A Canadian experience with Canadian health-care

[TomAiello 25]

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It's unconscienable to me that ppl w/o insurance can afford to BASE jump or skydive.

Why? I feel no need to control their lives. They can make their own decisions, take their own risks, and face the consequences of their own actions. They are adults.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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..."we aren't talking about the government giving out free ham sandwhiches" ....its health care.

Why doesn't the government hand out free food? Is food less vital to survival than healthcare?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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At least once a week, I have to "kick out" a patient that doesn't NEED to be an inpatient...

Seriously?

Damn. When my wife went into labor, she headed to the hospital armed with a stack of printouts from the NIH and a couple textbooks, so she could argue with her OB if he didn't want to let her go home after 24 hours (it's the hospital's policy to keep a mother for 48 hours after delivery).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kbordson 8]

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At least once a week, I have to "kick out" a patient that doesn't NEED to be an inpatient...

Seriously?

Damn. When my wife went into labor, she headed to the hospital armed with a stack of printouts from the NIH and a couple textbooks, so she could argue with her OB if he didn't want to let her go home after 24 hours (it's the hospital's policy to keep a mother for 48 hours after delivery).

Seriously.

But... in their defense, if the baby is not being discharge (jaundice, blood sugars...) they don't want to leave. But... they don't HAVE to. The hospital allows one parent to sleep in the NICU room of the infant AND there are boarding room that they can rent for $35, but it doesn't stop them from wanting to stay in the hospital room and just let the bill build.

[jloirsdaan 0]

Nope, I just don't have a Phd in arguing on the internet apparently. I never said anything about the 40% that don't. Have no clue if that's correct or not. I'll take your word that it is.

I mean, that everyone pays taxes, some more than others. I hate paying them just the same as the other guy. But, that I think this is too important of an issue to just say "we can't afford it". As well as just saying a bunch of other things. I don't have a hidden agenda, nor the desire to keep arguing.

I am in over my head anyway, I have no edumacation really, and just think the way it is now is "jacked".

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[jloirsdaan 0]

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Why doesn't the government hand out free food? Is food less vital to survival than healthcare?

See thats what I mean, the arguements turn silly. That's not what I meant, apparently in Idaho people don't make jokes.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[TomAiello 25]

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Why doesn't the government hand out free food? Is food less vital to survival than healthcare?

See thats what I mean, the arguements turn silly. That's not what I meant, apparently in Idaho people don't make jokes.

I actually don't think it's a silly question at all. Malnutrition causes a lot of health problems. If we're trying to reduce the cost of healthcare, why aren't we starting with making sure people are fed? It really does seem like a case of trying to walk before we crawl.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jloirsdaan 0]

Food stamps.

edit to add: And WIC

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[TomAiello 25]

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I mean, that everyone pays taxes, some more than others.

No, seriously, you've been fooled. Lots of people aren't paying these taxes--they're making no contribution to the funding of this (or most other federal) program.

I think it just offends my basic sense of fairness that 4 out of 10 people are expecting to get something without having to put anything at all into the pot.

It also offends my same basic sense of fairness that we'd expect just one person in 20 to foot the bill for everyone's healthcare. If it's so important, why aren't we all chipping in for it? Why do we have to take from that one guy? Is it just because there are more of us than there are of him, so we can justify it to ourselves? Isn't that the same (il)logic a gang of bullies uses when they beat up the skinny, unpopular kid on the playground and take his lunch money?

edit to add: I'd be a whole heck of a lot less outraged if everyone gave in something--anything at all. It just seems insane that there are so many people demanding that they be given something when they aren't willing to pitch in themselves, to help others.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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Food stamps.

edit to add: And WIC

And they're doing such a bang up job that no one is hungry in this country?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jloirsdaan 0]

Nope, but plenty eat that wouldn't have without it.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[jloirsdaan 0]

I am not one of those people....and I can only argue for myself. I said at least twice that the tax system needs an overhaul as well. I think everyone should chip in, not saying other wise.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[warpedskydiver 0]

I have not had health insurance since 1995

I still get excellent care, I don't have any fees out of pocket.

To date I bet the total of my health care since then is in excess of $200k.

Am I a slacker sucking off the tit of society?

[TomAiello 25]

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I have not had health insurance since 1995

I still get excellent care, I don't have any fees out of pocket.

To date I bet the total of my health care since then is in excess of $200k.

