Andy9o8 0
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quade 3
QuoteTheir children were born in the US. In the USSR, their equivalent to Boy/Girl Scouts was apparently a "junior paramilitary" organization that they felt was used by the govt to indoctrinate the country's kids to be Good and Obedient Little Soviets - and our friends hated that. So, here in the US, when their own kids inquired about joining the Cub Scouts, etc., they forbade it.
We in the western capitalist countries have far more subtle ways to indoctrinate youth into behaving themselves so they'll be rewarded by a benevolent all seeing, all knowing benefactor.
It's called . . . Santa Claus.
Youth's First Religion.
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The World's Most Boring Skydiver
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Andy9o8 0
QuoteWe in the western capitalist countries have far more subtle ways to indoctrinate youth into behaving themselves so they'll be rewarded by a benevolent all seeing, all knowing benefactor. It's called . . . Santa Claus. Youth's First Religion.
And, of course, religion is the opiate of the people. Ergo, Santa Claus = Your Brain On Drugs.
we're recycling a lot of "Should X be Y" threads in the past 24 hours.
nerdgirl 0
QuoteQuoteIt's a fundamental problem of the argument, if you can't show why the right to vote should be/is severable from other inalienable rights, then (1) either it isn't, or (2) the rest have to be earned as well.
So far neither you nor anyone else has tried to pursue that line of reasoning. You might be able to construct a case.
Voting is the only "inalienable" right for which there is no reciprocity between individuals. Which makes it the only "inalienable" right which can be exercised selfishly [diabolically?] to the deleterious affect of others.
Strained vernacular aside... "I can't kill you, you can't kill me. I can't silence you, you can't silence me. But if I get some friends together I can vote your ass to kingdom come."
I’m not following your argument (doesn't mean I think it's wrong or accurate ... I'm just not following it). To me, it seems that reciprocity is established in that each individual has one vote. E.g., if you get some friends together to vote your ass to kingdom come, so can the other party.
What your analogy does illustrate, at least as I’m reading it, is the importance of protecting the rights of the minority because the majority may try to remove rights of the minority with which it disagrees or that it doesn’t think they’ve earned.
W/r/t reciprocity & voting, that is a discussion in some countries: the idea that non-citizens legally resident in a country have a right to vote. E.g., legal non-citizen permanent residents of New Zealand, legal non-citizen residents of Uruguay after 15 years, most European countries grant full reciprocity to permanent residents, and ROK allows residents after 3 years to vote in local elections. Although no US States currently permit legal non-citizens to vote in State or National elections, historically more than half did at some time in the past (mostly 1800s).
/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
nerdgirl 0
Going back to this premise.
If that is so and the goal is high electorate participation, why would the argument not be to mandate voting? Some countries do.
Otoh, maybe that lack of perceived value or directly measurable value *is* the problem. Voting has intangible value. It’s hard to put a monetary value on it. Maybe that goes more to the problem?
How many people voted for the last American Idol finalist? Some large number of Americans found that ‘election’ to have some value. And they had to pay for it (yes?). If one asserts that the lack of participation in voting is its (lack of monetary) value, how about a proposal to charge for voting? What’s wrong with that? Why is that any less viable an option than those suggested in the OP?
/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
QuoteGoing on the premise of something given has no value.
If that is so and the goal is high electorate participation, why would the argument not be to mandate voting? Some countries do.
Otoh, maybe that lack of perceived value or directly measurable value *is* the problem. Voting has intangible value. It’s hard to put a monetary value on it. Maybe that goes more to the problem?
How many people voted for the last American Idol finalist? Some large number of Americans found that ‘election’ to have some value. And they had to pay for it (yes?). If one asserts that the lack of participation in voting is its (lack of monetary) value, how about a proposal to charge for voting? What’s wrong with that? Why is that any less viable an option than those suggested in the OP?
/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
nerdgirl 0
QuoteYou mean BARACK OBAMA AND JOE BIDEN’S PLAN FOR UNIVERSAL VOLUNTARY CITIZEN SERVICE?
If it is universal, it is NOT voluntary.
What specifically do you see as non-voluntary in there? (You had to know I would read the primary data.
) Section IV includes a number of components that I would have thought you would have supported?
President Bush created the President's Volunteer Service Awards, which I earned in 2005 & 2006 (perhaps ironically, the volunteer judging I do for the Army's science fair program doesn't seem to count unless you are a federal employee, which doesn't stop me from doing it), and the USA Freedom Corps.
/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
quade 3
QuoteGoing on the premise of something given has no value.
BTW, stupid premise.
Life is given and not earned. Does that mean it has no value?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
tkhayes 124
ABSOLUTELY not
And for that matter, they should remove the 'voting registration process' completely. It denies citizens the right to vote.
