Observation Regarding Spirituality

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

Quote

Well, now you're quibbling over the semantics of what he said at first. But he's explained what he meant.

He explained what he meant in the first post, which came along with the comment that says only his type of people are fully human.

"Fully human"? um, no I believe both types are fully human.

As should you, if you believe in only scientifically-verifiable facts.

By any scientifically-verifiable test, both types of people would be human beings. No difference should register at all.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[maadmax 0]

I see spirituality as another means of describing the psychological part of our existence. The laws of science are inadequate to explain the psychological make up of an individual. Psychologists and Psychiatrists are spiritual teachers in a way. But pale in comparison to the True Spiritual teachings provided in the Word of God. Constructing a reality with spiritual Truth produces the fruits of the spirit, failing to do so results in chaos.

[quade 3]

Quote

Psychologists and Psychiatrists are spiritual teachers in a way.

Yes, just like witch doctors.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SpeedRacer 1]

OK, so why should the non-spiritual people be offended by my hypothesis?

I have only postulated that they are un-equipped with the facility to perceive something that they don't even believe to exist in the first place.

So within their cosmology, everything I have said about spirituality is so much bullshit, and they have nothing more with which to concern themselves.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[stoney3434 0]

Thank you speed racer for a concept I now can add to those I have heard and experienced while alive my 63 years... And Ron "is" right about the 60's after jumping bonfire discussions... They went beyond the beer, high tech, sex, and jumping ---but at times today they still do.

It is part of "my nature" to seek growth of my spirritual inner self while accepting that so much will always remain mysterious and abstractual.

I usaully only go right to the wing suit forum,..but the thread subject caught my eye and my seeker nature.

I sum up the spirituality aspect of life by believing that whatever the specific spirtual or religios beliefs,some human beings "Choose" to believe that theri live or lives MATTER beyond just the time we live her in our bodies on earth ,....and some people choose not to believe that...

I choose to believe there is some ultimate truth and creative force and that my life does count and matter beyond what I do or what I leave as a legacy behind me here in life,....AND if I'm wrong,...I'll never know or miss a thing. I have no unpleasant memories of before I was born and therefor I do not fear moving into nothingness IF what I choose to believe IS wrong. Sooo,..my belief allows me to live with a spritual freedom from fear in life (or "of death" )because I for me the eventual ultimate outcome isn't and never has been in any doubt :( Life either counts and matters or it doesn't)

I just wish we all would believe whatever we "choose to believe as individuals ( without the need to be 'told' what we should or shouldn't believe by other 'humans") and not try to convince others that our beliefs are better than any others or try to force or manipulate others to believe in the same way we do. To qoute Kenny Roger's The Gambler: "There'll be plenty of time for counting,..when the game is done" For my spirit and soul ,...life does COUNT ( in some way)

Even so,...I admire those who live good decent lives with stong values and integrity even though they do not believe that there is any life after life and that their life here only matters while we are here... those such as Aynn Rand... The ultimate scientist Einstein, believed that where science ended,.. Spirituality began .... I can live ( and die) with that.

You ALL have a fun,meaningful and great life!

Thanks again, "Stoney" Condor 1: "we eat our dead"

Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

[TomAiello 25]

I think you're spot on.

I'm an atheist. But I've definitely found some very spiritual moments in my life. That's what draws me to jumping, actually.

It's possible to be spiritual without being religious, and vice versa.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[br0k3n 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

To me spirituality is a meaningless concept, that's why I have no interest in it. It's got nothing to do with the fact that science actually explains things and is quite useful; pretty much everything religion isn't.

However, to those in the substance abuse/chemical dependency/mental health profession, both professionals and client/patients, spirituality is an integral aspect of treatment.

From my perspective, my spirit is very self evident to me. To RonD, the same is also probably true. Hence his desire for spiritual exploration, in his case through Christianity.

In JackC's mind, things might be entirely different.


Here's one possibility to consider:

It may well be that some people do not have the same capacity as others for any sort of spiritual experience.

Some people may lack any form of an "Inner Life".

In short, if someone says "I have no soul." it may very well be true. The person could have an intellect that allows them to outwardly function as a human being, but might have little or no capacity for any sort of inner life or spirit or soul (call it what you will).

To such a person, any sort of spiritual efforts would appear to them to be like chasing after pink unicorns. It would be completely and mind-bogglingly meaningless to them, since they don't have a soul to begin with.

Since we are not inside each other's heads, we can never know for sure, until someone invents the Vulcan Mind Meld or something.


