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SkydiveJack

Need Shotgun Advice

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The Mossberg 500 is even more ergonomically efficient.

The safety is where it should be;)

I have no idea if that's an auto, but Mossberg makes a fine pump. Both the pump and the auto make no noise if you keep a round in the chamber (lot of safety issues here). Unless you want to spend, a pump or auto without the bells and whistles will do just fine. Somebody even makes a home defender. It's plain, but it works.
Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

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I have a good amount of experience with semi-auto & pump shotguns, and have to say that a properly adjusted Saiga is just as reliable as any pump.
I can't count how many people I've seen induce mals by short stroking pumps, especially when under pressure in simulations/competitions.
Imagine the pressure in a home/self defense scenario.

And as for clearing mals, semi or pump, ones just as easy as the other.

Intimidation factor.
The sound of pumping a round into the chamber vs charging the action (same thing), IS intimidating.
Even more so is the visual aspect, a shottie is a feared weapon, just like a AK.
Fuck any studies disproving/proving such things as this, the study is almost always biased and can show whatever is wanted.

Granted, I'm a Saiga fan.
Saiga makes great weapons, be it rifle/carbine or shottie.
But...
You cannot go wrong with a Saiga 20, and for her home defense needs, you don't NEED to convert or go tactical.
Tho I would recommend a few after market parts/accessories that enhance reliability.

I use and recommend, Fiocchi, 2 3/4", nickel plated, #4 buck, 27 pellet, for home defense.
................................

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

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The Mossberg 500 is even more ergonomically efficient.





I have a Moss 12 in my safe that my uncle gave me. Shot about a box through it and never shot it again. I hate that thing. Kicks like a mule! Thats the only problem I have with it is the recoil on it. It's really bad. Can't remember what model it is and I am to lazy right now to open the safe to look.:P
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

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Whatever you choose. Ammo choice is the important factor. 6 1/2 bird shot will open a wound channel equal to 00 buck at 7 yrds. 6 1/2 low brass will not penatrate more than one sheetrock interior wall, 00 buck will and you take the chance of colaterial damanage..
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Ammo choice is the important factor. 6 1/2 bird shot will open a wound channel equal to 00 buck at 7 yrds. 6 1/2 low brass will not penatrate more than one sheetrock interior wall, 00 buck will and you take the chance of colaterial damanage..





Just go with a 3"in slug and make a tunnel big enough to drive a car through.:P
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

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I'll jump in and share my 2 cents since I've actually used a shotgun in a real world situation. I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned it yet but anyways, heres my recommendation.

I know you said you wanted an auto loader but I'd recommend a pump(reason below). Either way here is a possible answer/solution to your question.

1. Remington YOUTH 20 gauge 870 OR 11-87

2. If you don't get a youth model, invest in the youth stock set for your wife. If you go with a pistol grip stock and can't find a youth version, cut the factory one down to fit her and reattach the limb saver butt pad. It will make it easier for her to shoulder and shoot the weapon correctly.

3. Invest in an 18" barrel for whichever model you go with. Due to your wife's size and the environment it will be used in, a shorter barrel is preferable.

4. Surefire fore end light. I'd be more concerned that your wife be able to identify the target than with a laser sight of any kind. This is also one of the reasons why I suggest an 870 pump gun and not an autoloader. The surefire light will add a bit of weight and an auto will already be heavier than the pump. Add a surefire light to an auto loader and you not only make it heavier but you also invite potential feed problems.

5. Install an oversized/Vang Comp saftey button.

6. Install a magazine tube extension ( metal only, avoid the plastic crap). If the weapon feels too heavy fully loaded then remove the mag extension(as pictured).

7. (optional) stainless steel or metal magazine follower and upgraded spring.

You will find that even with a Surefire on a Youth 870 and the mods I mentioned that the weapon remains fairly light and manageable for a small framed person.



* Loads: There is a great deal of discussion on the topic of which load is good for home defense. Bottom line is birdshot is for birds. Since we are talking about your wife here, you want the first shot to count as it may be the only one she gets. Might as well make it good and use a load that given the distance will be in her favor even if shot placement isn't ideal. Play around with a few different loads until you find one she is comfortable with. This will also give her a good deal of time on the gun to get used to it and become familiar with it's operation.


