Balance of Wealth

[Lucky... 0]

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The small percentage at the top have more than enough for the large percentage at the bottom remember.

That's the understatement of the year, the top 20% hold 93% of the cash.

[billvon 2,380]

>American rich whine that any taxes aren't fair, if they had it their way we
>would look like Tijuana with people on the brink of death living on the
>sidewalk begging.

I think they'd prefer that everyone was middle class or better, because then their taxes would go down. I know I would. And while I'm probably not rich by your standards, I'm definitely rich compared to worldwide average.

[Lucky... 0]

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If you really want socialism, go live in a country that is set up for that.

That's possible, but I willtry to make the US more Socialist while I'm here.

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Seriously, why does every country have to be the same way? Just select the type of place you want to live in & move there.

And there's 1 type of Socialism.

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The USA is set up to lean more towards individual liberty & initiative.

Yes I know, that's why the purveyors of mass Capitalism have run the country 12T in debt, that individual liberty thing, not to mention mass executions as part of that liberty.

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If you REALLY want to live under socialism, stop trying to convert one of the countries that is MOST staunchly un-socialist.

Or should we say anti-Socialist; I like how you tap danced around that. Hey, liberty; don't I have teh right to to that if I wish? As for set up and liberty, you mean set up under slavery and oppression to women set up for liberty? That's what I thought.

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Move to a country that already leans more towards collectivism, and work from there.
Hell of a lot easier.

And that's a possibility.

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People moved here because they wanted a less authoritarian government.

Yea, and look what they got. I love how you speak for all immigrants. Many move here just for the money to send home, period.

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So in other words, the populating of America resulted in a selection for people who were more likely to be individualists.

Again, speaking for all immigrants. And again, many move here for the money, nothing else.

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Your best bet, if you want socialism, is to move somewhere where people are already more collectivist than individualist.

Maybe, but what is that, 8 times you've said that? How is it this liberty if I am chided for trying to shape my country?

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I don't believe that one country should impose its culture on others by force.

And it's a good thing America isn't ethnocentrist.

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I didn't agree with the Cold War.

The USSR was probably laughing at senile Ronnie for thinking they were building their military when they were just trying to not implode. Then Fascist Ronnie was building teh Military Industrial COmplex to make his buddies rich and get a fuzzy feeling that he's actually doing good thing for the US. It was so sick and he took the debt from 900B to 5.5T before the following presidents could curb his mess.

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Let there be different types of countries & let people move where it fits their personality best.

Countries morph, the US is about to undergo a change and I will do what I can to promote that change.

[Lucky... 0]

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>American rich whine that any taxes aren't fair, if they had it their way we
>would look like Tijuana with people on the brink of death living on the
>sidewalk begging.

I think they'd prefer that everyone was middle class or better, because then their taxes would go down. I know I would. And while I'm probably not rich by your standards, I'm definitely rich compared to worldwide average.

That's logical, but it's also a logical fallacy IMO. If you look at the last 4 presidents, maybe more, there is a direct inverse relationship between outlays and taxes. So to think if everyone was self-sufficient then outlays would fall and taxes would follow hasn't happened since at least Reagan, perhaps back to Eisenhower.

But I get what you're saying and you're right in regard to the perception of the rich, but it just hasn't panned out that as outlays fall, taxes fall as well, at least not for teh last 28 years.

[rhys 0]

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If you REALLY want to live under socialism, stop trying to convert one of the countries that is MOST staunchly un-socialist.

Or should we say anti-Socialist;

I would say 'closet socialist'.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Lucky... 0]

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If you REALLY want to live under socialism, stop trying to convert one of the countries that is MOST staunchly un-socialist.

Or should we say anti-Socialist;

I would say 'closet socialist'.

Well sure, we're all just 1 disaster away from being a Socialist or wishing we were. I know plenty of hardcore Capitalists who denouce Socialism until they have a need, because, of course, they deserve it unlike all the other leaches. BTW, my dad is the worst as a closet Socialist. He's 74 and sucking it all down with a different tune.

