A Canadian experience with Canadian health-care

[StreetScooby 5]

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Can you provide me a reference so I can read up on that? Thanks!

The Fed is looking at imposing more costs at the state level.

Governors Fear Medicaid Costs in Health Plan
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/20/health/policy/20health.html?_r=1&hp

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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Blessing? My fucking ass. It was hard fucking work and sacrifice.

+1

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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You should also see the letter I got from FDT.

Who is FDT?

We are all engines of karma

[Andy9o8 0]

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You should also see the letter I got from FDT.

Who is FDT?

I don't have Warped's secret decoder ring, but I'm guessing from context it's Fred D. Thompson.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Is the proposal to fund this new healthcare plan out of something other than federal income tax revenues?

Because if not, then that's the relevant taxation to discuss, isn't it?

Perhaps I've missed a proposal that would pay for this out of some other tax scheme. Can you provide me a reference so I can read up on that? Thanks!

I was sent petitions a month or so back that wanted to pay for it via a snack tax. Given the history of lotto and cig taxes, I declined to participate.

To be precise, the funding seems to center on the deductability of premiums. Right now, my company pays 75%, I pay the remaining 25% on a pre tax basis. Individuals buying health care pay post tax. Outside of the recession relief bills in effect for now, so do the unemployed using COBRA. Hardly fair.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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i am not sure that I have ever seen a case where a Canadian Province sent someone to the USA for treatment and paid the bill...

More Ontarians seeking U.S. medical care

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[mnealtx 0]

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At least in Canada, they are delivering HEALTHCARE - they are not debating INSURANCE.

And they can't afford it anymore, which is why the ARCHITECT of the current system is pushing for private insurance.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 124]

5799 cases out of 30 million people - wow! that is some measure of the failure of a system...... almost 2/100ths of a percent......

I wonder how many people DIED in the USA because they never got ANY treatment for chronic conditions or were refused the procedures by their insurance companies.....

[tkhayes 124]

And Americans cannot afford INSURANCE anymore, which is why the architects of the systems are pushing for universal healthcare......

[mnealtx 0]

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And Americans cannot afford INSURANCE anymore, which is why the architects of the systems are pushing for universal healthcare......

The same people that ALREADY have an insurance system that's going broke... GREAT idea, there.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 124]

better idea, let's have every man for himself, bankruptcies, our health in the hands of NYSE investors, and a 3rd world system where only the rich can afford health care - even better idea.....

[mnealtx 0]

have a tissue.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lawrocket 3]

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And Americans cannot afford INSURANCE anymore, which is why the architects of the systems are pushing for universal healthcare......

Nobody seems to complain about the care received. I take it that you, tk, are generally satisfied with the care received.

The debate is over cost and payment. People seem to be of the belief that health can can be made affordable for all. Okay. There are a couple of ways of doing this:
(1) by taxing the living hell out of employers, the rich, and other wealthy non-congresspersons, meaning that healthcare is no less expensive;
(2) by reducing the quality or rationing the availability; or
(3) by eliminating inefficiency in payment - getting rid of the back office, codings, etc.

The push for universal health care has NOTHING to do with the quality of care provided. It has to do with the cost. The government thinks that it can provide an inexpensive alternative. It turns out that the government only provides an "inexpensive" alternative by making it more expensive on other segments of the population.

They've figured out that they cannot make it more efficient or cost less and offer the same quality of service and rationing availability. So they are instead proposing massive taxes on the rich.

This means, yes, they cannot control costs with what they are trying to do. Nobody would have been able to afford this care except the rich.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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5799 cases out of 30 million people - wow! that is some measure of the failure of a system...... almost 2/100ths of a percent......

When you are talking about life and death situations 2/100ths of a percent IS a non-trivial percentage.

America seemed to think that on Sept 11, 2001 3000 deaths out of *300* million people was a pretty significant loss.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[jcd11235 0]

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Is the proposal to fund this new healthcare plan out of something other than federal income tax revenues?

Currently, government supplied healthcare, such as Medicaid, is funded partially by the states. Your federal income tax argument is intellectually dishonest.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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Lots of people aren't paying these taxes--they're making no contribution to the funding of this (or most other federal) program.

Bullshit. Most of such programs are state funded in part or in full. If people are paying sales taxes, they're contributing.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Bolas 5]

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Congrats on the new baby Andy!

My son fell off his bike, we thought he broke his arm. That cost over $5000. Just for the xrays, a few tests, we spent less than 4 hours in the ER. So now I owe the local hospital 5k. My daughter got hit with a baseball in the face, and it broke her nose. That was just over $7k. Two little things, and now we are in debt over $12,000. My wife is now in the Coast Guard, it seems the military are the only ones hiring now. ....

So the story has somewhat of a happy ending...we are good to go now....but I still owe all that money to the hospital. I'll get it taken care of, it'll take a while. A few Christmas's might be a little "light". But I'll get it paid off.