I've attached a picture of my 12g 870 thats set up the way I described above(disregard the breaching device and side saddle, those are items she will not need). Hope that helps you and your wife out.:)

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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The Mossberg 500 is even more ergonomically efficient.





I have a Moss 12 in my safe that my uncle gave me. Shot about a box through it and never shot it again. I hate that thing. Kicks like a mule! Thats the only problem I have with it is the recoil on it. It's really bad. Can't remember what model it is and I am to lazy right now to open the safe to look.:P


Get the limbsaver recoil pad, you will like that shotgun

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Whatever you choose. Ammo choice is the important factor. 6 1/2 bird shot will open a wound channel equal to 00 buck at 7 yrds. 6 1/2 low brass will not penatrate more than one sheetrock interior wall, 00 buck will and you take the chance of colaterial damanage..



Bird shot is for birds.




American Size English Size European Size Pellet Diameter Pellet Weight (grains) Lead Pellets Per Oz. Steel Pellets Per Oz.
11 12 12 .062" .35 1250
11 11 .066" .42 1040
10 10 10 .07" .52 848
9 1/2 .075" .63 688
9 9 9 .08" .75 568
8 1/2 8 .085" .97 472
8 7 8 .09" 1.29 399
7 1/2 6 1/2 .095" 1.46 338
7 6 7 .10" 1.62 291 423
6 5 6 .11" 1.99 218 317
5 4 5 .12" 2.57 168 243
4 3 4 .13" 3.12 132 192
3 2 3 .14" 3.65 106 154
2 1 2 .15" 4.38 86 125
1 B 1 .16" 5.47 71 103
BB BB .177" 6.25 55 72

No smaller than BBB!!! unless you want to lose a gunfight.


BBB BBB .19" 7.29 42 61
T .20" 36 53
F .22" 27 39
#4 Buck .24" 21 30
#3 Buck .25" 19 28
#1 Buck .30" 11
0 .32" 9
00 .34" 8
000 .36" 6

If an attacker takes cover behind a sheet rock wall and fires blind down the hallway you will die.


My friend carried a shotgun for three tours in Vietnam
1967-1970

1st CAV.

101 ABN

He is old now and still has a shotgun on a coat hanger with his robe over it.

God help any intruders, they may as well shoot themselves.

He probably used it more than anyone I ever met in order to kill attackers.





Shoot through the wall with sufficient energy to stop the fight.

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Are there other people that live in you home? Such as kids or a wife, possabily an elderly mother or father? If you think that #6 1/2 bird shot at 20 ft. will not kill then you are sadly mistaken.

In close quarters combat situations 6 1/2 will open a wound chanel in a person thourax equal to 00 buck. It will rip, tear and shread every thing. The human body is 2/3 water. Skin, muscel, guts at an avarage of 10-14 inches thick. Slugs and 00 buck will penatrate through the human body and continue through 2 or 3 sheet rock interior walls, also ripping and tearing your childern or perhaps the respondinf police officers. Wise up! CQC by a homeowner is alot different from urban warfare by trained soldiers.
_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

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If an attacker takes cover behind a sheet rock wall and fires blind down the hallway you will die<<<

Maybe, But I would not fire blindly in my home at him. It is utterly imposible to list all the "what ifs". With all of my fly. members accounted far, and behind me I would choose to take cover and dial 911 before charging into battle agains an unknown foe. The reason is because I can not account for all the "what ifs". Also I use a hand gun for self defense, I know and respect that a shot gun is also used by many for protection, but in your "what if" a shotgun would not be my first choice.