It would explain why these arguments never go anywhere. To someone without the capacity for a soul, spirituality in pretty much any form would seem like so much bullshit. To someone who DOES have a soul, it seems so obvious that we have this inner existence, that we might naturally, but incorrectly, believe that all other people feel it as well.

Here we have a classic example of how these woowoo beliefs perpetuate and continue to exist.

What speedracer is doing is creating his own hypothesis which supports his own belief and definition of a “soul”. This then reinforces his belief based on nothing but his own imagination, and requires no evidence.

Now to make the statement “without the capacity for a soul” we first have to identify what this “soul” is and show empirical evidence that this “soul” exists.

Which I don’t think anyone has ever been able to do, so into the I think the “soul” can go into the same box as the Tooth Fairy, Loch Ness Monster, Yeti, Witches, Homeopathic remedies, fortune tellers and gods.

Right where did I put that snake oil???

-----------------------------------------------------------
--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[br0k3n 0]

Quote

OK, so why should the non-spiritual people be offended by my hypothesis?

I have only postulated that they are un-equipped with the facility to perceive something that they don't even believe to exist in the first place..

Maybe have you considered this; we are the ones that are “equipped” with the “facility” to perceive when something is bullshit. You are “un-equipped” with this “facility”.

-----------------------------------------------------------
--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[JackC 0]

Quote

OK, so why should the non-spiritual people be offended by my hypothesis?

Because your hypothesis makes non-spiritual people sound like mentally deficient robots masquerading as human beings.

Quote

I have only postulated that they are un-equipped with the facility to perceive something that they don't even believe to exist in the first place.

Perceive what though? What is spirituality? You need to define the concept before you can figure out if you are equipped to perceive it.

Here are two descriptions of spirituality:

A capacity to experience awe, reverence and gratitude. The ability to see the sacred in the ordinary, to feel the poignancy of life, to know the passion of existence and to give ourselves over to that which is greater than ourselves. ~ Psychology Today

Great, I'm spiritual!

...matters of the spirit, a concept often but not necessarily tied to to a spirit world, a multidimensional reality and one or more deities. Spiritual matters regard humankind's ultimate nature and purpose, not as material biological organisms, but as spirits or energy with an eternal relationship beyond the bodily senses, time and the material world. ~ Wikipedia

Oh wait... no. Spirituality is just a load of unsupported gibberish.

As I see it, the term "spiritual" is so poorly defined that it can mean virtually anything from a mild sense of wonder to a full-on chronic delusional psychosis. So if by "un-equipped with the facility to perceive something" you mean I'm not a delusional nutcase, I'll take that. But if you mean unable to have a sense of wonder, I think you're wrong. The question is, what do you really mean?

[RonD1120 58]

Quote

Quote

Psychologists and Psychiatrists are spiritual teachers in a way.

Yes, just like witch doctors.

BTW, that is the position taken by Scientology.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

Quote

I see spirituality as another means of describing the psychological part of our existence. The laws of science are inadequate to explain the psychological make up of an individual. Psychologists and Psychiatrists are spiritual teachers in a way. But pale in comparison to the True Spiritual teachings provided in the Word of God. Constructing a reality with spiritual Truth produces the fruits of the spirit, failing to do so results in chaos.

The first part of Oswald Chambers, My Utmost for His Highest for this morning as follows:

Quote

July 27th.

THE WAY TO KNOW

"If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine...” John vii. 17.
The golden rule for understanding spiritually is not intellect, but obedience. If a man wants scientific knowledge, intellectual curiosity is his guide; but if he wants insight into what Jesus Christ teaches, he can only get it by obedience. If things are dark to me, then I may be sure there is something I will not do. Intellectual darkness comes through ignorance; spiritual darkness comes because of something I do not intend to obey.

Obedience is the key, metanoia - the Greek concept of changing one's mind - is the beginning process. Christians refer to this as repentance. Natural man is rebellious. The Bible equates rebellion with witchcraft.

I my profession I equate rebellion with arrested maturational development, usually thought of as adolescent or sophomoric. That statement is not meant as a put down, merely the state of the situation as it is. It is what it is.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

Quote

It's possible to be spiritual without being religious, and vice versa.

That is a conceptual belief I have been espousing since the beginning of my recent posts.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

I think you're spot on.

I'm an atheist. But I've definitely found some very spiritual moments in my life. That's what draws me to jumping, actually.

It's possible to be spiritual without being religious, and vice versa.

I disagree. I think you're confusing - and re-defining - "spirituality" with what you're describing really is: sentience, consciousness, self-awareness and the intellectual ability to analyze in the abstract.

