Obama wants to kill vets!

[marks2065 0]

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not to mention the jobs they fill cause part of the unemployment we have.

Don't kid yourself. have you SEEN the jobs they do? Nobody on unemployment checks is standing outside home depot waiting for a truck to come take them to pick strawberries in 100 degree heat or dig holes all day. I personally am in total favor of immigration reform but to say they are taking jobs legal citizens would do is just fucking ridiculous.

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so you are telling me that of the 12 mil or so of the illegal imagrants none of them are taking jobs from the legal, american work force?

[GeorgiaDon 340]

OK, so I guess you don't actually know anything about the reason for the holdup in deportation.

It's not always a bad thing that people have an opportunity to appeal an immigration decision. When I and my family filed for US citizenship, USCIS messed up my son's paperwork and denied his application. I had to file an appeal, and pay a $630 fee, to get them to take a second look at his paperwork. At the appeal hearing, a different immigration officer looked at my son's paperwork for 30 seconds, said it was all in order and there was never any reason to deny his application, and scheduled him to take the citizenship oath that afternoon. However I was still out $630, we had to endure 10 months of not knowing what would happen to my son (would he be deported back to Canada?), and he missed a chance to vote in November's election which he really wanted to be able to do, all because of their mistake. Immigration officers are only human, they are underfunded and overworked, and so they make mistakes. Allowing people a chance to appeal incorrect decisions so their lives aren't ruined because an immigration officer was in a rush and isn't a "liberal plot", it's basic American fairness. IMHO

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...not to mention the jobs they fill cause part of the unemployment we have.

If employers in certain industries were to pay a realistic wage, those jobs would be filled by Americans I'm sure. Of course our chicken would cost a bit more.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rivetgeek 0]

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not to mention the jobs they fill cause part of the unemployment we have.

Don't kid yourself. have you SEEN the jobs they do? Nobody on unemployment checks is standing outside home depot waiting for a truck to come take them to pick strawberries in 100 degree heat or dig holes all day. I personally am in total favor of immigration reform but to say they are taking jobs legal citizens would do is just fucking ridiculous.

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so you are telling me that of the 12 mil or so of the illegal imagrants none of them are taking jobs from the legal, american work force?

Are you just having issues with the reply system or do you seriously not know how it works? the reply tags go around the part you are replying to ONLY. One tag to start the quoted material, another to stop it.

And yes, I'm saying there are no Americans willing to do those jobs for the wages that are paid. You wanna have those jobs go to Americans? Enforce mandatory wages of $10 an hour for strawberry picking. I promise you Americans will line up around the block.

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[marks2065 0]

And yes, I'm saying there are no Americans willing to do those jobs for the wages that are paid. You wanna have those jobs go to Americans? Enforce mandatory wages of $10 an hour for strawberry picking. I promise you Americans will line up around the block.

[marks2065 0]

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OK, so I guess you don't actually know anything about the reason for the holdup in deportation.

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there are alot of reasons that deportation gets held up. but what would the reason be for flying from mexico to ohare and then have to be let go? That is what Marcos doesn't understand( my customer that is the imigration officer) he is denied deportation on about 90% of all illegals that fit this description. the other 10% are taken and he doesn't know what happens to most of them. The illegals get detained, proven they are illegal and then the door is opened and they walk away. the system is messed up, but if we errored on the side of protecting the US the problem would start to go away because the illegals would start realize that they would be fighting a loosing battle and start to stay in mexico. (or were ever they are from)

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[GeorgiaDon 340]

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he is denied deportation on about 90% of all illegals that fit this description.

That does sound strange, and I can see why he would be frustrated. How can these people even get on a flight to the US? My experience with international travel is that I have to show that I have a passport, appropriate visas, etc before I can get on the plane. No airline wants the expense of taking people back, plus these days there probably wouldn't be an empty seat.

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...if we errored on the side of protecting the US the problem would start to go away because the illegals would start realize that they would be fighting a loosing battle and start to stay in mexico. (or were ever they are from)

No disagreement from me about that.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[marks2065 0]

My experience with international travel (caribean and south america) is that you only need your passport when getting off the plane to clear customs. getting on the plane only needs an ID.