The laws vary from place to place, and even within those laws the standards differ from county to county. Basically, since that system appears to not work well for all people, it needs to be scrapped.
You are allowed to vote by your very proof of citizenship. Prove you are a citizen and therefore you have the right to vote - end of discussion.
I like the blue thumb ink thingy..... go vote and get dyed.
And for that matter, they should remove the 'voting registration process' completely. It denies citizens the right to vote.
The laws vary from place to place, and even within those laws the standards differ from county to county. Basically, since that system appears to not work well for all people, it needs to be scrapped.
You are allowed to vote by your very proof of citizenship. Prove you are a citizen and therefore you have the right to vote - end of discussion.
I like the blue thumb ink thingy..... go vote and get dyed.
QuoteGoing on the premise of something given has no value.
Should the right to vote be changed to a privilege for those who have completed X amount of community/state/federal service? I.E. military service, public servants, community organizers, or anybody that gives back something of which has been provided for them.
The top 5% of income earners do a lot more for our country, shouldering 60% of the tax burden to pay for all those government employees and spending packages. You could draw the line at the top 10% (70%) or 25% (85%) if you preferred.
People who won't suffer directly from out of control spending (like the third of American workers who have no income tax laibility, or even the bottom 50% of the population who shoulder just 3% of the burden) being able to control it tick me off. I'd suggest that we weight votes by tax dollars contributed to the government if I didn't think the tax payers would exploit the other citizens in non-monetary ways. If nothing else that would be more democratic - right now you only really get heard if you're wealthy enough to buy lobbyists or media coverage.
Entrepeneurs also do more for our country, creating jobs so the babies being born will have something to do other than being dependant on their parents for the remainder of their lives.
Orthopaedic surgeons are great. More people would be crippled if we didn't have doctors who could bolt us back together after accidents.
A few American artists of various sorts enrich us in other ways.
QuoteI'd suggest that we weight votes by tax dollars contributed to the government
Hi... the 1800's called. They said you forgot about about being a male caucasian as well as a land owner.
www.FourWheelerHB.com
mpohl 1
Absolutely!
As a PhD/MBA, my vote should count at least 1,000 of your uneducated BS/MS/LE asses.
Does that answer your ridiculous question?
As a PhD/MBA, my vote should count at least 1,000 of your uneducated BS/MS/LE asses.
Does that answer your ridiculous question?
QuoteGoing on the premise of something given has no value.
Should the right to vote be changed to a privilege for those who have completed X amount of community/state/federal service? I.E. military service, public servants, community organizers, or anybody that gives back something of which has been provided for them.
Discuss.
champu 1
QuoteWhat your analogy does illustrate, at least as I’m reading it, is the importance of protecting the rights of the minority because the majority may try to remove rights of the minority with which it disagrees or that it doesn’t think they’ve earned.
You inquired as to what sets voting aside from other rights, and you've boiled down my post very well (two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.)
But it's more than just that. The reason reciprocity breaks down on an individual level when it comes to voting, despite the fact that everyone gets one vote, is that the individuals on either side of the vote often have much different things at stake.
(Btw, I'm speaking more in terms of ballot measures than candidates, if that wasn't obvious.)
GeorgiaDon 340
QuoteYou mean BARACK OBAMA AND JOE BIDEN’S PLAN FOR UNIVERSAL VOLUNTARY CITIZEN SERVICE?
If it is universal, it is NOT voluntary.
Well, let's see what's in this evil communist/Nazi plot:
• Encourage national service to address the great challenges of our time, including combating climate
change, extending health care, improving our schools and strengthening America overseas by showing
the world the best of our nation.
• Expand AmeriCorps to 250,000 slots and double the size of the Peace Corps.
• Integrate service-learning into our schools and universities to enable students to graduate college with as many as 17 weeks of service experience under their belts.
• Provide new service opportunities for working Americans and retirees.
• Expand service initiatives that engage disadvantaged young people and advance their education.
• Expand the capacity of nonprofits to innovate and expand successful programs across the country.
• Enable more Americans to serve in the armed forces.
Oops, I stand corrected! Americans being given an opportunity to volunteer to help other Americans! (Nothing about "mandatory" in the document you linked). It doesn't get more evil than that! Are all the real (i.e. non-liberal) Americans are just too busy looking out for their own self-interest?
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Then the same logic can be used to condemn Boy Scouts, etc.
It can sometimes be a matter of perspective: we have friends, a married couple, who immigrated together to the US from Ukraine back when it was still part of the USSR. Their children were born in the US. In the USSR, their equivalent to Boy/Girl Scouts was apparently a "junior paramilitary" organization that they felt was used by the govt to indoctrinate the country's kids to be Good and Obedient Little Soviets - and our friends hated that. So, here in the US, when their own kids inquired about joining the Cub Scouts, etc., they forbade it.
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