Spirituality is supernatural. Sentient consciousness and self-awareness is not.

[RonD1120 58]

Quote

Now to make the statement “without the capacity for a soul” we first have to identify what this “soul” is and show empirical evidence that this “soul” exists.

Which I don’t think anyone has ever been able to do, so into the I think the “soul” can go into the same box as the Tooth Fairy, Loch Ness Monster, Yeti, Witches, Homeopathic remedies, fortune tellers and gods.

FYI, Homeopathic remedies are real and valid and have nothing to do with spiritual beliefs.

Soul has a specific definition. The soul is comprised of the mind, emotions and will. Man is spirit, lives in a body and has a soul.

Does empirical evidence exist for the mind? Is there evidence of emotions? Are people able to make independent decisions?

As for spirit, are you familiar with the French term elan vital?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 0]

I could rebut item-by-item (soul, spirit; etc. versus mind, emotions will, etc.), but I'm just not going to take the time right now.
You're re-defining attributes that exist in the physical world as though they necessarily are attributes of the supernatural world, and vice-versa. They are not. The fact that some people continue, into their adulthood, to imagine - or, if you will, believe - that they are so does not make them any more so.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

What speedracer is doing is creating his own hypothesis which supports his own belief...

Um, don't we all do that, every day?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

Spirituality is supernatural.

Not to me. If that's redefining the term, then, yeah, I guess I am.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JackC 0]

Quote

Quote

Spirituality is supernatural.

Not to me. If that's redefining the term, then, yeah, I guess I am.

And that's the problem. The term spirituality is not defined in any coherent way so when X person says they're spiritual, the rest of the planet has no idea what they mean by it. It could be a mild sense of secular awe at the universe, or a full on rature-ready biblical lunacy.

[TomAiello 25]

Why not define the term for yourself, and not worry about how other people define it for them?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[RonD1120 58]

Quote

I could rebut item-by-item (soul, spirit; etc. versus mind, emotions will, etc.), but I'm just not going to take the time right now.
You're re-defining attributes that exist in the physical world as though they necessarily are attributes of the supernatural world, and vice-versa. They are not. The fact that some people continue, into their adulthood, to imagine - or, if you will, believe - that they are so does not make them any more so.

Over these past few weeks I have come to the conclusion that you believe you have reached the level of development where you know all there is to know. There is nothing left for you. You have conquered universal knowledge.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[JackC 0]

Quote

Why not define the term for yourself, and not worry about how other people define it for them?

That's fine but if you want to talk about something, you need to know what the hell it is we're supposed to be talking about, otherwise it's just gibberish. RonD tells us that all psychological treatment facilities employ spiritual components to their programs. Now what does that mean? Would it be acceptable to merely raise a metaphorical eyebrow at the complexity of the universe to fulfil the spiritual aspect of the treatment, or would you need to perform a voodoo chicken dance at midnight covered in pigs blood while chanting the Lords Prayer backwards? That information might be important to someone thinking of dabbling in a bit of head shrinking.

[TomAiello 25]

Definitely the voodoo chicken dance.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[br0k3n 0]

Quote

FYI, Homeopathic remedies are real

slightly off topic, but no there not. Well i suppose the placebo effect has been demonstrated to be real so maybe you are correct.

Quote

Does empirical evidence exist for the mind?

Yes

Quote

Is there evidence of emotions

Yes

Quote

As for spirit, are you familiar with the French term elan vital?

I wasnt until i just read up on it, and you believe that "Vital Force" is the soul??

-----------------------------------------------------------
--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

I think you're spot on.

I'm an atheist. But I've definitely found some very spiritual moments in my life. That's what draws me to jumping, actually.

It's possible to be spiritual without being religious, and vice versa.

I absolutely agree.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

I could rebut item-by-item (soul, spirit; etc. versus mind, emotions will, etc.), but I'm just not going to take the time right now.
You're re-defining attributes that exist in the physical world as though they necessarily are attributes of the supernatural world, and vice-versa. They are not. The fact that some people continue, into their adulthood, to imagine - or, if you will, believe - that they are so does not make them any more so.

Over these past few weeks I have come to the conclusion that you believe you have reached the level of development where you know all there is to know. There is nothing left for you. You have conquered universal knowledge.

And over these past few weeks I have come to the conclusion - observation, in fact - that when the going gets tough, you get ad hominem against the messenger. Just like this. As I replied in earlier threads where you pulled that: nice try; I'm not playing your game. Let's stick to playing the ball, and not the player.