dreamdancer 0 #1 June 24, 2009 welcome to the quantum world... QuoteYOU slump in your chair and smile as your on-screen bankroll notches up another $1000 first prize. Knocking back the last of your coffee, you check your watch. It's 3 am. You've been playing these tournaments since lunchtime. One more, you tell yourself, and then bed. After all, it's worth it: this is the game that has made you rich. Well, that's not quite true. You're rich all right - but your talents at online poker are only part of the story. You glance down at the quantum processor buzzing softly under your desk as the virtual cards hit the felt once more. According to one US academic, this fictional scenario will not remain fantasy forever. Steve Bleiler, a mathematician at Portland State University in Oregon, is figuring out what will happen to the game of online poker when today's computers are eventually superseded by the quantum computing technology of tomorrow. "The strategies you find in classical poker textbooks work just fine for online games right now," he says. "But when your 'Quantum iMac' arrives you can just take all those poker textbooks and throw them in the dumpster." Bleiler's calculations suggest that when the game of poker is played by the rules of the quantum world, it undergoes a radical transformation. New strategies open up that simply didn't exist before and any gamers ready to exploit them stand to make a tidy profit - at the expense of those who are not. Players with quantum computers but with no access to "quantised strategies" will be at a terminal disadvantage, he says. "I can't wait." These startling predictions come from recasting poker within the framework of a branch of mathematics called quantum game theory. The most basic version of game theory arose in the 1920s as a way to evaluate the different strategies available to the players in any kind of competitive game, from poker to military campaigns. When the playing pieces in your game are everyday-scale objects that obey the laws of classical physics, this is relatively straightforward. But at the scale of subatomic particles, physics is governed by the counter-intuitive rules of quantum theory. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227081.300-quantum-poker-are-the-chips-down-or-not.htmlstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #2 June 24, 2009 In the quantum world, is there not the opportunity for a pair of treys to be a full house? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #3 June 24, 2009 Welcome to the Ivory Tower. A lot of writing about nothing. Of course the rules for "quantum poker" would be different. It's an imaginary and different game entirely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #4 June 24, 2009 how is the game different?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #5 June 24, 2009 Quotehow is the game different? A bunch of people sitting round a table dealing out cards do not behave like quantum particles. What this author describes is not poker, it's quantum poker. They are not the same game. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #6 June 24, 2009 the game rules are the same. (is internet poker not poker)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #7 June 24, 2009 Quotethe game rules are the same. (is internet poker not poker) No. It's not poker. It's quantum poker. The basic rules share a superficial similarity but the mechanism of playing the game is entirely different. English is superficailly similar to C++ in that they are both languages with syntax and grammar, but they are not the same language, not do they seek to convey the same types of message. People always get the wrong end of the stick from pop science books when they don't understand the underlying science. It's a fundamental flaw in trying to explain abstract concepts using concrete analogies. Reading pop science really is the fastest route to misunderstanding science. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #8 June 24, 2009 QuoteQuotethe game rules are the same. (is internet poker not poker) No. It's not poker. It's quantum poker. The basic rules share a superficial similarity but the mechanism of playing the game is entirely different. English is superficailly similar to C++ in that they are both languages with syntax and grammar, but they are not the same language, not do they seek to convey the same types of message. People always get the wrong end of the stick from pop science books when they don't understand the underlying science. It's a fundamental flaw in trying to explain abstract concepts using concrete analogies. Reading pop science really is the fastest route to misunderstanding science. it seems to me that the mechanism of the game is the same - the only thing that is different is the method of communication of the betting.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #9 June 24, 2009 Quoteit seems to me that the mechanism of the game is the same - the only thing that is different is the method of communication of the betting. Which makes it an entirely different game. Poker is a card game played by people sitting round a table. If you make the betting process different by putting in quantum rules, it ceases to be the same game. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #10 June 24, 2009 QuoteQuoteit seems to me that the mechanism of the game is the same - the only thing that is different is the method of communication of the betting. Which makes it an entirely different game. Poker is a card game played by people sitting round a table. If you make the betting process different by putting in quantum rules, it ceases to be the same game. poker is also a game played by individuals sitting at a computer screen.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #11 June 24, 2009 when all communication is done with 'quantum rules' things are going to get very confusing stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #12 June 24, 2009 Quote when all communication is done with 'quantum rules' things are going to get very confusing Things get confusing when you have no idea what you're reading, yes. Out of curiosity, what is it you do to contribute the well being of England? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #13 June 25, 2009 Quotewelcome to the quantum world... Quote According to one US academic, this fictional scenario will not remain fantasy forever. Steve Bleiler, a mathematician at Portland State University in Oregon, is figuring out what will happen to the game of online poker when today's computers are eventually superseded by the quantum computing technology of tomorrow. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227081.300-quantum-poker-are-the-chips-down-or-not.html Steve has a knack for making math sound exciting -- even if it is really missing the hard points. If high performing quantumr computers become a reality online poker is the least of anybody's problems. Super computers would make public-key type encryptions obsolete, allowing people to hack into just about anything. The path breaking insights are due to people like Peter Shor (and certainly not Bleiler). So although super computers are about at a stage where conventional compters were at the end of the 19th century, there is big money invested by government agencies (NSA, NSF, ...) but also private companies (Micro$oft, etc) into quantum computer research just to be on the safe side. Cheers, T ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #14 June 25, 2009 Quote Quote when all communication is done with 'quantum rules' things are going to get very confusing Things get confusing when you have no idea what you're reading, yes. how are you confused? (and you haven't answered how quantum poker is different from internet poker is different from poker played round a table - the rules are the same; the game is the same)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #15 June 25, 2009 Quote If high performing quantumr computers become a reality online poker is the least of anybody's problems. Super computers would make public-key type encryptions obsolete, allowing people to hack into just about anything. Cheers, T anything online will be an open book to such a quantum computer. the entire internet will be its database.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #16 June 25, 2009 Quoteanything online will be an open book to such a quantum computer. the entire internet will be its database. And they shall call it "Google".Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #17 June 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteanything online will be an open book to such a quantum computer. the entire internet will be its database. And they shall call it "Google". except this 'google' will be able to effortlessly access any hidden bank account or restricted website anywhere on the internet.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #18 June 25, 2009 Quote(and you haven't answered how quantum poker is different from internet poker is different from poker played round a table - the rules are the same; the game is the same) And you haven't been paying attention. If the games are the same, it shouldn't matter what type of computer you choose to play the game on and the whole point of the article is that it does matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #19 June 25, 2009 Quote Quote (and you haven't answered how quantum poker is different from internet poker is different from poker played round a table - the rules are the same; the game is the same) And you haven't been paying attention. If the games are the same, it shouldn't matter what type of computer you choose to play the game on and the whole point of the article is that it does matter. the game doesn't change - the tactics to win do (like when a tennis player changes from grass to clay - same game, same rules; different tactics)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #20 June 25, 2009 Quote the game doesn't change - the tactics to win do (like when a tennis player changes from grass to clay - same game, same rules; different tactics) But we are not talking about tennis in the macroscopic world compared to tennis somewhere else in the macroscopic world. We are comparing lawn tennis to quantum tennis where the balls tunnel through you racket and exist only in a cloud of probability. But yeah, if it makes you happy, it's the same game, nothing changes, the article is about nothing, why did you even post it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #21 June 25, 2009 Quote Quote the game doesn't change - the tactics to win do (like when a tennis player changes from grass to clay - same game, same rules; different tactics) But we are not talking about tennis in the macroscopic world compared to tennis somewhere else in the macroscopic world. We are comparing lawn tennis to quantum tennis where the balls tunnel through you racket and exist only in a cloud of probability. But yeah, if it makes you happy, it's the same game, nothing changes, the article is about nothing, why did you even post it? i like quantum stuff. and quantum computers won't be able to just play poker - how about war games, or the stockmarket? have you read the quantum treatment of the prisoner's dilemma? seems like we may be able to 'tunnel' to freedom stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #22 June 25, 2009 Quote have you read the quantum treatment of the prisoner's dilemma? seems like we may be able to 'tunnel' to freedom Why would I? Pop science is almost entirely junk and the short route to misunderstanding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #23 June 25, 2009 This kind of stuff is what comes of extending quantum behavior, which only occurs in the realm of the really really small, to the macro world of our everyday human existence. At the level of the very small, states and events that defy the ususal explanations of everyday observation do occur. But thinking balls will tunnel thru a racket or prisoners will tunnel thru a wall (other than the ususal and mundane everyday methods) is just plain silly. The bizarre individual perturbations of the quantum world are smoothed out when they are all brought together at the level on which humans live their lives." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #24 June 25, 2009 Quote Quote i like quantum stuff. and quantum computers won't be able to just play poker - how about war games, or the stockmarket? So do I. I have a PhD in quantum spintronics. Quote have you read the quantum treatment of the prisoner's dilemma? seems like we may be able to 'tunnel' to freedom Why would I? Pop science is almost entirely junk and the short route to misunderstanding. Quote IF YOU want to get ahead then you should stab your best mate in the back. At least that's what mathematicians would say. For decades they've studied simple games in which players can either cooperate or turn against one another, and they've found that logic often demands ruthless betrayal;even if it sometimes means everyone loses. But it doesn't have to be that way. Spice up game theory with a dash of quantum mechanics;the strange principles that govern the behaviour of molecules, atoms and subatomic particles;and lose-lose contests can become win-win. In a classical game, players must choose between cooperating and betraying. But, paradoxically, quantum mechanics allows players to do both at the same time. What's more, a spooky quantum connection called entanglement means each player's choice can secretly affect everyone else's. All this weirdness can make players pull together, even as each strives to get the best deal. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17323241.900-multiple-choice.htmlstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #25 June 25, 2009 QuoteSo do I. I have a PhD in quantum spintronics. So what. What kind of quantum streets smarts do you have?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