Am I a slacker sucking off the tit of society?

Not if you signed a contract entitling you to those benefits, then lived up to your end of the bargain.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[warpedskydiver 0]

Thanks for being smarter than the average bear.

[jloirsdaan 0]

Not that anyone has said anything to the contrary, but the same applies here. We are covered now, and were before, was a small stint, have been paying the bill for the kids since leaving the hospital.

So if you were going there with me, don't.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[warpedskydiver 0]

???

Please explain

[jloirsdaan 0]

Disregard, I jumped to a conclusion. Thought that was directed at me.
edit to add: Was assuming that statement was a jab....sorry.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[lawrocket 3]

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Have you ever lived without insurance?

Yep. For about six months I thought I was invincible and didn't need it. And it interfered with bar hopping. I got scared straight after a bout of sepsis and when I was a college student I made sure I got it. When I was in law school those student loans went partially to health insurance. When I got my first job as an attorney was the first time I had cvoverage available through an employer. I have not gone without since.
[Reply]Not everybody is created equal in this world

No. Kids can't afford insurance. Adults can, and far more often than not choose not to get it. People aren't born equal. Adults choose which side of equal they will be on.

Which is why I get tasked with supporting those who choose not to support themselves or their own, right?

[Reply] and unfortunately there are some folks who work at the local diner, or bag groceries at the local store, and make minimum wage in a job that offers no health coverage and only pays enough to cover their daily living expenses and bills.

Yes. Typically those people are called "teenagers.". If you are 40 years old and working a training wage at a training job, what does that say about the choices that person has made in life?

Go ahead and convince me that an otherwise ordinary person outside of a teenager has not chosen a life commensurate with what you have described. Good luck.

Tell me - are you one of those? Or were you like me - born poor and thought of as foolish for foregoing the life of a supervisor at a movie theater so I could get educated? Yeah - I made the choice not to have kids until after 30. I made the choice to work my ass off and not have fun. I made the choice.

I'm such an asshole for not lknowing that my place was where I came up.

The shame is that I've known others that I believe to be far more capable than I am not be willing to actually sacrifice the fun now for an easier time later.

So I, a poor kid with a learning disability (not wuite born equal, eh) have gotten more outta myself than people like you think possible. I failed out of college and worked myself back in.

I thank myself for not listening to self-anointed, self-aggrandizingfolks who told me I just wasn't goof enough. And now I should pay for my sacrifice, diligence and hard work? Fuck you.


[Reply]A lot of these people are good people who are just trying to hold their head above water.

Yes, as my two year old does in the pool. Go ahead and tell these people that they can't swim. That's the nice thing to do. You are such a loving person. "I know, you just can't do it. There are certain people that are not cut out for swimming. You are struggling to simply keep your head above water. I think you should just quit. Lawrocket can swim. He will haul you, your family, and a few others. He was advantaged in being born just knwoing how to swim. What? No, he did not work for his skill. Yes. He is cold and heartless, for he thinks he is more important. He values his life more than his own. He things that you can swim if you put forth the effort to learn. No, I don't think you can. Yes, I can swim, too. But I don't need to help you. Lawrocket does - his heart is in the wrong place."

Yes - I cannot think of a better message to send people than to tell them they can't.
[Reply]they're not going out and boozing it, or blowing their money on fancy things. (though I am sure there are those types out there who make enough money to pay for their own insurance yet choose to blow it on a new car or clothes.)

Tell me - what average or even below average citizen cannot afford insurance? "She's 22 and has 3 kids to support.". Oh.yes. About those "choices..." "Mininum wage cannot support a family of four." It's not supposed to. Minimum wage is intended for those with no marketable skills. This is why skilled labor doesn't make minimum wage and gets things like insurance.

Every time I read of a skydiver femuring in without insurance I am infuriated. I cannot afford to skydive because I need to keep up with my resposibilities. Yet they skydive (the sport aint cheap, you know) and have no insurance - a sport whose danger is so in-your-face obvious that it boggles the mind.

[Reply]If everybody had the brains to become PHd's, or just get a degree in something, then the world would be totally screwed.

Every day people do. Everyday people do not have the willingness to sacrifice, which is fine.

[Reply]My parents were not the ivy league educated go to school type, so they worked in resturaunts, at local stores, or whatever they could to provide for us with the skills and knowledge that they had, which meant a lot of the jobs they worked were minimum wage with no health insurance.