[rivetgeek 0]

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And yes, I'm saying there are no Americans willing to do those jobs for the wages that are paid. You wanna have those jobs go to Americans? Enforce mandatory wages of $10 an hour for strawberry picking. I promise you Americans will line up around the block.

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so according to you it is ok to hire illegals and put them almost into a slave labor type job? long hard hours, poor working conditions at lower wages than allowed by law?

[rushmc 18]

"Forced"?

Your liberalness is showing

Edited to Add:

Nope, sorry, your comunism is showing

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rivetgeek 0]

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"Forced"?

Your liberalness is showing

Edited to Add:

Nope, sorry, your comunism is showing

Do you even know what communism IS? Or you just remember Ronnie telling you it was bad and that's all you need to know? Employers don't pay barely anything in a communist society as almost all the check goes directly to the government. Here's a tip scooter, the government ALREADY "forces" employers to pay a minimum wage. Im just saying it should be enforced in jobs that are mostly done by illegal aliens.

It's pretty obvious you have very strong opinions on subjects you do not fully (or even partially) understand.

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[marks2065 0]

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so according to you it is ok to hire illegals and put them almost into a slave labor type job? long hard hours, poor working conditions at lower wages than allowed by law?

[wmw999 2,120]

Do you think it's possible to have no illegal aliens whatsoever in the USA?

What kind of system would make that possible, given the large size of the country, and the value that we place on independence and privacy both for individuals and companies?

Would you want to live with such a system yourself?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[marks2065 0]

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Do you think it's possible to have no illegal aliens whatsoever in the USA?

What kind of system would make that possible, given the large size of the country, and the value that we place on independence and privacy both for individuals and companies?

Would you want to live with such a system yourself?

Wendy P.

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no but i am sure 10+ million is a little much, don't you?

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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What needs to happen is employers need to be forced to pay competitive (and legal) wages. If they did, Americans would take the jobs, there wouldn't be any reason for illegal immigration,

Perhaps, if only those people who are legally entitled to work here could be hired, the market for labor would tighten up and employers would find they need to offer decent wages to find employees willing to work for them. The only "forcing" would be by market forces, with no need for governmental intervention. Hey, it's worth a try.

Heh, how's that for a "liberal plot".

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rivetgeek 0]

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so according to you it is ok to hire illegals and put them almost into a slave labor type job? long hard hours, poor working conditions at lower wages than allowed by law?

Still havent figured out the reply system yet eh?

Stop putting words into my mouth. What needs to happen is employers need to be forced to pay competitive (and legal) wages. If they did, Americans would take the jobs, there wouldn't be any reason for illegal immigration, and the problem would be solved without your gestapo 1943 mentality

[marks2065 0]

And no, it doesn't work that way. There will ALWAYS be some group willing to work for illegally low wages. The only way to stop it is to actually enforce the minimum wage laws that are already in place to prevent exactly this sort of thing.

[wmw999 2,120]

I'm not about to debate that there are a ton of illegal aliens out there, or that it would be better if they were home. Those are facts. The debate is how to reduce the numbers to a smaller proportion of the US population.

Just rounding them up and shipping them there is not a good long-term proposition. It would cost us a TON of money (the estimate I've heard is $41 billion a year) without bringing a whole lot of value in. After all, while yes there would be all those low-level jobs available, the employers would have to spend money to hire new workers, and that would cause them all to take a hit.

Note that about 7 billion a year comes into social security from illegals. That's a pretty big chunk of change, and it's never likely to be collected.

But the reason that minimum wage laws are not enforced is that unscrupulous employers can get away with it. It's happening in New Orleans, where day laborers are getting stiffed regularly, whether they are illegal or not. What they do have in common is that they're poor, they're not real aware of how to go about filing that kind of grievance, and their losses are not large enough to get the legal community interested.

If you really, really want to cut illegal immigration, find out what single town has the largest number of illegal immigrants (or the best communicators among them), and help the economy in that town to improve such that people can go back and support their families. Because most people would rather be home with their families, than in some foreign country. After the first town, work on the second. Their poverty is our problem.

Right now they have to stay in the US, because if they go back for awhile they have a hard time getting back in. 20 years ago, they could go back for a year or two until things got bad again.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rivetgeek 0]

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you are still thinking backwards. the reason minimum wage laws are not enforced with illegals is just that they are illegal and cannot go to the feds to make a claim against the employer. if the employer hired legal citizens then he would have to pay minimum wage or face the labor laws of the state.

It's YOUR thinking that is backwards. You will NEVER get rid of illegal immigrants as long as the conditions here are better than conditions wherever they come from. The only reason they are hired here is because they are willing to work for almost nothing and the government and law enforcement turn a blind eye.

If the government actually enforced the already existing laws and forced employers to pay legal wages, they would be ZERO incentive to hire illegals, hence no jobs for them and they would have no reason or ability to stay.

It's all well and good to just say "kick them out" but with 20 million people, that's just not physically feasible or politically smart. Remove the incentive by focusing on the one thing you CAN control. Legal business owners paying only legal wages will certainly reduce the amount of illegal immigrants.

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[rehmwa 2]

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you are still thinking backwards. the reason minimum wage laws are not enforced with illegals is just that they are illegal and cannot go to the feds to make a claim against the employer. if the employer hired legal citizens then he would have to pay minimum wage or face the labor laws of the state.

It's YOUR thinking that is backwards.

I think you both are wrong.

and you both are right.



we have two separate and identifiable problems.

1 - employers that hire illegally
2 - workers the take illegal jobs

both are guilty, both are wrong, and the guilt of 1 does not excuse the guilt of the other

if we don't pursue and enforce the laws broken by both groups, then any partial solution will not work

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[marks2065 0]

It's YOUR thinking that is backwards. You will NEVER get rid of illegal immigrants as long as the conditions here are better than conditions wherever they come from. The only reason they are hired here is because they are willing to work for almost nothing and the government and law enforcement turn a blind eye.

If the government actually enforced the already existing laws and forced employers to pay legal wages, they would be ZERO incentive to hire illegals, hence no jobs for them and they would have no reason or ability to stay.

It's all well and good to just say "kick them out" but with 20 million people, that's just not physically feasible or politically smart. Remove the incentive by focusing on the one thing you CAN control. Legal business owners paying only legal wages will certainly reduce the amount of illegal immigrants.

[wmw999 2,120]

It is already illegal to give welfare to illegals. They can receive charity from private enterprises, but those are private enterprises.

The only free medical they get is the same thing that others in the US get -- either what they or their insurance pays for, or what they get as emergency patients. Which should they not get?

As far as fining employers ungodly amounts, great. But make it possible for employers to figure out who's legal and who isn't. Oh wait -- that's that silly SS database again.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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But make it possible for employers to figure out who's legal and who isn't.

careful, if you say stuff like this, your liberal friends will call you the "r" word.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Yeah, like rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright!

I actually don't know any "liberals" who would object to that.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rehmwa 2]

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Yeah, like rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright!

I actually don't know any "liberals" who would object to that.

really? you can't find any instances where proposals requiring citizenship to work haven't resulted in that particular knee jerk reaction?

no friends? (I believe that, in real life 'most' liberals, like 'most' conservative are actually pretty reasonable)

no posters here? (look around, it's all over the place)

no Congressmen or public figures?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Well OK. I don't personally know anyone who supports the idea that people who are not citizens, or who haven't gone through the process to come here legally, should be able to work or collect government benefits. I am aware that people that believe that do exist, for example many of the church groups that work with such "immigrants" advocate for an open door policy. I think they are 1) few in number, 2) not living in the real world, and 3) out of their minds.

Really, are there Congressmen who advocate throwing the doors completely open and not exercising any control on who comes into the country? I mean American politicians; I know there's a lot on the Mexican side of the border who'd love that. $$ sent home from America takes a lot of pressure off them to deal with their own problems.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)