[georgerussia 0]

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I don't like the use of the word, "fair" which is why I put it in quotation marks. I guess we could say it's universally equitable but for the millionaires.

Then it's basically no different from "tax another guy, but not me", which is now widely represented as "tax the rich", when a "rich" is defined as "someone making more than me". How could this system be fair even in theory, I just cannot understand.

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It appears you're advocating the US system which is much like Communism in distribution of wealth, they are a lot alike. Again, fair is subjective, American rich whine that any taxes aren't fair, if they had it their way we would look like Tijuana with people on the brink of death living on the sidewalk begging.

There are two obvious problems with this approach:

1. It is simply impossible to put _everyone_ into equal position through wealth redistribution. While some things are possible (like providing everyone with the same food), some are not possible no matter what you do (like providing everyone with a three bedroom condo facing Central Park in NYC).

2. It takes away the incentive to work hard. Why would one work hard if the government provides you basic stuff for free? For example, both me and my wife were born in poor families, and while we weren't starving, we did have to often live on bread and pasta, and reuse clothes from previous generations. This gave us tremendous incentive to study a lot and then work hard so we could avoid such a future for us, for our parents and our kids. This is also a pretty typical case with every immigrant I know - there is simply nobody who was born with a silver spoon, everyone knows what it means to be poor (like in Tijuana, not like in US), and those memories force us to work hard to avoid it. As a direct consequence, this means that I will work harder to make sure my employer is satisfied with my performance, which means I'll provide more/better services or greater skills for the same pay comparing to others - which, in turn, means that even considering a few disadvantaging factors (being white, male, married with kids and non-gay), I'd likely get a promotion/raise faster, or would be laid off later than others. Knowing a few Mexicans, most of them went through similar background, and Tijuana beggars were also major factor for them to become what they became.

I personally believe that if you haven't seen the hell, you wouldn't appreciate the heaven. And if you never been poor, you'd very unlikely to make yourself rich through hard work. And I teach this to my kids too. For example, none of them gets ANY allowance, and all the money they have they have to earn. Wanna go to a movie, a funny jeans or a new phone? You have to work for that. You don't want to? Then you won't have any. And save for college, Daddy will not pay for it either.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mnealtx 0]

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You won't get many Americans to understand the comradery that Socialism / Communism brings.

You've living in a fucking dream world - MOVE to one of those countries and see how it really works.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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The small percentage at the top have more than enough for the large percentage at the bottom remember.

That's the understatement of the year, the top 20% hold 93% of the cash.

Nice use of cherry-picked data.

Per IRS stats (2005 numbers), the top 1% (>365k AGI) hold 21.2% of the wealth and they pay 39.38% of the income tax.

The top 5% (>145k AGI) hold 35.75% of the wealth and pay 59.67% of the income tax.

The top 25% (>62K AGI) hold 67.5% of the wealth and pay 85.99% of the income tax.

I'd say they're contributing enough already.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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You won't get many Americans to understand the comradery that Socialism / Communism brings.

You've living in a fucking dream world - MOVE to one of those countries and see how it really works.

I kind of do, the wealth distribution here is about like Communism. There are plenty of Socialist nations that are leagues better than us.

[Lucky... 0]

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I'd say they're contributing enough already.

If class disparity were shrinking I would agree, but since it's rapidly growing I disagree.

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Per IRS stats (2005 numbers), the top 1% (>365k AGI) hold 21.2% of the wealth and they pay 39.38% of the income tax.

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratification/income&wealth.htm

I would agree with the taxes, I've read top 1% pays 33-40%.

As for the total national wealth, all of the numbers I see the top 1% hold near 40%. This chart shows 34%.

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http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

This graph from Univ Calif Santa Cruz states in 2004 top 1% owns 42% of financial wealth and 34% as a net worth. The bottom 80% own 7.5% of finacial wealth and 15% total net worth.

Show me your data.

Look here http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/images/wealth/Figure_4.gif look at the Reagan era, Clnton era and then GWB era and you'll see who is for the little guy.