Why didn't they stick with a job long enough to get skilled in it? Rise up the ladder?

I chose not to have kids because I wanted my kids to have better than I had. Aned my parents kept me insured.

[Reply] I didn't have health insurance until I took my first job out of college when I was 23 years old.

Let me guess - you didn't have to support a family. You chose to get educated. You chose not to have a family until you could afford it.

It doesn't take a genius to make these choices.

[Reply]Take my situation I just explained. Why does any child deserve to not be cared for

Kids have no choice.

[Reply]if their parents do the best they can and do not have health insurance?

I guess you consider having kids when you can't take care of them doing "the best they can.". I'd posit that the adults can do better - like not have kids until they can support them.

[Reply]I grew up not being able to go to a hospital unless I thought I was going to die, or if you're sick you wait it out to make sure its an infection you can't get rid of without antibiotics.

Wow. That's just the sort of families we want, right? Let's create an incentive, and for $650 billion from 1% of the society we can get that.

Frankly - I disagree. If you had kids before graduating college I ask you, "were you thinking?". If you didn't, I ask you, "why not?". Could it be that better options were available?

[Reply]I just get the feeling that some of the people on the republican high horse fighting against this health plan like to paint a picture that all of these people who would benefit from the program are a bunch of no good wellfare, white trash, money grubbing, low life bums that have nothing better to do than life off the man above them on the totum pole.

Your feelings toward me are wrong. However, I firmly believe that a very substantial portion of people who would benefit from the program are a bunch of no good wellfare, white trash, money grubbing, low life bums that have nothing better to do than life off the man above them on the totem pole.

Tell me - is society better off if my thought is correct?

[Reply] Beacause my parents couldn't provide health care insurance for us you have basically said they didn't have pride in themselves or taking care of their own.

Negative. They probably had a. lot of pride. But are you of the opinion that there is no amount of prior planning, thought, or action that would have resulted in your parents being unable to give their kids insurance?

I beg to differ. I tend to think that people are far more capable than people like you give them credit for. I think that people are resourceful and self-interested. This explains both parasitic hosts (like me) and parasites.


[Reply] I beg to differ, sir... my mother worked harder in her life and worried more in her life for her kids than I will ever have to work or worry sitting in my little comfy cube with my fancy masters degree and cozy job.

Yes. As did my parents. And I took from that, "get your shot together.". Not, "you can't get your shit together."


[Reply]It is just the way it is.

[B]WRONG!!! WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! it is the way they made it. It is the way they did it.

Such is not tolerable for 99% of life. I failed out of school - that's the way it is. I had a kid - that's the way it is. I have a law degree - that's fate.

No. We choose. Our lives are the result of our choices. I am a result of my failures as much as my successes. My life is the result of thoughtful reflection - "do I really want to face the possible consequences of unprotected sex with her?" "Do I want to hang out with Liz and get something else or do I want to study for my test."

These are actual choices I faced. And choices I made.


[Reply]Not every single person has the mental or intellectual ability to go off and get a higher education so they can get some big fancy paying job and good health insurance.

No. Every person, however, has the opportunity to learn where the Peter Principle will put them.

[Reply]If that were the case, the world would crumble because we wouldn't have anybody to serve you coffee at your local diner, or clean up in that fancy office building you work in.

Fancy. Ha!

And, yes, there is a need for these services. But it doesn't mean that they cannot afford health insurance.

[Reply] It is the way it is

It is the way things are made via conscious decision.

[Reply] and other governments have realized that and made a health care system to account for it.

Yes. They decide how they will balance availability, cost and quality. They strip that choice from the consumer.

[Reply] The U.S hasn't, and it's not big suprise.

Indeed. No surprise at all.

[Reply]It's like we're always chasing a dime here and everything has to be a big money making machine (like the insurance companies).

If you think the insurance companies are bad, take a look at the government (roughly half of health-care spending already. The dominant force in a failed US system deeks to take it over. Great. Awesome.)

[Reply]The OP's story that was posted was a perfect example of why this system works so well in other places. Most people share that author's opinion; at least most I know that live in other countries.
Yes. And most kids think they have the best parents because they are the only parents they've known.

I fall victim to this, as well. Those that think their parents sucked look at other parents (who supplied kegs for their kids' birthday parties) as better and wish they had parents like that.

