riddler 0 #1 February 19, 2009 Right now, DOW is at 7,509.12, The last time it was this low was around 1997, with a sharp drop after the .bust to about 7,528 in 2002. Is this the lowest the DOW has been in almost 12 years??Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #2 February 19, 2009 But but but...the bail-out...er...stimulus bill is supposed to fix everything...where did the nirvana of January 20th go??? So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,894 #3 February 19, 2009 >But but but...the bail-out...er...stimulus bill is supposed to fix everything.. Look at that! Another unsupported comment. Might you be quoting your old friend made of straw? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #4 February 19, 2009 Quote>But but but...the bail-out...er...stimulus bill is supposed to fix everything.. Look at that! Another unsupported comment. Might you be quoting your old friend made of straw? Unsupported? Every Democrat and the President are saying we cannot climb out of this recession without government intervention...even though, there is an effective track record of past intervention making matters worse. Even worse, these bills are not doing anything other than funding agendas... It took almost 100 years for the US to borrow its first Trillion dollars...Congress just did it overnight...again... The street is reacting to a clear, and inevitable problem of massive over-mandated, non-funded programs over the next several years, they are also reacting to the Fed's infusion of $8.5Tr in currency, without any collateral in the world's banks. The government is attacking its currency, economy and market system. It's going to prove amongst the first of several broken promises.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,236 #5 February 19, 2009 Governors Consider Turning Down Stimulus Money Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AWL71 0 #6 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuote>But but but...the bail-out...er...stimulus bill is supposed to fix everything.. Look at that! Another unsupported comment. Might you be quoting your old friend made of straw? Unsupported? Every Democrat and the President are saying we cannot climb out of this recession without government intervention...even though, there is an effective track record of past intervention making matters worse. Even worse, these bills are not doing anything other than funding agendas... It took almost 100 years for the US to borrow its first Trillion dollars...Congress just did it overnight...again... The street is reacting to a clear, and inevitable problem of massive over-mandated, non-funded programs over the next several years, they are also reacting to the Fed's infusion of $8.5Tr in currency, without any collateral in the world's banks. The government is attacking its currency, economy and market system. It's going to prove amongst the first of several broken promises. You are right, but don't bother confusing the Obama Drones with the the facts.The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #7 February 19, 2009 Quote It's going to prove amongst the first of several broken promises. What are you talking about. He's already kept his first promise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #8 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote>But but but...the bail-out...er...stimulus bill is supposed to fix everything.. Look at that! Another unsupported comment. Might you be quoting your old friend made of straw? Unsupported? Every Democrat and the President are saying we cannot climb out of this recession without government intervention...even though, there is an effective track record of past intervention making matters worse. Even worse, these bills are not doing anything other than funding agendas... It took almost 100 years for the US to borrow its first Trillion dollars...Congress just did it overnight...again... The street is reacting to a clear, and inevitable problem of massive over-mandated, non-funded programs over the next several years, they are also reacting to the Fed's infusion of $8.5Tr in currency, without any collateral in the world's banks. The government is attacking its currency, economy and market system. It's going to prove amongst the first of several broken promises. You are right, but don't bother confusing the Obama Drones with the the facts. So the Congressional leaders are "Obama Drones"? Facts: In less than six months, Congress has legislated spending of approximately $1.7Tr (before interest). Promises of accountability have resulted in none. I put this on former SecTreas Paulson, former President Bush, President Obama, the Speaker and Senate Majority leader. I said then, and I'll say again now, spending like this will not help, and it will cost more than double anything that is stated...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #9 February 19, 2009 Quote Facts: In less than six months, Congress has legislated spending of approximately $1.7Tr (before interest). Promises of accountability have resulted in none. I put this on former SecTreas Paulson, former President Bush, President Obama, the Speaker and Senate Majority leader. Well said. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #10 February 19, 2009 Lately I have tried to study all the angles on how to play the market in this new economy and the conclusion I have reached is that this is chiefly a mass psychological problem. No government stimulus program is going to help without the will of each individual consumer,company employee, banker ,and investor. We have to each try to mitigate the fear and stop focusing on the negative information because it is just that- numerical data that is driven by fear and fear alone. The banks are scared to lend,everyone is terrified as to the real value of the mortgage backed securities. No one wants to buy a home,employees are horrified by layoffs. Auto workers are scared that they will not be able to find alternate employment in case of bankruptcy. Every species on the planet has to adapt to new environmental conditions, So do we. Are there going to be casualties? Definitely, thats life in the real world. I think we and other extreme sports people can use this opportunity to help show everyone around us how to handle fear and rise above it, just like we do on every skydive. Thats the only way to stem the tide of this depression- Stop the domino effect of economic fear by word and deed on every level.Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piper17 1 #11 February 19, 2009 The banks are not "scared to lend"; they just don't want to lend to those who cannot or will not repay loans. Lending to people who had absolutely no chance of making their mortgage payments had a lot to do with getting our economy into the mess that it is in today. Continuing this practice of lending money to poor credit risks is not the way to get the economy turned around. There is a reason that people have to QUALIFY" for loans - the have to demonstrate that they have the ability to repay them. Didn't someone say that the definition of insanity was continuing to do the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Evidently, the word hasn't gotten to Barney Franks, Chris Dodd, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barack Obama, et al."A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,894 #12 February 19, 2009 >Every Democrat and the President are saying we cannot climb out of >this recession without government intervention.. Ah, so now you're changing your claim! That's much closer to what they are actually saying, which is that this bill will speed the recovery. >Even worse, these bills are not doing anything other than funding agendas. So you oppose the tax cuts it contains? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #13 February 19, 2009 Quote>Every Democrat and the President are saying we cannot climb out of >this recession without government intervention.. Ah, so now you're changing your claim! That's much closer to what they are actually saying, which is that this bill will speed the recovery. >Even worse, these bills are not doing anything other than funding agendas. So you oppose the tax cuts it contains? You likely make good money I'm assuming.... what percent are you paying now? what percent will you pay after? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 422 #14 February 19, 2009 Quote Lately I have tried to study all the angles on how to play the market in this new economy and the conclusion I have reached is that this is chiefly a mass psychological problem. No government stimulus program is going to help without the will of each individual consumer,company employee, banker ,and investor. Permanent tax cuts across the board for businesses and individuals would do just that. Companies re-invest and expand when they have more capital, and consumers spend when they are confident they will be able to keep their jobs. Where does that confidence come from? It comes from knowing businesses are expanding, assuring demand for labor and the potential for upward mobility. Unfortunately, the current bunch controlling the laws of the country aren't in the business of fixing anything. What is happening right now is an effort to massively shift the social make-up of the nation. A shift to socialism, that is. Taking from the most productive to give to the lazy. If you're looking for a market play, go with companies that will be contracted for all the infrastructure stuff, green companies that are getting chunks of the stimuloot package - and a bunch of gold for when the dollar collapses.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #15 February 19, 2009 >There is a reason that people have to QUALIFY" for loans - the have to demonstrate that they have the ability to repay them. So who are these people and why are they not lining up for a loan? Answer: Not many of them QUALIFY due to a fear based lending protocols newly created because of sub prime lending practices. So now they are going to clam up after receiving all the tarp money given to them by the previous administration? Clam up even though the Fed has reduced the prime rate they pay to 0? Capitalism is risky by nature, will some borrowers default YES! thats the way it has always been. The banks have to hike up their skirts and start taking risks to get things going again. They are afraid to take on any risk You know an economic system that does not require risk taking? it's called Socialism- the very system you despise.Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #16 February 20, 2009 >A shift to socialism, that is. Taking from the most productive to give to the lazy. you mean like GM? Look I get it ,supporters of the Bush administration are pissed off and would like to see this administration fail at all costs even if the country is destroyed beyond anything that a small terrorist cell could perform. Thats human nature, some people would cut off their nose to spite their face. Politics and partisanship as usual. It takes guts to accept change and there is going to be some suffering like I said and like it or not we are heading into uncharted water some companies will not survive and some investments will be lost. >If you're looking for a market play, go with companies that will be contracted for all the infrastructure stuff, green companies that are getting chunks of the stimuloot package. Got that covered; ENER, First solar FSLR, Quanta PWR(a grid play) and believe it or not GE (turbines, water purification, grid, etc) but all these strategies mean NOTHING if people start flocking to GOLD and taking cover like a bunch of school children.Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,894 #17 February 20, 2009 >Permanent tax cuts across the board for businesses and individuals >would do just that. Until a democrat proposes one, that is. Then you will scream about how horrible it is that they're bankrupting the government. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 422 #18 February 20, 2009 Quote>Permanent tax cuts across the board for businesses and individuals >would do just that. Until a democrat proposes one, that is. Then you will scream about how horrible it is that they're bankrupting the government. Bill - the forum doesn't need the attitude, and you really don't give people that don't share your view - me in this case - any credit at all. Not sure why your first instinct is to polarize, but it's not necessary. I think we will get more out of it by discussing the issue rather than discussing the people discussing the issue. Back on point, I don't care who proposes tax cuts. Tax cuts work. That's all I need to know. There's so much more going on with this whole stimulus stuff than meets the eye that it's sickening. The government - both sides - have been and are sticking up our asses, and the current administration is no different. Mr. Obama is just doing it on steroids and disguised as a stimulus package. This plan will bury this country. Hell, even Vladimir Putin has come out warning Obama to steer another direction or risk repeating the history of the Soviet Union post WWII. Think about that. China has issued a similar statement. Think about that. Cut taxes and get out of the way of hard working Americans and American businesses. That is the most sure-fire way to put the economy back on track. That will get my support no matter who gets it done.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,894 #19 February 20, 2009 >Back on point, I don't care who proposes tax cuts. Tax cuts work. That's >all I need to know. Fair enough. Do you support the ~$300 billion in tax cuts in the stimulus package, then? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 422 #20 February 20, 2009 Quote>Back on point, I don't care who proposes tax cuts. Tax cuts work. That's >all I need to know. Fair enough. Do you support the ~$300 billion in tax cuts in the stimulus package, then? Given the idealogical differences between me and the administration, I'll take what I can get. But overall, I don't think it means much. There are "tax cuts" in the form of welfare, which I disagree with on its face. We can debate whether giving people who don't pay taxes a check is stimulus or not, but it's apauling that it's being called a tax cut. That's just dishonest. From what I have read, the "average" American taxpayer will see an 8 to 13 dollar weekly difference in their paychecks. Not exactly stimulative. Only 1/3 of 1% of the cuts go to the small business sector. That doesn't make any sense when you consider small businesses employ a whopping 70% of all American workers. Selective tax cuts - however well meaning - disrupt the free market system, which always results in an induced imbalance that requires more manipulation. Across the board tax cuts stimulate the free market system without altering its natural tendency to seek balance between cost and value, and supply and demand. Tax cuts yes, but across the board.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #21 February 20, 2009 QuoteSo you oppose the tax cuts it contains? You call $13 a week a tax cut? Oh yeah! Thats gonna help.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #22 February 20, 2009 QuoteThe banks are not "scared to lend"; they just don't want to lend to those who cannot or will not repay loans. Lending to people who had absolutely no chance of making their mortgage payments had a lot to do with getting our economy into the mess that it is in today. Continuing this practice of lending money to poor credit risks is not the way to get the economy turned around. There is a reason that people have to QUALIFY" for loans - the have to demonstrate that they have the ability to repay them. Didn't someone say that the definition of insanity was continuing to do the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Evidently, the word hasn't gotten to Barney Franks, Chris Dodd, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barack Obama, et al. I don't believe any congressionperson forced any bank to lend to unqualified individuals. The banks managed to do that all by themselves. AND before you start again on the CRA, CRA loans had nothing to do with this mess.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #23 February 20, 2009 Quote>Back on point, I don't care who proposes tax cuts. Tax cuts work. That's >all I need to know. Fair enough. Do you support the ~$300 billion in tax cuts in the stimulus package, then? Do you realize the actual magnitude of the tax cuts you keep trying to throw in people's faces? $13 a week for the next year. Then it drops to $8. Good luck convincing people to buy a house or car on $32 a month. The small business tax break was raped from $64B down to about $4B before the bill was signed. Pick a new argument. Edited: I posted before I saw the last two people pointing out the same thing. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #24 February 20, 2009 QuoteYou call $13 a week a tax cut? Oh yeah! Thats gonna help. Are you claiming that a $676 annual tax reduction is insignificant?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #25 February 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou call $13 a week a tax cut? Oh yeah! Thats gonna help. Are you claiming that a $676 annual tax reduction is insignificant? In terms of stimulating the economy? Yes. That number is pretty optomistic considering it drops to $8 starting in January. What additional long term spending do you feel comfortable doing with an extra $416 a year? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
