society is served by _everyone_ having their day in court, so we pay for the courtroom and the lawyer even if it feels 'wrong' to do so.
Religion is one way; it's an attempt to demonstrate a supernatural approval of morality. Laws are another. We get together and decide "murder isn't OK but verbal insults are" and codify that into constitutions, laws, statutes and rules. More often than not, these laws are written and interpreted by people who are able to heed what their higher minds decide over what their instincts tell them to do.
That's not to say that we don't base many of those laws on our human nature, or that some of our morality comes from how our brains and bodies are constructed. Often, our instincts and basic emotions come from our physiology, and we often use them as the basis for law. (Google 'mirror neuron' for an example of how our brain construction leads to compassion, for example.)
But more often than not, we can disregard those drives when we feel society is better served by a different approach. Affording the right to trial by jury to a serial rapist/murderer would be one such example. Sure, we want to see him burn. But we think that society is served by _everyone_ having their day in court, so we pay for the courtroom and the lawyer even if it feels 'wrong' to do so.
So what is the problem with putting alphanumeric references to bible verses on weapons optics?
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING
They should inscribe the Bible verses on the bullets. 
Speed Racer
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quade 3
QuoteThey should inscribe the Bible verses on the bullets.
That would make the bullets veer to the right.
If you really want to be a straight shooter, you need the bullets to be balanced.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
QuoteSo what is the problem with putting alphanumeric references to bible verses on weapons optics?
Sorry for the hi-jack... but its not what is right or wrong, but what is revealed as truth. The truth is that while we are doing that with our weapons, others are doing that with thiers. They think they are right, we think we are right... right and wrong are perceptions of man, but there is an absolute truth in the balance.
What would you do if in a heated battle, freinds are dying on both sides, but somehow a wave of consiousness reveals itself and suddenly someone, either on your side or the other, throws down their weapon and walks into the open with a desire of peace? Would you do the same? This is an extremely hypothetical situation, but it is not completely out of the realm of the human heart. This will never happen... ever until Jesus is revealed again.
We have that sort power, but we are too concerned with who is right and who is wrong, rather than the truth. So, we kill to protect our beliefs. This has been going on since the beginning, and will only stop when everyone knows the truth.
"We didn't start the fire"
Go back to message #244, to which you replied. Using your mouse, click your left mouse button, hold it down, and drag your cursor past the end of my message, to reveal another hidden comment. As it turns out, it's just for you. I knew someone would do it.
The anti-religion bigots are so predictable.
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