I can imangine the 12 member jury listening to the lawyer saying " Mr. so in so did not have a clear shot so he fire wildly through walls parilizing my client. He used a shotgun with 00 buck and a extention tube with 7 shot capasity, why would any man need that many rounds. He is crazy and should be locked away".
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Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

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People love to argue HD loads like car people like to argue Chevy/Ford and skydivers like to argue which canopy/AAD is best. Personal preferences aside, it is always best to look at actual data in order to make an informed decision. With that said, use the following information to draw your own conclusion and to make you own decision on which load to use for your given need and application.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Slugs and 00 buck will penatrate through the human body and continue through 2 or 3 sheet rock interior walls, also ripping and tearing your childern or perhaps the respondinf police officers. Wise up! CQC by a homeowner is alot different from urban warfare by trained soldiers.



Through-and-through, AND 2-3 interior walls?

Sorry, that pegs out my bullshit detector - got a cite for that?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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got a cite for that?
Check out PDTV, think it is episode 9.

Really, Then you must think its bullshit that a man can kick, or punch through 1/2 inch sheetrock. Well I have kicked out sheetrock doing demolition work on severial houses. Sheetrock is not really strong.

Now if you think that is bullshit, then you will love this. Try putting 3@ 12 inch by 12 inch pieces of 1/2 inch sheetrock over the muzzel of a 20 guage shotgun loaded with 00 Buck. Then place your left hand ontop of the sheetrock, with you right hand pull the trigger. Get back to me with the result..... if you still have fingures to type with ;).

There is approximatly 3 1/2 inches of airspace between layers of sheetrock on a 2x4 stud wall.
I would not take the chance of colateral damanage to loved ones, YMMV.

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Thank you LOU for that cite. Just looking at the first gel tells it all. The wound channel is as wide as 00 buck but only penatrated slightly over 6 inches. If this was a missed shot in a home it would have stopped after the first wall. That is a pretty big hole, can you picture what that would look like on a person. They would stop persuing you and have to seek medical attention or bleed out within minuets.
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Box o'Truth Shotgun tests, where he fires 12 gauge shot of varying kinds into a box holding sheets of wallboard 3 inches apart, and counts the number of sheets penetrated. Not terribly useful for determining penetration into human targets, but combined with the gel tests linked earlier, gives more info on wall penetration.
-- Tom Aiello

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SnakeRiverBASE.com

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got a cite for that?
Check out PDTV, think it is episode 9.

Really, Then you must think its bullshit that a man can kick, or punch through 1/2 inch sheetrock. Well I have kicked out sheetrock doing demolition work on severial houses. Sheetrock is not really strong.

Now if you think that is bullshit, then you will love this. Try putting 3@ 12 inch by 12 inch pieces of 1/2 inch sheetrock over the muzzel of a 20 guage shotgun loaded with 00 Buck. Then place your left hand ontop of the sheetrock, with you right hand pull the trigger. Get back to me with the result..... if you still have fingures to type with ;).

There is approximatly 3 1/2 inches of airspace between layers of sheetrock on a 2x4 stud wall.
I would not take the chance of colateral damanage to loved ones, YMMV.



Are you going to stand between the muzzle and the sheetrock, since your claim was several walls AFTER a through-and-through penetration?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Thank you LOU for that cite. Just looking at the first gel tells it all. The wound channel is as wide as 00 buck but only penatrated slightly over 6 inches. If this was a missed shot in a home it would have stopped after the first wall. That is a pretty big hole, can you picture what that would look like on a person. They would stop persuing you and have to seek medical attention or bleed out within minuets.



Read the whole thread as I think you've missed the point that is made about the effect on a HUMAN with birdshot( they don't bleed out any time soon which means you now have a pissed off attacker in your house). There is even a link to a news article that cites a man being shot in the head with birdshot and walking out of the house. If you read the whole thread and keep an open mind, you will see that yes, birdshot can kill a human at close range but more often than not, it does not and the assailant continues to attack or is not incapacitated. Using birdshot when your intent is to stop an assailant is a crap shoot and generally not a good idea when your life depends on it.

Your point of contention is penetration, which is also covered in the thread, gelatin vs sheetrock/materials and flesh. Again, if you are overly worried about over penetration of errant shot there are alternative loads,that aren't birdshot, that are far less of a worry than a handgun round that can be used. Of course this shouldn't be an issue if you use target discrimination when shooting at your intended target and since most household distance are fairly close, the shot group will remain fairly tight, unless you have 50m long hallways in your house and plan on shooting from one end to another.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Box o'Truth Shotgun tests, where he fires 12 gauge shot of varying kinds into a box holding sheets of wallboard 3 inches apart, and counts the number of sheets penetrated. Not terribly useful for determining penetration into human targets, but combined with the gel tests linked earlier, gives more info on wall penetration.



