The Roman Road for Christian Skydivers

[georgerussia 0]

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However, it doesn't change the fact that they are helping others as a means to the end of saving themselves. They still are, although in a sick way, helping others in a method that many people, including myself, value. Thus, removing them from the picture would still remove their value to the world, even though their ends are self-interested.

What about someone like Lawrocket, then, who helps other people for the purposes of benefitting himself? His end is still far apart from his means.

So the question really is how many of those people do it solely because they believe they would go to Hell if they do not. Then we need to take a look what else those people do which they believe they would go to Hell if they do not - bashing homosexuals? murdering people who do not share their beliefs? trying to enforce others to act according to their beliefs? Then we will get a complete picture, and understand whether they are adding value to the world, or not.

It is actually not only Christians - what about Mr. Madoff who was pretty famous because of his contributions? If you look only on this side, he would be a very good guy, wouldn't he?

And if you look on Scandinavian countries (which are generally non-believing), the number of charitable contributions there is pretty significant, so you do not have to be Christian to donate.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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No. I am sharing personal testimony of how the Word of God became truth in my life. I believe that truth is available to all who seek it.

Such a testimony would be no different as someone testifying that they cured cancer by drinking urine (yes, some do). They also truly believe they found The Cure, and wonder why people spend time and money on chemo and similar things.

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Please understand, I am not asking you to come to my mountain. I am saying that God has a mountain unique to you, if you want to go there.

And this is where you're wrong. You have no proof beyond the reasonable doubt that there is a mountain, or there is God. All you have is your personal feelings, which again makes you no different from the one who would tell a cancer patient that "the cure" is there, and has helped others, but if you don't want it - it's your choice.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[kallend 1,623]

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No. I am sharing personal testimony of how the Word of God became truth in my life. I believe that truth is available to all who seek it.

Such a testimony would be no different as someone testifying that they cured cancer by drinking urine (yes, some do). They also truly believe they found The Cure, and wonder why people spend time and money on chemo and similar things.

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Please understand, I am not asking you to come to my mountain. I am saying that God has a mountain unique to you, if you want to go there.

And this is where you're wrong. You have no proof beyond the reasonable doubt that there is a mountain, or there is God.

"Reasonable doubt"? There is no objective evidence AT ALL. None.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[chasteh 0]

>So the question really is how many of those people do it solely because they believe they would go to Hell if they do not.

Right. Does self-interest play in their decision making? Maybe. Maybe not. (Probably)

>Then we will get a complete picture, and understand whether they are adding value to the world, or not.

You mean, we will see if they are adding to the world by comparing the "good" things that they do to the "bad" things that they do? Do you have any information comparing these?

>t is actually not only Christians - what about Mr. Madoff who was pretty famous because of his contributions?

He would be both capable of providing great benefit to people and on another side providing great damage to them. I don't see how "being Bernie Madoff" compells people worldwide to contribute to the world around them like Christianity does. (I will admit Christianity is responsible for some deplorable acts, as are other things that we cherish in this society- like wealth. Yet wealth surely isn't at the top of the list in terms of "bad" factors, as Christianity is here)

>And if you look on Scandinavian countries (which are generally non-believing), the number of charitable contributions there is pretty significant, so you do not have to be Christian to donate.

Heh. Wait, isn't Norway like 80% Christian? (85% Church of Norway - Lutheran Christians)

Sweden - 87%

Finland - 82%

[kallend 1,623]

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>So the question really is how many of those people do it solely because they believe they would go to Hell if they do not.

Right. Does self-interest play in their decision making? Maybe. Maybe not. (Probably)

>Then we will get a complete picture, and understand whether they are adding value to the world, or not.

You mean, we will see if they are adding to the world by comparing the "good" things that they do to the "bad" things that they do? Do you have any information comparing these?

>t is actually not only Christians - what about Mr. Madoff who was pretty famous because of his contributions?

He would be both capable of providing great benefit to people and on another side providing great damage to them. I don't see how "being Bernie Madoff" compells people worldwide to contribute to the world around them like Christianity does. (I will admit Christianity is responsible for some deplorable acts, as are other things that we cherish in this society- like wealth. Yet wealth surely isn't at the top of the list in terms of "bad" factors, as Christianity is here)

>And if you look on Scandinavian countries (which are generally non-believing), the number of charitable contributions there is pretty significant, so you do not have to be Christian to donate.

Heh. Wait, isn't Norway like 80% Christian? (85% Church of Norway - Lutheran Christians)

Sweden - 87%

Finland - 82%

Oh sure - and according to the Anglican Church I'm one of them due to my baptism at age 3 months.