You do know why those two procedures were so expensive, right?

Because the hospital has to make up for:
* Medicare/Medicaid paying much less
* People with no money and not covered by anything
* People with a little money that pay a reduced ammount
* People who can pay but skip out on their bill

Because you were honest, had the ability to pay, and sacrificed to pay that bill, you got to carry all those others that didn't.

Because they didn't (or wouldn't pay) you had to pay more.

Do you see why people object to this?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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At NO point did the thought of "How am I going to pay for all this" even entered my mind. Money was not a factor in making any medical decision for my child's health. I cannot imagine having to pick between massive debt, and a series of tests that could prevent serious health problems.

I cannot imagine the hospital telling us that we had to drive to another location to give birth, because our insurance company didn't "like" that hospital.

I cannot imagine having to decide between food or overpriced medication.

If your kid is sick, You do what it takes to get them well. Fuck the costs. Make the sacrifices. Worry about that shit later.

Or like Lawrocket said, have insurance.

Gee, sorry Timmy, no chemo for you cuz we can't afford it. Go play your Wii on the 40" flatscreen.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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I will fully support a non government option, if it will cover EVERYBODY.

No private company has the power to force things on people - so if you want everyone to have it, even if they don't want it, that's you're only choice. I lean towards the option of letting people make their own decisions.

There's another reason no company would do it.

It doesn't make economic sense.

There isn't enough of a base of people to buy it at a resonable enough price to fund all those that that would use it. They'd lose billions.

(Few year old info, may have changed)
Sorta like in FL all insurance on houses east of the interstate on the ocean side and west of the interstate on the gulf side are all underwritten by the state as the private companies will not insure them as they could not figure out how to survive all the hurricane claims and charge an amount people would still be willing to pay. To help pay for it, every house insurance policy ANYWHERE in the state has a tax that helps fund it.

When they had a bad hurricane season they were talking about raising it again to pay for rebuild and repairs.

One guy that lived in the middle of the state said it best, "I'd love to live out by the coast or on the beach. But I can't afford it. Why am I subsidising those that choose to?"

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[riddler 0]

Couple of points.

First, "infant jaundice" - it's a new cash cow in the western medical world of child delivery. Statistics show that more than half of all babies born have jaundice, but when the doctors tell you in the delivery room, they make it sound like a life-threatening disease, because there's a statistically insignificant chance of permanent damage to your baby. Money, money, money. Both of my children were born and home and both had jaundice. It makes sense when you consider that their livers aren't done growing yet. In a hospital, you may pay an extra $500 for the doctors to stick your kid (and half of all the other kids) under a french-fry lamp. For exactly zero dollars, my midwife asked me to give both of our children daily sunbaths. And that was that. It's just one example of everything that's wrong with health care in the good ol' U$A.

Second, I've spent a little time in a lot of other countries, and in my experience, unless you are in a completely impoverished country, there is absolutely nothing wrong with socialized medicine. The doctors are good, the prescriptions are cheap, there is little or no waiting, and no one worries about the cost of anything except medicine (and even that isn't bad).

Compare this to private health care in the US: the doctors are good, prescriptions are outrageously expensive, waiting times are horrendous, and any visit to the hospital has you wondering whether you are going to die first or go bankrupt first. Why are we afraid of socialized medicine? The only answer I can think of is that Americans are afraid of the word "socialist". We're definitely not afraid to spend trillions of dollars killing Iraqis because Bush lied, so I don't think we can say we're really that afraid of the cost of health care for our own people.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Andy9o8 0]

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The only answer I can think of is that Americans are afraid of the word "socialist".

Absolutely! To many Americans, "socialism!!" is synonymous with "blasphemy!!". All emotion and dogma; precious little independent reasoning. Invoke the word, and further discussion is foreclosed.

[riddler 0]

Next time my house is on fire, I'm going to stand at the front door with a shotgun, and keep those damn socialist firefighters off my property

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[FallingOsh 0]

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Second, I've spent a little time in a lot of other countries, and in my experience, unless you are in a completely impoverished country, there is absolutely nothing wrong with socialized medicine. The doctors are good, the prescriptions are cheap, there is little or no waiting, and no one worries about the cost of anything except medicine (and even that isn't bad).

How much are people taxed in those countries? Does everyone in the population pay taxes or are 40% exempt? Does a small percentage pay for it while everyone reaps the benefits?

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Compare this to private health care in the US: the doctors are good, prescriptions are outrageously expensive,

Not if you have insurance.

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waiting times are horrendous,

Depends on where you go. Never been a big issue for me, especially in the event of a major emergency. Do you think universal health care would change wait times? Explain how increasing the amount of patients will do that.

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and any visit to the hospital has you wondering whether you are going to die first or go bankrupt first.

Not if you have insurance.

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Why are we afraid of socialized medicine?