Then look at the disparity bewteen our top 10% and other countries.
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

So let's see your citation.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Making peanuts might mean living four to an apartment, or eating Top Ramen, or not being able to afford cable or a decent car, but that's better than being unemployed.

no it's not...

(what happens if you get sick - who's going to look after you)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[mnealtx 0]

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I'd say they're contributing enough already.

If class disparity were shrinking I would agree, but since it's rapidly growing I disagree.

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Per IRS stats (2005 numbers), the top 1% (>365k AGI) hold 21.2% of the wealth and they pay 39.38% of the income tax.

Show me your data.

So let's see your citation.

What part of "IRS stats" threw you off? It's on their website.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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Making peanuts might mean living four to an apartment, or eating Top Ramen, or not being able to afford cable or a decent car, but that's better than being unemployed.

no it's not...

(what happens if you get sick - who's going to look after you)

Move to England so they can sit in the hospital parking lot in an ambulance for hours?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[robskydiv 0]

George Russia & KBordson, Knock it off with the personal attacks.

[Rookie120 0]

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George Russia & KBordson, Knock it off with the personal attacks.

So when did you become a greenie?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[warpedskydiver 0]

I just wonder when anyone got the balls to try and talk to kbordson in a manner other than respectful.

She may be a doctor but she also is tougher than many of the men on here.

And a better shooter.

Mpohl needs to make an apology to kbordson immediately, that was no way to treat a person, let alone a wonderful woman and a doctor as well.


What he said was just plain gross and perverted.

Believe me when I say that if I think it is gross and perverted it goes beyond the definition of most anyone else.

[Lucky... 0]

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I'd say they're contributing enough already.

If class disparity were shrinking I would agree, but since it's rapidly growing I disagree.

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Per IRS stats (2005 numbers), the top 1% (>365k AGI) hold 21.2% of the wealth and they pay 39.38% of the income tax.

Show me your data.

So let's see your citation.

What part of "IRS stats" threw you off? It's on their website.

All I know is the part that requires you to do research. If you looked at the numbers off their website, why not post the link? I posted 2 links, I guess we're back to: You won't mind if I dismiss your opinions as irrelevant.

If you don't postteh link, we'll know you made these numbers up. My data was of a University's data.

[robskydiv 0]

Don't worry about it Rook

[billvon 2,380]

> If you look at the last 4 presidents, maybe more, there is a direct
>inverse relationship between outlays and taxes. So to think if everyone
>was self-sufficient then outlays would fall and taxes would follow hasn't
>happened since at least Reagan, perhaps back to Eisenhower.

You are equating government spending to personal prosperity. They are not the same thing. The government can spend money whether or not most people are rich or poor.

[billvon 2,380]

>no it's not...

Having a job is not better than being unemployed? OK. We will have to agree to disagree.

>what happens if you get sick - who's going to look after you

Your family and friends (which is who would look after most of us.)

[mnealtx 0]

Yeah, whatever. Look the info up or don't, I don't really give a fuck.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Ion01 1]

So where in the constitution is the government given the right to determine what someone should be payed?
Also, someone can't get by at 7 an hour in california where as you can drive a decent car and have an nice apartment in oklahoma at 7 an hour so how can you have a single standard for the whole country.
In addition, the minimum wage just causes the devalue of the dollar through inflation. If everyone was payed 100 dollars an hour then 100 dollars isn't worth that much anymore. Its that simple!

[Ion01 1]

Also, the real robbers are the government officials who are rediculously rich off of our hard work. We can chose to buy or not buy a particular product so a business doesn't take our money as some would claim.....the fed does. You have no choice but to give 35-40% of your money to the government! Even God didn't ask for more than 10%!

[billvon 2,380]

>Also, someone can't get by at 7 an hour in california where as you can
>drive a decent car and have an nice apartment in oklahoma at 7 an hour
>so how can you have a single standard for the whole country.

There's not. The California minimum wage is higher.