I hope my kids think I'm not a cool dad, and look back and respect me when they are 30.


[Reply]Sure, you "take pride in yourself and your family" by being blessed enough to have gone to school, get a good job and a great insurance plan so you don't have to worry about these things,

Blessed enoguh? Fuck you. I worked my ass off for it because I lack the intellectual capacity that you have to merely stumble upon a master's degree.

Or did you actually have to work for you master's?

Blessing? My fucking ass. It was hard fucking work and sacrifice.

[Reply]but it's not going to be like that for everybody unfortunately.

No. Many others do not sacrifice.

[Reply]So.. good for you and here's a pat on the back for going out and making it for yourself and making sure your family has good insurance.

I don't want a pat in the back. I also don't want a punch in the face for it.

[Reply] I've tried to do the same thing with my life because you have to in the U.S,

Not if others have their way. One shouldn't have to do anything, which is considered caring.

[Reply] but some people aren't going to be as lucky as you are I,

Lucky. Fuck you. Luck had nothing to do with it. if I was lucky, I'd have the mental capacity of my friend Cisco, the son of illegal immigrants and former Marine who is by far the smartest guy I've ever met (he actually exceeds billvon.). And Cisco, I know, worked his ass off, too.

[Reply] and personally, I don't think children or newborns, like the ones in this story, should be punished for being dealt the cards of having a family that does not have insurance.

So insure the kids. The adults are on their own.

How about that?

[Reply]You won't "get less," if these people are taken care of.

I respectfully disagree. I WILL get less. And pay more.

[Reply] Republicans are always running around screaming about how they are getting this and that taken from them. Do the Canadians feel like they are "getting less" because some of their taxes go towards health care?

Ask the ones getting medical treatment in Detroit. (Not even Americans will go to Detroit)

[Reply]What about people in the UK? France? All over the world? I've never once heard somebody from any of these places complain that they feel they get so much less in terms of their health stuff, or life in general, because of the system they have in place.

True. Nor do I ever hear of americans complaining about getting less. They bitch about actually having to pay for it.

[Reply]Sorry for the rant, but I had a few minutes today to get a bit off my chest out this whole thing.

And sorry about cussing you out, but I get the sense that people think that things like my law degree and my health insurance came easily to me. They did not. They came with great struggle and sacrifice, which is why they are so very important to me.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Jerry, people argue that since I get free health care then all people should get free health care.


When I explain to them that I do not get Free Health Care, they tell me "yes you do"

They liken the VA to welfare of sorts.

I cannot understand how they think everyone is entitled to free health care just because disabled veterans get health care at the VA, without having to pay out of pocket.

Am I missing something here?

[jloirsdaan 0]

I was a bit hot under the collar my first few posts no hostility was meant, on my part, to anyone. I think this is an important debate. Funny how politics can get under a person's skin so quick.

I am off to bed now, done with my rare day of posting on dz.com. If I offended you, Jerry, or anyone else. My apologies.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Why does any child deserve to not be cared for if their parents do the best they can and do not have health insurance?

That's why we already have SCHIPP (sp?).

We are all engines of karma

[TankBuster 0]

Lawrocket for President! I'm writing you in on the next one.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Jerry does not want that fucked up job.

They would kill him right away, probably at a beer tent.


You cannot get elected to POTUS as an honest man.

Jerry is an honest man.

You should also see the letter I got from FDT.

Talk about how pissed off a former insider can be about the entire process.

You first get asked to run, you do not want to but then your conscience compels you to do something because your country needs you.

Then you think you are in the later years of your life, you are comfortable with millions in the money you actually earned outside of the government.

Then it really hits you about the kind of country you are leaving your grandkids and the rest of America.

Even though most of the sacks of shit in this country think you are a just a republican.
They consider you to be with nothing but greed and contempt and disregard for the people but you forge ahead and actually think things out instead of giving canned responses and people consider you unfit or senile.


We are fucked


He won't ever run again after what the republican party did to him, but we have not heard the last from FDT.

He regrets that he never served in our military and has been trying to do something to serve us ever since.

[StreetScooby 5]

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I hear the arguement, that if the government steps in, the rest of the insurance compainies will go belly up.

The way the government will "trim costs" will be to not pay full price. The price they will pay won't even cover the doctor's costs, much less any profit for them. It's already happening in Medicaid.

We are all engines of karma