The Roman Road for Christian Skydivers

chasteh · July 22, 2009

>it is all bunk, I wish you would put your energy to trying to solve the immediate problems of the world, hunger, education, healthcare, instead of worshipping a deity,

Overboard. Youll find Christians are some of the most giving people in the world, and among American conservatives and liberals, they are most likely to do something to solve the immediate problems of the world, like hunger, education, healthcare, etc.

RonD- remember that crazy rant you and I had on that crazy thread you and your christian friends made last time? Yep. I'm helping on this one.

"You mean, there is a rational voice behind that Chasteh guys anyways?"

I guess that when we get rid of the Christians, we will also be getting rid of the Christian childrens fund, Christian Aid, Generousgiving.org, Christians rebuild, and so on.

tkhayes · July 22, 2009

there are plenty of NON- Christians that are giving people. There are lots of atheists that help to reduce poverty.

along with all those groups we would also get rid of lots of Christian-based HATE groups that exist in the world, and all the bad things that go with the so-called good Christians, like groping young boys in church......

And there are plenty of non-secular charities that do the same work that these 'Christian' groups do.

Again my point is that being Christian does not make you a good person.

Being a good person makes you a good person. With or without the faith, you can still be good, do good, lead a good life, etc

JackC · July 22, 2009

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It's not news that religion can be abused.

No but faith, the ability to hold a belief without any supporting evidence, makes the religious particularly easy targets.

chasteh · July 22, 2009

>there are plenty of NON- Christians that are giving people. There are lots of atheists that help to reduce poverty.

Fantastic. However, that doesn't change your statement about how they don't work to make the world a better place. Oops!

>along with all those groups we would also get rid of lots of Christian-based HATE groups that exist in the world

Maybe we could get rid of all the non-christian hate groups in the world too. The Christian here is guilty of believing things in a dogmatic light, and following others based on the dogmatism. This happens in plenty of other non-Christian methods as well. Would you point the finger at them as well, or is your post only intended as an Anti-Christian rant?

>and all the bad things that go with the so-called good Christians, like groping young boys in church......

Why don't we do the same to all the pedophiles that exist in the world? Sex offenders? Rapists?
You have a point, but the point is something that isn't exclusive to christianity. Sorry. Perhaps that might indicate there is room for "Good Christians" to ease up on some of the inferences they made about the "Good God's" instructions. (Like all of their members to marry, have children, or even be homosexual. Perhaps that is where the blame lies. It, however, isn't for Christianity as a whole. Progressive christians believe far different things (that are consistent with the Bible) that the Christian coalition or Televangelists don't allow.)

>And there are plenty of non-secular charities that do the same work that these 'Christian' groups do.

Yep. Getting rid of Christianity, though, would eliminate alot of the cause that exists in the world for helping others. How many of the 2.1 Billion Christians on this planet would stop helping others? Probably more than the number who are interested in killing others or destroying others lives.

>Again my point is that being Christian does not make you a good person.
Really? It looked quite a bit like you were trying to accuse Christians of being bad people for not helping the world as you saw fit.

"it is all bunk, I wish you would put your energy to trying to solve the immediate problems of the world, hunger, education, healthcare, instead of worshipping a deity,"

>Being a good person makes you a good person. With or without the faith, you can still be good, do good, lead a good life, etc

Absolutely. Well, of course, we still need to define what "good" is, who dictates what "good" is (if there is such a thing as "good" in actuality) and what the consequences are, if there are any.

georgerussia · July 22, 2009

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The people that study Biblical prophecy use the term. All the prophecies have been fulfilled except those relating to the end times.

Just to make it clear, no "prophecy" specified in the Bible was fulfilled beyond the reasonable doubt.

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The key word is generation. No one knows the length of that term. In Biblical study it can mean one life time, 100 years, or an era.

So basically you're admitting that your 'last days' is meaningless term, which means "this will happen in some time in future, which may be a day, a year, or a billion years". If this is correct, I'd say it is pretty meaningless information, which has no practical purpose at all.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

georgerussia · July 22, 2009

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In my case I studied witchcraft, spiritism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Carlos Castaneda, astrology, numerology, Eckankar, et.al. I received a spiritual epiphany when I was stranded alone in the Sierra Nevada Mountains and the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, "Why don't you try Jesus? You've tried everything else."

And now if you involve some logic you'll understand this does not mean anything to anyone but you. Your argument is no different than someone telling the story how aliens kidnapped her and used her sexually, so now everyone should accept as a fact that aliens exist and do those things.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

georgerussia · July 22, 2009

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Yep. Getting rid of Christianity, though, would eliminate alot of the cause that exists in the world for helping others. How many of the 2.1 Billion Christians on this planet would stop helping others?

So you're saying that Christians only help others because they want some benefits for themselves in afterlife? And once you remove those beliefs, then a lot of them would stop helping others?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

chasteh · July 22, 2009

>So you're saying that Christians only help others because they want some benefits for themselves in afterlife?

Not all of them, but a majority, if not most.
It also could be for fear of going to hell for not helping others. It could also be because they just want to help other people to help them, without ulterior motives.

>And once you remove those beliefs, then a lot of them would stop helping others?

