Liberals and Conservatives

[rlucus 0]

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I moved out to California and started discovering even more breweries. Stone Brewing, Lost Abbey, Lost Coast, the Lang and Deschutes to name a few. I also met Tomme Arthur, who is a brilliant brewer, and who now travels the world taking people on beer tours, hosting dinners with beer pairings and organizing joint brewing projects. I learned a tremendous amount from him about brewing, tasting beer and ass-aged dextrose. And he drank Mickey's and Bud.

Send me a case of Black Butte Porter... please...

Man I miss that stuff.

[billvon 2,394]

>The point was not that Reinheitsgebot determines what beer is and isn't,
>the point was about using quality ingredients to make a taste, not sacrifice taste
>to lower production costs.

Exactly. And the reason they chose rice was because that's what gave them the taste they were going after; they were not going to sacrifice taste to adhere to that law. You may not like it and that's fine.

Some other breweries that use rice as an adjunct:

Sapporo
Kirin
Orion
Asahi

>except hemp, where did you get on of those?

Hemp Ale by Humboldt. Had it at a beer festival in Oregon; didn't like it much. There are a few dozen beers brewed with hemp. Beeradvocate.com is a good place to find odd beers like that.

>Bud, Coors, etc substitute ingredients with rice. As listed in the ingredients,
>Bud uses a whopping 40% rice. That sounds like fermented rice water to me.
>What makes that beer and not watered down Sake?

Describe it however you like; it doesn't taste at all like sake to me, but everyone's palate is different. Utopias sometimes seems closer to brandy than to beer. Speedway Stout tastes more like coffee. Angel's Share often tastes like bourbon, and one of the Stone anniversary ales tasted a lot like red wine.

But they're still all beer.

>Bud, Coors, etc substitute ingredients with rice.

Right. Just like Pyramid substitutes wheat (which is cheaper) and Bear Republic substitutes rye (which is also cheaper.) And just like Sapporo, Kirin, Orion and Ashai substitute rice. Good for them. The more kinds of beer the better.

>What Bud and Coors do is no different. Quality is not part of their vocabularies.

They have higher quality beer in many ways than some of the microbrewers I know. They certainly take more care in its production - the process is more consistent, the kettles/fermenters more sterilized, the end result more reliable - than a lot of the smaller brewers who use leaky thirdhand fermenters.

That, of course, doesn't mean you have to like or dislike any of them. You might prefer a small microbrewery with inconsistent results from year to year, because when they're good they're very good. Lost Abbey is like that. Cuvee de Tomme this year is outstanding; last year it tasted like spoiled cherry juice. Or you might prefer a Stone Pale Ale. Stone has a very refined operation, and they expend a lot of effort to standardize their process and keep their line clean and (relatively) sterile. Or you might prefer a Sam Adams, which uses breweries like Miller to brew beer for them since they have a good quality control system in place.

A lot of people's perceptions of the brewing world is based on marketing. "Hand crafted" is one of the latest buzzwords. Would you prefer a canopy "hand crafted" by a senior rigger who builds a few a year, or one of a thousand identical cookie-cutter canopies built by PD on a production line with a laser cutter? Some will like the "hand crafted" canopy, some will prefer the more repeatable PD canopy. But 90% of the time the PD canopy is going to be higher quality because of their quality control system and repeatable process.

Fortunately, we _do_ have beers that range from Coors Light (which is great when it's really hot out and you're just plain thirsty) to Speedway Stout (which is an experience that's going to take you a while and fill you up.) People can pick anything they want along that spectrum. And while there are definitely styles I like and styles I dislike, I've also learned that it's generally a mistake to heed other people's advice over what's "swill" or "piss." I'd have missed out on a lot of interesting beers if I did that.

[SpeedRacer 1]

From Merriam/Webster Dictionary:

Conservatism:

a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change ; specifically : such a philosophy calling for lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, a strong national defense, and individual financial responsibility for personal needs (as retirement income or health-care coverage).

Liberalism:

a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties ; specifically : such a philosophy that considers government as a crucial instrument for amelioration of social inequities (as those involving race, gender, or class).

Speed Racer
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[rehmwa 2]

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People can pick anything they want along that spectrum. And while there are definitely styles I like and styles I dislike,

It's funny how this conversation goes - Instead of acknowledging that people like different things because we perceive things different, many choose to belittle whatever they don't like.