I agree with Your assessment and Scott's.

I stand by my opinion, it is not something I just pulled out of my ass.

I have shot at walls, doors, cars, and nearly anything else you can think of.

I tested on carcasses and other items as well.

I have not used shotgun in combat, I carried one on occasion but that was it.

So my answer still stands, and yes with a pattern as large as 3" I am confident I know who I would be shooting.


I cannot think of why people assume they will shoot their own family, I know what I am shooting at and my family or friends would be on the floor.

Nobody is going hold them up when they go limp with just one arm.

Some of you watch too many movies.

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Hi Skyjack,
Lots of good info so far. Someone mentioned the Mossberg 20 ga. youth pump. I have a Mossberg mod 88 Mavrick 12 ga pump and it's sweet. The Moss youth 20 ga. pump would probably be a good one to look into. One thing about a Pump as a few others have mentioned is the intimitation factor of the sound of the action, and after you get some practice with it, cycling the action becomes "Automatic!!!!"
SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

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Hi Skyjack,
Lots of good info so far. Someone mentioned the Mossberg 20 ga. youth pump. I have a Mossberg mod 88 Mavrick 12 ga pump and it's sweet. The Moss youth 20 ga. pump would probably be a good one to look into. One thing about a Pump as a few others have mentioned is the intimitation factor of the sound of the action, and after you get some practice with it, cycling the action becomes "Automatic!!!!"




You got that right Bill. Lot's of good info so far.

I really appreciate everyone who has responded. Thank you all very much!!!!!

The wife is leaning toward the Saiga 20 at this time. Does anyone know a good site that sells items such as larger magazines, pistol grips and light attachments for the Saiga 20? Lou, thanks for that shot info. And to answer an earlier question, as my wife says, the only child in our house is the one she married.

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Does anyone know of any case law related to self-defense shootings and various shotgun rounds?

Personally, I decided that if I'm willing to point the gun at a human and pull the trigger, I want to kill them. My "warning" load is #4 hardened buck or 00 buck, and I generally don't load anything else.



varies state to state.

in TX, if you shoot someone while they are in process of comitting a crime, you can not be brought up on civil charges. (the guy can't sue you if he lives, the family can't sue you if he dies) The grand jury will determine if you committed a crime or not, and sec 9 here pretty clearly states the exceptions for when use of force (deadly and otherwise) is allowed.


I agree with you wrt the warning load, but that's personal preference.
--
Rob

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Your wife is right. A small framed female needs a weapon she can be comfortable with. You will have some difficulty finding it, but Bennelli makes a 20 gauge auto in a youth model. It is ideal for small females. Load it with #6. #6 will create massive trauma to the target and is less likely to go through walls and kill your kids in the next room. Take her to a skeet range and let her have fun getting to know the weapon. Take her quarterly so she stays familiar with it.

Women love shooting skeet. Instant gratification. Training becomes recreation. Pump shotguns are fine for men. Women don't tend to care for them. Go to a sporting clay or skeet shoot and see what the women like. They like autoloaders. They like 20ga. Get her something other than what she has specified and she will not want to go shoot it and you will suffer. Don't be dumb. My daughter and I shot competition before I deployed here to Iraq. She loved it because it was fun and I didn't try to make her do things my way.

As to the shoot / don't shoot: your first action on shooting someone is to call the police. Report your name, location and that someone has just been shot. Then call an attorney. Refuse to answer questions until you have spoken with your attorney. I am a former cop and attorney. Trust me on this one.

A few states require that you run away from a shooting if you can; even in your own home. Most rely on the Castle Doctrine. Your home is your castle. All you have to do is convince a jury that you were in fear of death or serious injury to yourself or another before using lethal force. Check with an attorney in your state to see where you stand.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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