Yep.

stevebabin · July 22, 2009

Ron,
Have you been sipping Koolaid with Bill Cole?
The one thing, that all the people in history that have predicted the "end times" have in common is that so far every single one of them have been wrong.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3031781;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

georgerussia · July 22, 2009

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Not all of them, but a majority, if not most.
It also could be for fear of going to hell for not helping others. It could also be because they just want to help other people to help them, without ulterior motives.

>And once you remove those beliefs, then a lot of them would stop helping others?

Yep.

Then it seems like vast majority of Christians are just selfish people, who help others not because they "find spirituality" or have some high moral values, but because of selfish desire of saving themselves from hell.

I would definitely stick with atheists then. At least they help people not because they're scared to suffer some consequences in afterlife if they do not to.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

chasteh · July 22, 2009

>Then it seems like vast majority of Christians are just selfish people, who help others not because they "find spirituality" or have some high moral values, but because of selfish desire of saving themselves from hell.

For the purposes of illustrating my point in this thread, you would be correct of the percentage we are discussing. Of course I think there are many christians who are altruistic.

However, it doesn't change the fact that they are helping others as a means to the end of saving themselves. They still are, although in a sick way, helping others in a method that many people, including myself, value. Thus, removing them from the picture would still remove their value to the world, even though their ends are self-interested.

>I would definitely stick with atheists then. At least they help people not because they're scared to suffer some consequences in afterlife if they do not to.

What about someone like Lawrocket, then, who helps other people for the purposes of benefitting himself? His end is still far apart from his means.

Would you rather stick with someone who benefits others for the purpose of benefitting others? What if sticking with the self-interested ends resulted in greater benefit to others than strict altruism did?

masterblaster72 · July 23, 2009

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What about someone like Lawrocket, then, who helps other people for the purposes of benefitting himself?

That would be called "working to make a living."

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

chasteh · July 23, 2009

That would be a misunderstanding.

In another thread Lawrocket attempted to combine self-interest and altruism. We are not discussing his career here. Also, please do not assume that being a lawyer means that you are helping people.

He helps people because he wants to, because it makes him feel good. He helps people for the purposes of achieving a self-interested goal, not for the purposes of helping others. Just like the Christian often helps others for the purposes of meeting a self-interested goal of not going to hell, as opposed to just helping others.

If we can make a claim against Christians for helping others to save their own ass, maybe we can also make a claim against self interest in general being a motivator for helping others.

lawrocket · July 23, 2009

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In another thread Lawrocket attempted to combine self-interest and altruism.

Yes, because I see a distinct difference between "self interest" and selfishness.

Nearly all perform altruistic acts because of some benefit they receive, whether that benefit is financial (tax benefit), publicity ("he is such a nice person") or simply the personal feeling of satisfaction that one receives by doing something that he or she feels is morally good.

I readily admit that I am no saint. I do things for the latter reason - the satisfaction and happiness that it brings me. Not the lauding that I get from others - that is hollow to me. Not for the tax benefit - my donations are typically a lot of smaller cash donations (under $300-$400) for which I am so disorganized as to lose receipts of payment.

But there is self-interest. I want to feel good about myself. Others want other people to feel good about them (Madoff was a prized philanthropist.)

That's all I was saying.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

chasteh · July 23, 2009

>Nearly all perform altruistic acts because of some benefit they receive,

You just don't get it, do you? The definition of altruism is expicitly incompatible with selfishness.

> I readily admit that I am no saint. I do things for the latter reason - the satisfaction and happiness that it brings me. Not the lauding that I get from others - that is hollow to me.

And the world thanks you for your contribution. However, your ends are selfish, and your means are not. Still selfish. Shit.

>That's all I was saying.

Yep. Got it. You just have to rewrite the definition of altruism in order to use it the way you have, considering that altruism is the polar opposite of egoism.

>Madoff was a prized philanthropist

As are Bill Gates and other absurdly wealthy individuals.

Andy9o8 · July 23, 2009

You're just busting his balls for the sake of busting his balls. I hope he doesn't get sucked into arguing with you further.

RonD1120 · July 23, 2009

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people kill themselves for a lot of reasons, not because they failed to 'find spirituality'. Lots of people have killed themselves (and their families and others) BECAUSE of their belief in some 'god'

Admire your desire to solve the worlds problems through Christianity, but show me some numbers that it is actually working. I expect that people 'with or without' faith, still kill themselves.

Faith will not cure manic depression. Your counseling might help, but ultimately, that person might actually need MEDICATION......

bully for the helping skydivers part though - I just disagree with your methods. Please do not ever approach me with a Christian solution to my problems.

I have helped and counseled MANY people at Skydive City over the years. I just do it with a more practical approach, jobs, education, mental help, whatever. For every solution that you might have using faith, I can come up with a practical solution that has nothing to do with faith.

Your post demonostrates a lack of understanding regarding the mental health field. I wouldn't expect you to know specifics, not your field. First, the medical model for psychiatric care has a primary purpose of making the patient feel better. Cure is not a goal, treatment is. Therefore, spiritual counseling has equal footing with other counseling approaches. Second, ethical best practice requires the counselor to go with the client/patient not to make the client/patient go with the counselor. This practice is referred to as eclectic.