Because nobody has presented an idea that is even remotely close to reasonable. 'How are we going to pay for it' is just the first major question. Present something reasonable besides "well, canada does it" and maybe we'd get somewhere.

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The only answer I can think of is that Americans are afraid of the word "socialist".

The word doesn't mean shit. It's the fact that our tax burden lies on a small percentage of the population. You want to tax businesses and the wealthy into bankruptcy for the benefit of those who contribute nothing. Talk about a fair tax across the board where everyone contributes and maybe a proposal where everyone benefits will be more reasonable.

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We're definitely not afraid to spend trillions of dollars killing Iraqis because Bush lied, so I don't think we can say we're really that afraid of the cost of health care for our own people.

Ok. How do you intend to pay for it? If we're not afraid to spend the money then where is it going to come from? More taxes for the wealthy? I guess they're only at, what, 36% now? We should be able to squeeze at least 10 more percent out of them before considering making others in society contribute.

Arguments like 'there was a war in Iraq' are why the health care plan doesnt go anywhere. There are no reasonable proposals.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

LOL sorry I missed most of the fun in this thread. Visiting DZ.COM just isn't as important to me as it may have been in the past.

My moniker (CanuckInUSA) gives the impression that I am a Canadian in the USA and while this was the case from 1998 through 2005, I have been back in my native Canuckistan slaving away in the salt mines paying taxes and trying to keep my financial head above the water (or was that ice, hard to tell we really only have about 2 maybe 3 months of sort of warm weather here).

Anyway when I lived in Boulder CO I had a doctor (yes I had insurance through my employer) who I could call up, schedule an appointment and yes he had a file on me. He sort of knew me. When I came in for my appointment I never waited more than 15 minutes to see him.

Now in Canada I could phone every doctor in a city of 1 million people where I now call home and not a single doctor will accept me as their patient. That is right in Canada I can not have a doctor who can get to know me, who can keep a file on me. In Canada if I need to seek medical attention, I have to show up to a clinic (or worse the emergency room of a hospital) and wait for hours and hours and hours only to be seen my a medical person (they may not even be a doctor) who only wants to process me as fast as they can and get on to the next gerbil. I am starting to develop a hernia (boy isn't getting old fun). The medical professionals here say no we are not going to do anything. Here's the waiting list we are going to put you on, call us when the pain is unbearable and we will see what we can do about getting you on a different waiting list.

The Canadian medical system is NOT the cats meow. It's nice that we do not lose our homes when someone in our family gets injured or becomes sick. But we lack the individual care where a doctor knows you and you are pretty much screwed when you get put on one of our infamous waiting lists.

Of course Canada's faulty medical system is not always Canada's fault. One of the reasons why we have no doctors and no nurses is because many of our medical professionals are living and working in the "for profit" US medical system. If money in medicine was not such a big thing in the USA, I am sure Canada would have way more medical professionals than we have now. So LOL ... a socialized US medical system could help Canada's socialized system in returning some of our doctors and nurses.

Ah who am I kidding, who wants to live with 6+ months of arctic winter weather if they can help it.

At least the Canadian banking system is not as messed up as the US banking system. If you want to see where Canada is better than the USA, it's in our banking system.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[georgerussia 0]

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Second, I've spent a little time in a lot of other countries, and in my experience, unless you are in a completely impoverished country, there is absolutely nothing wrong with socialized medicine.

That is pretty typical opinion if your experience with socialized medicine was limited to simple things like common cold or broken ankle. Those things are cheap even in USA. It is when you need an expensive procedure like cancer treatment or brain surgery when then it would be much easier to see what is wrong with socialized medicine.

Even nowadays in Moscow if you go to a free hospital, you need to bring your own syringes.

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The doctors are good, the prescriptions are cheap, there is little or no waiting, and no one worries about the cost of anything except medicine (and even that isn't bad).

Sure, nobody will put you into waiting list for a broken ankle. MRI might be different.
Regarding cheap prescriptions, the current situation is that USA is doing R&D of approximately 80% of all the world drugs. Other countries participation is very limited, and mostly clinical testing. So the rest of the world is basically getting a kind of "free ride" paid by our insurance premiums.

And yeah, while generic prescriptions are dirty cheap in most of Europe, the brand name drugs are quite expensive - and in some countries drugs are not covered by socialized healthcare at all.

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Compare this to private health care in the US: the doctors are good, prescriptions are outrageously expensive, waiting times are horrendous, and any visit to the hospital has you wondering whether you are going to die first or go bankrupt first.

But the difference in taxes helps you to buy insurance, and you end up having even more money.
So when you have insurance the generic prescriptions are cheap, and waiting times are MUCH faster - my friend recently discovered a tumor in his brain, went through several MRIs and had a brain surgery in like four days - and it only cost him around $500 in total premium as he has a very good insurance. Of course if having a cable and cell phone is more important than having health insurance, life sucks. And it should.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *