airdvr 201 #101 August 21, 2009 Only people who have a horse in this race are the victim's families. Yes, I think it's wrong especially in light of the hero's welcome he received upon his return home. But...if the families didn't raise enough stink to prevent it...Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 1 #102 August 21, 2009 QuoteOnly people who have a horse in this race are the victim's families. The people with a horse in this race are all terrorism victims and their families, not just past, but also future. In other words, all potential terrorism victims. In other words, you and me. (That would be a failure of the "deterrent" element...) QuoteBut...if the families didn't raise enough stink to prevent it... My understanding is they were told about it virtually at the 11th hour. Not really enough time to mount any kind of meaningful opposition process before it became a fait accomplis. I'm sure that was quite deliberate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #103 August 21, 2009 Firstly many of the families doubt the mans guilt and were pleased that there was to be an appeal. Secondly if the British people have to pay for this man that means they also have a horse in the race, just as the companies that would suffer financial loss if he were not released have a horse in the race. Quite frankly the familys might feel the most but they don't count the most.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 1 #104 August 21, 2009 QuoteFirstly many of the families doubt the mans guilt and were pleased that there was to be an appeal. Secondly if the British people have to pay for this man that means they also have a horse in the race, just as the companies that would suffer financial loss if he were not released have a horse in the race. Quite frankly the familys might feel the most but they don't count the most. A just society is expensive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #105 August 21, 2009 There is no such thing as a just society, just levels of acceptable injusctice.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 1 #106 August 21, 2009 QuoteThere is no such thing as a just society, just levels of acceptable injusctice. Pure rationalization. What that argument illustrates best is this: In all dysfunction, we are each our own best enablers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #107 August 21, 2009 Pure rationalization? Yes. I see being rational as a good thing When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #108 August 21, 2009 Speaking as a Scot, I’m disgusted at the way this whole thing has been handled. The man should not have been released on compassionate grounds, he was not just a terrorist but a mass murderer. I think Macaskill has set a ridiculous precedent here, misguided at best, naïve at least, incompetent in my mind, in his actions. If there is cause to challenge Megrahi’s convictions, and there may well be, these should run the due process. If anyone deserves compassion in this it is the relatives of the victims. As a Scot I can only apologise to them for the behaviour of a government that I won’t be voting for again. Okay, I’ll see you all again in another couple of years….Or when my government embarrasses me enough to come out of hiding.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #109 August 21, 2009 As a side bar; It's worthe remembereing, in this 'so called' war on terror, that there are many responsible for the death of a great number of innocents who will never see the inside of a court room, let alone a prison cell. The families of their victims have probably even less say in the conviction of those guilty. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #110 August 21, 2009 Indeed Shropshire, I couldn't agree more, but we really need to consider this case in isolation. Also consider that this crime happened way before the current 'war on terror'. This man was found guilty of mass murder, his trial in Holland was a farce, and Macaskill visiting him in prison was truly unprecedented. This 'compassionate' release was not judicial, but political, and that's the wrong reason to release anyone, in my opinion. Can you imagine the furore that might surround the early release of say Peter Sutcliffe or Myra Hindley?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #111 August 21, 2009 QuoteThis 'compassionate' release was not judicial, but political, and that's the wrong reason to release anyone, in my opinion. Including the IRA and Loyalists under the Good Friday agreement?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #112 August 21, 2009 Okay, can we settle on 'wrong reasons with reservations'? EG if you are stopping an unwinnable, unending conflict? If the release is part of a wider agreement, a peace deal if you like, if the arrangements are decided upon by due democratic process. Where is the 'agreement' on this one? Quid pro quo, who is gaining what by this man's release. No, I don't think we can draw parallels with the good friday agreement in this instance.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #113 August 21, 2009 I fully agree that there are folks that should never be released(and they should be considered on a case by case basis a NOT be politically motivated (difficult, I know). The lads that killed little James Bulger, for instance - I believe that they are out now ... but a large section of the populate would have had them rot for ever - And there are many such cases. The case for Peter Sutcliffe or Myra Hindley is interesting because I'd say that they are still being held for political reasons - High profile cases, such as these often are, whilst maybe worse, low profile folks are released on license earlier .... um, I'm not sure.... In all honesty, I'm not entirely sure that I know where I stand on this .... but I'm more swayed by Skyrads level headed arguments than I am but the 'string em up by the balls' brigade. . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,822 #114 August 21, 2009 Quote This 'compassionate' release was not judicial, but political, and that's the wrong reason to release anyone, in my opinion. How would Macaskill or his party benefit politically from this?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #115 August 21, 2009 What if the Uk makes millions/billions on oil and gas deals as a result of this gesture, possibly getting the UK out of the recession sooner and creating jobs, then would it then be justified?