In reality http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=1835


also see www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0823-03.htm

% that attends church at least once a week:
Nigeria 89 Ireland 84* Philippines 68 N. Ireland 58* Puerto Rico 52 South Africa 56 Poland 55 Portugal 47* Slovakia 47 Mexico 46 Italy 45* Dominican Republic 44 Belgium 44* U.S.A. 44 Turkey 43 Peru 43 India 42 Canada 38* Brazil 36 Netherlands 35*

Venezuela 31 Uruguay 31 Austria 30* Chile 25 Argentina 25 Britain 27* Spain 25 Solvenia 22 Croatia 22 Hungary 21* France 21* Romania 20* South Korea 14 Switzerland 16 Australia 16 Lithuania 16 W. Germany 14 Czech Republic 14* Bulgaria 10* Ukraine 10

Taiwan 11 Moldova 10 Georgia 10 China 9 Armenia 8 Azerbaijan 6 Serbia 7 Montenegro 7 Belarus 6 Latvia 5 Denmark 5* Norway 5 East Germany 5 Sweden 4 Iceland 4* Finland 4 Estonia 4 Japan 3 Russia 2

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tkhayes 125]

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Cure is not a goal, treatment is.

a fundamentally incorrect statement.

Again, basing any hypothesis on that would then also be incorrect.

I think you are making a HUGE assumption by stating that the goal of mental health is not a 'cure'. hundreds of mental health professionals would largely disagree with you.

treatments eventually lead to cures... just because we are not there today is some ares does not mean that they are not striving for a cure.

treatment is the actual PROCESS, cure is still the goal....

[chasteh 0]

>a fundamentally incorrect statement

Actually, that would depend on what kind of psychologist, say, you were speaking to. Are they a developmentalist? Is their focus drugs and behavior? Are they psychoanalysts? Clinical psychologists? Social workers?

You are likely to find disagreements among those professionals. It turns out, that if you were to ask a clinical psychologist or a social worker, they would often say that treatment is the goal.

Is a parent neglecting the child? Lets remedy it. Is the person suffering from schizophrenia? Lets give them a drug to treat it.

BL: It depends on who you ask amongst certified industry professionals, as well as w hat the disorder (disfunction) is.

[tkhayes 125]

so ONCE AGAIN, you cannot definitively state that mental health as an industry or profession is NOT seeking a cure.....only treatment.

So therefore his statement is fundamentally INCORRECT.

I stand with my statement. I find it hard to believe that as a professional, ANYONE would stand up and say "We are not seeking a cure - only treatment"

[chasteh 0]

Neat.

So in the end, you do not need to be a Christian to be a charitable person. That much has been established. (A while back)

The question remains, how many charitable Christians would we lose were Christianity to be non existent (say, tomarrow)? And would that end up in less Charitability or destruction (overall)?

[chasteh 0]

What about situations where a person experiences brain damage? Can you reasonable expect to cure brain damage, or can you only treat that?

What about people with savant syndrome? Is Psychology there to both treat and cure that, as well? There are some who would say that savant syndrome is not something we should cure.

It depends on the professional and the disorder, it appears.

>I find it hard to believe that as a professional, ANYONE would stand up and say "We are not seeking a cure - only treatment

Your profile says DZO, not Person with Doctorate in a field of Psychology, my bad.

[tkhayes 125]

and your profile says nothing of the same - so I guess that we are BOTH full of shit then.

My neurosurgeon treated my broken neck with a 'cure'. the cure was a spinal fusion. some would say, well that is a 'treatment', since now I have a fused spine - it cannot be ever 'cured'

But somewhere out there, someone is working right now, on a CURE for spinal fusion, another procedure to either fix it, replace it, or undo it to its natural state.

The goal is a CURE, not just treatment. And I expect my neurosurgeon is very happy with the 'cure' he provided me - I know I am.

Same in the mental health profession. They are searching for cures, via treatments.

I googled mental health cures and other searches of 'cures' versus 'treatments'

I found nothing to support that statement that the mental health profession is not trying to find 'cures' for things.

Now if you can find that , then post it,

otherwise, my profile and whatever it states is not up for discussion here.

my statement stands

ALL, if not, MOST medical professions are searching for CURES, not just TREATMENTS. treatment is the path to a cure. Stating that a cure is not the goal is fundamentally incorrect.

now prove me otherwise.

[chasteh 0]

>I find it hard to believe that as a professional, ANYONE would stand up and say "We are not seeking a cure - only treatment"

Search Savant Syndrome and read about it.

>The goal is a CURE, not just treatment. And I expect my neurosurgeon is very happy with the 'cure' he provided me - I know I am

Excellent. Is that a cure? It sucks that whatever happened to you did, but I have a hard time believing you are entirely satisfied with it. I know I am not entirely satisfied with the state of my left shoulder and the end of its humerous. It seems like you and I have really great treatments, but were not exactly cured.

>I found nothing to support that statement that the mental health profession is not trying to find 'cures' for things.

Is that my thesis?

>ALL, if not, MOST medical professions are searching for CURES, not just TREATMENTS.

Physical therapists. Pharm Doctors.

So now we have most medical professions searching for cures, not just treatments.

I can agree with that.

edit: Maybe RonD should have said something about the effectiveness of these searches. The Mental Health profession hasn't made much headway relative to other health fields.

[RonD1120 58]

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- it's your choice.

That is what I have been saying from the beginning. It is your choice.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

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"Reasonable doubt"? There is no objective evidence AT ALL. None.

I offer personal testimony. It does not bother me if you are not interested. It is your choice.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[JackC 0]

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"Reasonable doubt"? There is no objective evidence AT ALL. None.

I offer personal testimony. It does not bother me if you are not interested. It is your choice.

There's a retired diplomat in Nigeria who wants to get $67 million out of the country and needs your bank account details help. It's your choice.

Some things need evidence before they can be believed.

[RonD1120 58]

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Cure is not a goal, treatment is.

a fundamentally incorrect statement.

Again, basing any hypothesis on that would then also be incorrect.

I think you are making a HUGE assumption by stating that the goal of mental health is not a 'cure'. hundreds of mental health professionals would largely disagree with you.

treatments eventually lead to cures... just because we are not there today is some ares does not mean that they are not striving for a cure.

treatment is the actual PROCESS, cure is still the goal....

I am speaking from personal experience in the field. Research grants focus on cures; professionals may debate cure possibilities and so on. In the trenches, the application of therapy is to stabilize the patient/client through treatment. I have been employed in both private for profit and non-profit treatment facilities.

In the former, the goal is to obtain payment for treatment stay from the insurance company. They demand the shortest time possible for stabilization. In the latter, here in FL, the main focus is on the paperwork required by DCF and the client providers i.e., Department of Corrections and U.S. Probation Office.

I have written hundreds of treatment plans, never a cure plan. We have guidelines to word them to be in compliance with the auditors. We constantly reminded each other to remember the "3 P's" of treatment. Namely, paperwork has priority over people.

We stabilize and discharge with a continuing treatment plan which generally outlines management of the specific illness through Rx medication, continued counseling, support groups. A spiritual component is always encouraged.

We give lip service to the idea of working ourselves out of a job knowing it is not possible. Why? We know that people will fight for their limitations. We worry about funding, not people.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 1,623]

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"Reasonable doubt"? There is no objective evidence AT ALL. None.

I offer personal testimony. It does not bother me if you are not interested. It is your choice.

Out of the infinite number of things with ZERO evidence in support that I could choose to believe in, why should I choose your fantasy?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 58]

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I stand with my statement. I find it hard to believe that as a professional, ANYONE would stand up and say "We are not seeking a cure - only treatment"

I will. See my previous post. Call me a whistle blower. The dirty little secret in the field is that it is just a business, people are product. Avoid burnout by not becoming personally involved with the patient/client. Maintain professional distance not only because it is best for the patient/client but it helps to insulate the professional from client centered emotional stress. The main thing, don't get behind in your paperwork, learn creative charting techniques that will pass audit.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

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why should I choose your fantasy?

I don't know what you are looking for. In my case, I became hopeless. I needed help to go on. I not only received love, hope and help, I have been blessed beyond what I imagined. That's all I know. Go have fun.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[chasteh 0]

>Namely, paperwork has priority over people.

Isn't that amazing? You are there to help people and all that can be said is that they want you to get paperwork done and worry about patients later.

Gotta love it.

[gjhdiver 0]

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Did you watch the video? Cronkite states it in his own words in opposition to Pat Robertson.

I did, that's why it's laughable.

Watching people arguing about religion is like watching two five year olds arguing about who has the best imaginary friend.

[chasteh 0]

That reminds me of a book I just might write in the future about how children adopt their own philosophical perspectives in playgrounds, where they often pick and choose between what their parents say and what others say about issues - they even use them when it comes to fighting over a "toy" or whether "God" is "real."

I want to call it: Playground logic.

[billvon 2,396]

>I offer personal testimony.

And I have no doubt that it your experience is valid. But I also have no doubt that the people who have turned their lives around through belief in Allah, or in Buddhism, or in their husbands or wives, have experiences that are any less valid.

To me, the details of the belief are unimportant, as are the names people call them by. What IS important is how it affects their lives. I think that gets lost too often in the arguing over religious details.

[chasteh 0]

>What IS important is how it affects their lives. I think that gets lost too often in the arguing over religious details.

Mmmm yea it is important, but unfortunately the game is played so that what is postulated in the religious texts is said to be the truth.

Also, if the religious details weren't important and their tenants considered truths, then it would be much harder to achieve the security and fulfillment that comes by accepting those tenants.

[RonD1120 58]

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>I offer personal testimony.

And I have no doubt that it your experience is valid. But I also have no doubt that the people who have turned their lives around through belief in Allah, or in Buddhism, or in their husbands or wives, have experiences that are any less valid.

To me, the details of the belief are unimportant, as are the names people call them by. What IS important is how it affects their lives. I think that gets lost too often in the arguing over religious details.

From a sociological point of view amen, amen and amen.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.