Much like the intolerance of political discussion. Makes it difficult to actually trade ideas when the knee jerk reaction is "That's not exactly my position, therefore it's crap"

I'm not a fan of beer in general - it's pond scum and any reasonable person would drink wine and hard liquor

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SpeedRacer 1]

Looking over the definition of Liberalism, it looks to me as though Classical Liberalism would basically include everything up to the semi-colon.

Speed Racer
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[billvon 2,394]

> it's pond scum and any reasonable person would drink wine and hard liquor

Nothing wrong with wine or hard liquor either. Of course the people who _drink_ wine and hard liquor - that's another story.

[rehmwa 2]

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Looking over the definition of Liberalism, it looks to me as though Classical Liberalism would basically include everything up to the semi-colon.

for both - you just delete the word "specifically" and everything after that, and there you have it.

the rest is more contemporary in terms of how each party views themselves in today's light

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TomAiello 25]

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Looking over the definition of Liberalism, it looks to me as though Classical Liberalism would basically include everything up to the semi-colon.

Yes. But what comes after that is enough to drive most classical liberals away.

The fundamental divide is whether it is appropriate to use government power to force individuals to conform to your ideas of a "better world."

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[chasteh 0]

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The fundamental divide is whether it is appropriate to use government power to force individuals to conform to your ideas of a "better world."

When you take the left side of Liberalism, it also seems quite compatible with the whole definition of conservativism...

If only today's republican party genuinely fit within the definition of conservativism...

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The fundamental divide is whether it is appropriate to use government power to force individuals to conform to your ideas of a "better world."

If this is what the majority of the democratic party actually represents, then I think the democratic party has lost its way in a similar way to how the republican party has as I mentioned above. I see most of the republican party being just as socialist as the democratic party is, so labeling authoritarianism as a key feature of liberalism I think is false.

[SimonBones 1]

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Some other breweries that use rice as an adjunct:

Sapporo (pee)
Kirin (pee)
Orion (pee)
Asahi (Least of the pe-evils)

Looks to me like Bud and Coors are really more of a Japanese "Beer" than an American one.

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Describe it however you like; it doesn't taste at all like sake to me, but everyone's palate is different. Utopias sometimes seems closer to brandy than to beer. Speedway Stout tastes more like coffee. Angel's Share often tastes like bourbon, and one of the Stone anniversary ales tasted a lot like red wine.

But they're still all beer.

And that's fine, good, and dandy. You or I may or may not like the outcome taste of the beer, but at least it was made with the goal of quality and craft. Unlike Bud and Coors who substitute quality ingredients with cheaper ingredients for the goal of higher commercial output at lower cost. Again, quality product not in mind.

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Or you might prefer a Sam Adams, which uses breweries like Miller to brew beer for them since they have a good quality control system in place.

And that's fine. While I might not like the taste of Miller beer, at least they don't substitute quality ingredients with rice. So they're beer in my book.

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A lot of people's perceptions of the brewing world is based on marketing. "Hand crafted" is one of the latest buzzwords.

"Hand crafted" or not, in beer or canopies it doesn't matter, is QUALITY still the goal? PD=Yes. Bud/Coors=No.

You can tell me up and down that McDonalds may have a great quality CONTROL system. That does not make their food a high quality meal. A quality CONTROL system keeps them from getting shut down for health code violations. That does not mean they have to use quality ingredients to make a quality product.

Rehmwa

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It's funny how this conversation goes - Instead of acknowledging that people like different things because we perceive things different, many choose to belittle whatever they don't like.

There are plenty of quality craft beers out there made by artisan brewers who have produced beers I didn't like. But I can recognize that their goal is to treat brewing like an art and create a masterpiece beer by using quality ingredients to create the taste they're looking to express. Bud/Coors on the other hand, like McDonalds and Taco Bell in the meal industry, are not looking to produce a high quality beer.

There's a difference between beer you don't like because it's not your flavor, and fermented rice water (pee).

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[TomAiello 25]

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The fundamental divide is whether it is appropriate to use government power to force individuals to conform to your ideas of a "better world."

If this is what the majority of the democratic party actually represents, then I think the democratic party has lost its way in a similar way to how the republican party has as I mentioned above. I see most of the republican party being just as socialist as the democratic party is, so labeling authoritarianism as a key feature of liberalism I think is false.

I actually think it is. The fundamental core tenet that appears to unite the Democratic party is an abiding faith in the use of government power to "better" the world.

The Republicans, while paying lip service to the idea of limited government, in actual practice usually also try to use government power to "better" the world.

Obviously, they're working at cross purposes much of the time, because their ideas of "better" are a bit different. My problem is that they both (usually) want to use the power of government for their own ends, and get irate when the other party uses it for a different set of goals. I'd prefer that we reduce the power of government so that it couldn't be used by a political elite (of whichever stripe) to enforce their vision of "good" on the rest of us.

The reason I'm more often "Republican" than "Democrat" (when in fact I am a libertarian) is that the Republicans occasionally act against the expansion of government power generally.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[chasteh 0]

>The reason I'm more often "Republican" than "Democrat" (when in fact I am a libertarian) is that the Republicans occasionally act against the expansion of government power generally.

It's just been a really, really long time since they have done it. I'm with you. If anyone of the republican party is at it's core consistent and not lost, he is a libertarian. Save for a more ruthless analysis of someone like Ayn Rand. (I think she gets lost in her anger and eventually works against herself, but that is another subject)

I think Ron Paul is a pretty intelligent person. I am also a fan of Dennis Kucinich. Wait a second... they are both friends....

[rehmwa 2]

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My problem is that they both (usually) want to use the power of government for their own ends, and get irate when the other party uses it for a different set of goals. I'd prefer that we reduce the power of government so that it couldn't be used by a political elite (of whichever stripe) to enforce their vision of "good" on the rest of us.

not much to add here, just it resonates

also, the Republicans tend to be (or pretend to be) ashamed of their addiction to misuse government power to control the masses (but they do it anyway). The Dems seem to revel in it like it's their due and celebrate their crapulence like it's a good thing. It's like the Reps want to control the people even though they realize the people could take care of themselves if left alone and the Dems, frankly, believe that some people really are better than others and need to be calling all the shots for the rest.

in practice, I can't tell the difference

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[chasteh 0]

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The Dems, frankly, believe that some people really are better than others and need to be calling all the shots for the rest.

Fucking arrogant, wealthy, elitist, welfare-loving, hippie democrats! They should move out of starbucks for once, and get out and see the world as it is. Cold, hard, and primed for individualism. I can't believe I have to work from 9 to 5, every day, when those stupid democrats are trying to give my wealth to all those lazy single moms who are living in their golden palaces without having to work!

[billeisele 122]

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The Dems, frankly, believe that some people really are better than others and need to be calling all the shots for the rest.

Fucking arrogant, wealthy, elitist, welfare-loving, hippie democrats! They should move out of starbucks for once, and get out and see the world as it is. Cold, hard, and primed for individualism. I can't believe I have to work from 9 to 5, every day, when those stupid democrats are trying to give my wealth to all those lazy single moms who are living in their golden palaces without having to work!

Yeah that's right.

Hey, give me another one of those beers. You know, the ones we got from trading the peanut butter and jelly we got with food stamps with Sally next door.

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[chasteh 0]

I figured the satire wouldn't be all that funny, considering so many conservatives here are saying exactly those things.

[billvon 2,394]

>Hey, give me another one of those beers. You know, the ones we got from
>trading the peanut butter and jelly we got with food stamps with Sally next door.

I can't be bothered to get up. But I'll drive my government Cadillac to my Beverly Hills low-income condo and see if the government has sent me my welfare big screen TV, installed by the rich, elitist illegal aliens who really run things down here. But - wait - I can't afford the Playboy channel unless I have another three kids, so I better work on that.

[chasteh 0]

C'mon billvon, enough is enough. I need to keep enough laughter-juice for the DZ this afternoon.

mothafuckin check dive, yo!

[billeisele 122]

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>Hey, give me another one of those beers. You know, the ones we got from
>trading the peanut butter and jelly we got with food stamps with Sally next door.

I can't be bothered to get up. But I'll drive my government Cadillac to my Beverly Hills low-income condo and see if the government has sent me my welfare big screen TV, installed by the rich, elitist illegal aliens who really run things down here. But - wait - I can't afford the Playboy channel unless I have another three kids, so I better work on that.

Man welcome to my world, you got it now. And you can drive that screeen with all that free power you get from those panels. Just one hint, don't have kids, get some dogs and give them people names. But with all your mad skillz can't believe that you actually pay for cable. With some simple tools and a couple home-made filters you can have all the channels you want for free.

I'm just waitin' on July 24th so I can trade in my Clunker Car for the new IS 350, of course with the NAV package. Thanks everyone fo' your generosity.

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.