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #116 August 21, 2009 Wrong type of politic John, A while back Megrahi is talking about appealing his conviction, rumours abound of new possibly embarassing evidence. Macaskill goes to see him in the clink, appeal is abandoned, 'compassionate release' is now the order of the day, and no further mention of the appeal/retrial etc.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #117 August 21, 2009 "What if the Uk makes millions/billions on oil and gas deals as a result of this gesture" Let's not go there again, Skyrad...Besides, I've not been around for a while but I think you'd know my opinion on that one. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #118 August 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote How do you reconcile the argument .... al-Megrahi was convicted on offenses not just against individuals from multiple nations but against the nation. My own reconciliation of this argument would be; The nations concerned have themselves reconciled.... al-Megrahi's continued incarceration an anachronism in that the states concerned have ceased hostilities and resumed normal, even cordial relations... Interesting argument... I'm not sure that reconciliation of states is relevant.... al Megrahi was convicted for his actions not the actions of his state. Other examples of individuals tried/on trial or convicted for their actions.. Mr. Josef Scheungraber was tried and convicted in April for actions while a Nazi officer. The US & Germany have long reconciled...forcibly deported Mr. John Demjanjuk to Germany ... trial for actions as a Nazi guard. The US has excellent relations with the current government of Liberia... Hi Marg, Sorry for the delay. IMO Libya/Lockerbie IS different in that in all other cases some change of regime (whether occurring internally or imposed externally) has had to take place before relations have been modified. In this case the offending regime continues but is claimed to have changed character. My point is that if the regime has been forgiven, then is there any justification for being selective in our forgiveness of individuals in that regime... Particularly when selecting to forgive those in the regime who made policy while not forgiving those who carried out orders under the policies made? It would be akin to pardoning Slobodan Milosevic while keeping Serbian soldiers imprisoned! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 1 #119 August 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteThis 'compassionate' release was not judicial, but political, and that's the wrong reason to release anyone, in my opinion. Including the IRA and Loyalists under the Good Friday agreement? A reasonable question. The parallel is not precise, but I'd roughly equivalize that more as a release/amnesty of combatants in order to effect a peace agreement to end a war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,822 #120 August 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteThis 'compassionate' release was not judicial, but political, and that's the wrong reason to release anyone, in my opinion. Including the IRA and Loyalists under the Good Friday agreement? A reasonable question. The parallel is not precise, but I'd roughly equivalize that more as a release/amnesty of combatants in order to effect a peace agreement to end a war. So Catholic (Christian) terrorists are "combatants" but Islamic terrorists are just ---- terrorists.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 1 #121 August 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThis 'compassionate' release was not judicial, but political, and that's the wrong reason to release anyone, in my opinion. Including the IRA and Loyalists under the Good Friday agreement? A reasonable question. The parallel is not precise, but I'd roughly equivalize that more as a release/amnesty of combatants in order to effect a peace agreement to end a war. So Catholic (Christian) terrorists are "combatants" but Islamic terrorists are just ---- terrorists. I was distinguishing strictly the release of Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi versus treatment of IRA and Loyalists under the Good Friday agreement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,822 #122 August 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThis 'compassionate' release was not judicial, but political, and that's the wrong reason to release anyone, in my opinion. Including the IRA and Loyalists under the Good Friday agreement? A reasonable question. The parallel is not precise, but I'd roughly equivalize that more as a release/amnesty of combatants in order to effect a peace agreement to end a war. So Catholic (Christian) terrorists are "combatants" but Islamic terrorists are just ---- terrorists. I was distinguishing strictly the release of Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi versus treatment of IRA and Loyalists under the Good Friday agreement. Are you now arguing that circumstances having nothing whatever to do with the crime should affect how nicely or harshly the criminals are treated?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #123 August 21, 2009 Sorry, but I don't get your distinction either... would you care to elaborate please? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeflyChile 0 #124 August 21, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Why does your jackass Justice Secretary get to decide for everyone?189 of those killed were Americans. Does this mean that UK justice should apply every time a Brit is murdered in the USA? Quote Do you honestly think the Libyans would do the same with Scottish people in the same circumstances? Is bad behavior by one nation an excuse for bad behavior by another? Unles you live in Chicago and are an Obama friend/supporter, if you muder in the 1st degree, you go to prison for life minimum. I live in Chicago and voted for Obama, and I think that the early release is garbage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #125 August 21, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Why does your jackass Justice Secretary get to decide for everyone?189 of those killed were Americans. Does this mean that UK justice should apply every time a Brit is murdered in the USA? Quote Do you honestly think the Libyans would do the same with Scottish people in the same circumstances? Is bad behavior by one nation an excuse for bad behavior by another? Unles you live in Chicago and are an Obama friend/supporter, if you muder in the 1st degree, you go to prison for life minimum. I live in Chicago and voted for Obama, and I think that the early release is garbage. I know. And most people do. This line had a very specific target. Was not you. marc"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
